Attempted coup d' etat underway in Venezuela.

Discussion in 'Latin America' started by Angelo, Apr 30, 2019.

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  1. emilynghiem
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    emilynghiem Constitutionalist / Universalist Supporting Member

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    From what I learned about the Iraqi Sanctions, this approach
    still hurts the people used as collective collateral damage for political pressure.
    (The Iraqi Sanctions were so devastating, the losses of life were worse than the war.
    5000 infants and children were reported dying per month from Sanctions, though this
    number was underreported because infants were harder to verify and count. Source for
    this was the Iraqi Notebook, Houston Peace News, that compiled reports from other sources)

    To prevent from having to resort to such extreme measures that harm the very people intended to defend, what countries need to do when their population grows this diverse in political groupings is form coalitions similar to the Congress having reps from STATES but have reps from PARTIES. The same way we don't need states fighting each other, we don't need parties causing civil wars. So why not have a union of sovereign parties governing their own members the way we recognize sovereign states under a unified national govt at the same time?

    Then these parties can have facilitation and assistance with conflict resolution so these groups can address and mediate conflicts, either agreeing to resolve or to separate on issues they cannot settle otherwise. If we have such structures in place, then BEFORE conflict escalates into coercion, abuse and war, then additional help can be brought in to consult with the reps that are established already and try to salvage the diplomatic process BEFORE it escalates beyond the point of no return. This would preserve their leadership without threat, by MEDIATION which protects the rights and interests of parties in representing and forming their own solution. NOT IMPOSING by one group over others, or by outside influence or coercion.

    But we'd have to set up a recognized party representation BEFORE that, not wait until it goes too far,
    and then scramble to find which people or parties represent which groups. Under pressure, that
    process never works but people compromise for expedience
    and don't find the right leaders who could have untangled the messes.

    America could also use our current party system to set up reps per District by party
    to participate in conflict resolution and proposing position statements to Congress.

    Why wait until elections to fight it out. Why not have a regular process for redressing
    grievances and solving conflicts directly between opposing factions and parties we already know exist?
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2019
  2. Eric Arthur Blair
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    Eric Arthur Blair Gold Member

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    The argument against sanctions is like the argument against God: I agree the idea of God is somewhat absurd but the alternative...a universe that just somehow happens to exist is even more absurd.

    That is...sanctions are painful but leaving Maduro untouched, and with Putin's backing, may be even more painful and certainly more long lasting for the people of Venezuela.

    A brief military action by a coalition led military force might be the best option if the fighting were surgically applied but
    most people oppose the idea so for the people of Venezuela the choice might be dying a long painful death or perhaps a quick short one. Tragic but there are no good options when a butcher seizes power.
     
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  3. emilynghiem
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    emilynghiem Constitutionalist / Universalist Supporting Member

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    Dear Eric Arthur Blair
    Yes and no. There are time such as in military tactics,
    soldiers such as Chris Kyle end up having to shoot children used to kill more people.

    We would all agree the ideal is to prevent from having to go that far in the first place.

    Sure more people would die if we don't take action.
    But we still should seek to prevent people from dying at all if we took action sooner
    in more effective ways than having to resort to sanctions against such a corrupt
    govt that it is going to kill its own people.

    This is like negotiating with terrorists or kidnappers trying not to lose hostages.
    We don't want to win at the expense of too many hostages dying to win that standoff.

    What Betty Williams lobbied for as a Nobel Laureate from Ireland,
    is to set up safe havens for moving women, children and civilians out of the way
    before you resort to wars between the military personnel agreeing to engage in battles.

    The equivalent with sanctions is to set up safe outlets for the populations to
    receive aid, while negotiations are made with the corrupt group being targeted.
    And don't mix the collective population with the bad guys any more than
    police should be shooting the hostages to get to the bank robbers.

    The beauty of this solution is by the time we organize that well,
    we should prevent and solve the problem of corruption that hides behind people in mass.

    We set up transparency that would prevent sanctions.
    and this means we set up transparency that prevents abuse, corruption and war from escalating to that point in the first place.
     
  4. Eric Arthur Blair
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    Eric Arthur Blair Gold Member

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    Maduro has blocked all entry to Colombia from Venezuela effectively cutting off humanitarian aid to people who fled there
    because it (the aid) could not be distributed under Maduro's dictatorship in Venezuela.
    Like I said I'm afraid there are no good solutions for the people left in Venezuela. Putin has complicated everything.

    Perhaps applying pressure on Russia to take in Maduro in exile but I doubt Putin will want to let go of access to the oil there.
    If you have a good solution let everyone know.
     
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  5. emilynghiem
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    emilynghiem Constitutionalist / Universalist Supporting Member

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    If the government connections are cut off,
    that's where I would look for where there are spiritual
    connections. I would have to know which people "on the inside" have connections and influence with Maduro.

    With Saddam Hussein, his top general was a God fearing Christian man that Hussein respected. What is the equivalent in this situation?

    In conflicts as much as there is triangulation, and someone like Putin benefiting from worsening the conflict; there is also some position or person of influence who if given more support can have the opposite effect and diffuse the pressure.

    Like I said before, we should not wait until conflicts escalate to this degree, because then there's too much pressure and it's harder to find those connections. This ideally should be done in advance. In communities I saw destroyed by bigger bullies there were ALWAYS local leaders with enough community support that if they had gotten proper support, none of the destruction would happen. Where are those connections WITHIN the community, that's where the solution lies. Among the very people on the inside who have been fighting these battles on the ground and have survived for a reason. Where are they and how do we support them?
     
  6. longknife
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    longknife Diamond Member

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    I read where China is flying in medical supplies. No word on how they're going to be disseminated or to whom.
     
  7. emilynghiem
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    emilynghiem Constitutionalist / Universalist Supporting Member

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    Well longknife and Eric Arthur Blair
    if Sanctions are the only way to get the politics out of it, and only the
    NONPROFIT charities such as Chinese medical support or groups
    like "Doctors without Borders" or Intl Red Cross can get in,
    that may be the closest to what I was saying about bypassing
    govt relations that got blocked.

    I said spiritual connections, but "humanitarian" connections
    would be the equivalent here, the NONPOLITICAL nongovernmental outreach
    that is truly universal for the sake of basic needs and NOTHING to do with taking political sides.

    THAT's the type of "connections" I am talking about working.

    And in the end, those are the "connections" that should be developed
    from the beginning to be the most stable and NOT tied in politically with who's in govt,
    and thus more sustainable in the long run.

    The COOPERATIVE approach to building social programs and economic base.
    My previous msgs are about focusing there IN ADVANCE to ensure stable
    growth and development, and not waiting until conflicts escalate to find out
    those connections aren't in place. By their very nature, those kind of sustainable
    programs would prevent the political and military messes. So the solution is self-defining and self-fulfilling.

    What we as Americans can learn from this is, again, that social programs are more
    stable, universal, and sustainable when they are INDEPENDENT of politically run govt.

    The access to health care and basic needs should NEVER be given up to "govt controls"
    because then people lose their leverage at the "mercy of govt", and govt power can be used against them, instead of people holding their own power OVER govt to keep govt in check.

    When people organize resources through their own nonprofit connections, then at any time a group changes, people can immediate ask help from a different group. You retain free choice,
    unlike going through national govt which can take years to pass reforms or vote in new admin through the election process. The nationalized level should be reserved for set functions that don't involve personal beliefs and individualized decisions such as health care and social programs requiring localized service and one-on-one relations to answer DIRECTLY to the people instead of going through govt as a bureaucratic middleman.

    We'll see if the Chinese aid gets through, or if other nonprofits can be nonpolitical enough to gain access.

    It could be the Venezuelan Govt only allows the Chinese Govt to help if they have the same philosophy. Thus, if Socialists want to form their own international network where they only trust each other's members and leaders, this would be similar to the Catholic church having an international network to get resources from one region to another through their organizations.

    If so, that should be up to the people to CHOOSE to be members of such a religious organizational network, or in this case a Political Religion if it's all Socialist Workers
    who want to unite and run their programs this way. The same way Catholics have a choice, or Muslims can choose their organizations and leaders to run them, the Socialists should respect freedom of choice as well for their members instead of forcing their regime on unwilling participants.

    Democratic Socialism could still work, but given this risk of corruption abuse and oppression, I would even more strongly recommend Constitutional checks and balances to be enforced by educating and empowering all the workers and members to share equal stake and responsibility in government. Especially if you are going to continue taking this risk of embedding the SOCIAL programs and health care into govt, it is absolutely KEY to ensure that people have as direct check and representation as possible. So it's even MORE critical to have Constitutional authority in place to check govt if you are going to implement Socialism!!
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2019
  8. Eric Arthur Blair
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    Eric Arthur Blair Gold Member

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    A nice trick if you can pull it off.
     
  9. P F Tinmore
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    P F Tinmore Diamond Member

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    The purpose of the coup is to put the oligarchs back in power. This is never a good thing.
     
  10. P F Tinmore
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    P F Tinmore Diamond Member

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    Despite Threats & No Electricity, Anti-Coup Activists Remain inside Venezuelan Embassy in D.C.

     

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