as always we got it backwards

[AllieBaba]

Great. Another fucking loon, or incredibly young and stupid, poster.

 

[AllieBaba]

I say we start drafting more asshats to come and post complete insane bullshit on this board. Those in agreement, say "aye".

 

[Xenophon]

Somebody drafted them, I doubt most of them found this board by accident.

 

[Borat]

very mature responses

i would expect nothing less from this forum

 

[Old Rocks]

In education, as in anything else, you get out of it what you put into it.

Most of the teachers that I have had to good fortune to learn under, from 1st grade through college, were underpaid and overworked. As my years of youth get more distant, I appreciate all the more the effort they expended trying to impart at least a little knowledge to me and all of their students.

As for no experiance in the real world, what do you call trying to meet the needs of thirty or more students? And in college, the men and women that I studied under, Geology major, had worldwide experiance, both in industry and research.

Given my experiance, I would say the problem is primarily in the students and parents attitudes toward the importance of education.

 

[Charles Stucker]

In education, as in anything else, you get out of it what you put into it.

That is a major part of the problem. Parents do not instill respect for teachers or learning and the children become uncontrollable monsters in class. All the while the same parents who disparage the system and fail to instill either basic courtesy or manners in their children press lawsuits anytime the school attempts to rectify the situation.

While many elementary education majors have few advanced skills, the problem stems as much from lack of decent pay for teachers as anything else. If students were properly behaved a class size of 35 would be reasonable for an elementary teacher, but as they are so poorly behaved the class size is cut, often as low as 20. The result is more teachers per student so less pay available per teacher. To get better teachers, get better students, or at least allow the schools to discipline ro expel students.

To the ignorant buffoon of an OP - compulsory education is not like drafting. Students go in the morning and return home in the afternoon. Soldiers go and don't return until their tour of duty is finished, for some several years, for others the rest of their lives.

If the OP doesn't enjoy being mocked for ignorance simply obtain some education.

 

[mdn2000]

Borat, I liked your post, I think you made some excellent points that most seem to have missed.

Teachers are failing, if the student failed to learn the teacher failed to teach.

The draft, students are forced to go to school yet citizens are not forced to teach, I never looked at teaching in this manner and I think its a good point to make.

 

[Charles Stucker]

Teachers are failing, if the student failed to learn the teacher failed to teach.

You can lead students to facts, but cannot make them think.

The argument that teachers have the sole responsibility to convey knowledge is ludicrous. Take a class of 30 college calculus students. 3 do nothing all semester long and receive a grade of F. 1 Had no ability to perform basic algebra and learns nothing in the class and thus receives a grade of F. The other 26 master enough knowledge that 6 make C's, 11 make b's and 9 earn A's.
Did the teacher "fail to teach" or did the students who failed, fail to learn?
26 students did learn, some better than others.

Introduce social promotion to a lower level class, say 5th grade arithmetic. Now a class of 22 (size limit in Texas) has 4 brain damaged students, forced in by the "no child left behind" slogan, and 16 lazy cretins who have seen that all they need do is attend class to get by, and 2 actual students who make some sort of effort.
2 students learn the material.
Whose fault is it?
The 16 lazy cretins and their inattentive parents are the prime culprits, though the administration and political leaders who placed the teacher in such an impossible situation share much of the blame. The 4 brain damaged students are not to blame as they have no chance. Equally the teacher cannot do anything with such a class except present the material in the manner required by the state and local board of education.

Students are not "Drafted" - they receive education for free from the community. It is compulsory to prevent abusive parents from sending the children to work in the fields or coal mines or wherever instead of gaining an education.

Some idiots should try learning a little history before they equate compulsory education with a draft.

 

[rdean]

the best and brightest students are obligated to sit in class and listen to lectures from some doofus who simply decided that he didn't want to fight for jobs in the real world and decided to take a union job babbling as a teacher.

then we sit around and wonder why does education suck ? well for one thing because education was never supposed to not suck ( but this is a completely separate topic that i won't get into here ). in this thread i simply wanted to offer a solution to the problem.

instead of students being obligated to learn it is the teachers that should be obligated to teach. teachers should be DRAFTED the same way soldiers are when the country is attacked.

only the most successful people should be drafted to teach and only people with at least 10 years of experience working in the REAL WORLD.

so somebody like bill gates might get drafted. he would then be given a choice where and what he wanted to teach but he wouldn't be given a choice whether or not he wanted to teach.

the job would only be part time such that a person would be able to continue with his real-life career ( as it should be recognized that teaching is not and cannot be a career any more than writing on an online forum can be considered a career ) and there would be NO PAY. there would be tax breaks however.

so bill gates maybe would choose to go back to Harvard to teach there. NOBODY should be exempt from this mazafaka. Bill Clinton might be drafted and he would teach pimpology. Lower level people would end up teaching high schools etc, but there wouldn't be a single teacher in ANY school no matter how shitty who wasn't objectively successful in life prior to becoming a teacher.

students on the other hand would NOT be required to attend school. if you would rather sell crack than be in class - knock yourself out.

you see real learning only comes from curiosity. you cannot be forced to learn any more than you can be forced to love. we have this horrible illusion that we can take the stupidest people and force the most intelligent people to learn from them. this is absurd. it doesn't work because it cannot work.

it is the stupid people who crave to teach. intelligent people crave to learn. intelligent people don't need to be forced to learn and stupid people won't learn anyway. intelligent people however have better things to do that teach others therefore teaching should in fact be compulsory.

without good teachers like without a good army the nation is fucked. a powerful nation like ours can afford not to draft soldiers because we already have the most powerful military in the world. but our education is shit and unless we do what i say in 50 years China will stomp all over us economically. then they will buy our own military to enslave us.

Tell me you're a Republican. Because you are too embarrassing to be a Democrat.

 

[mightypeon]

Well, there is a bit of a point in the question "Why is a minor a minor?".
I actually agree with the poster that, in many cases, it is moderatly hard to explain why basic civil rights are withheld from those under 18/21 but not from those other 18/21, especially in the US which has much less in the way of "Childs arent punished as hard because they arent responsible". I am not aware of the situation in the US, but in Germany inmates of an asylum have the right to vote. This does make claiming that children under 18/21 arent responsible enough to vote a bit difficult.
However, if someone would draft me into beeing a teacher, (although I wouldnt be adversed to teaching in general), I would not exactly be motivated in any way.
I would recommend a look at Switzerland. Teachers get aroun 4K Euro per month, and the Swiss (who actually have some fairly big immigrant populations for a country of their size) score quite high in education comparisons. Also, Swiss teachers have a signficant amount of respect for their profession in public, much more than teachers would have in Germany or the USA.

 

[mdn2000]

Teachers are failing, if the student failed to learn the teacher failed to teach.

You can lead students to facts, but cannot make them think.

The argument that teachers have the sole responsibility to convey knowledge is ludicrous. Take a class of 30 college calculus students. 3 do nothing all semester long and receive a grade of F. 1 Had no ability to perform basic algebra and learns nothing in the class and thus receives a grade of F. The other 26 master enough knowledge that 6 make C's, 11 make b's and 9 earn A's.
Did the teacher "fail to teach" or did the students who failed, fail to learn?
26 students did learn, some better than others.

Introduce social promotion to a lower level class, say 5th grade arithmetic. Now a class of 22 (size limit in Texas) has 4 brain damaged students, forced in by the "no child left behind" slogan, and 16 lazy cretins who have seen that all they need do is attend class to get by, and 2 actual students who make some sort of effort.
2 students learn the material.
Whose fault is it?
The 16 lazy cretins and their inattentive parents are the prime culprits, though the administration and political leaders who placed the teacher in such an impossible situation share much of the blame. The 4 brain damaged students are not to blame as they have no chance. Equally the teacher cannot do anything with such a class except present the material in the manner required by the state and local board of education.

Students are not "Drafted" - they receive education for free from the community. It is compulsory to prevent abusive parents from sending the children to work in the fields or coal mines or wherever instead of gaining an education.

Some idiots should try learning a little history before they equate compulsory education with a draft.

A teachers job is to teach, that is the goal, the objective, if a student does not learn the teacher failed. There are many reasons a student may fail yet you cannot disagree that no matter why a student fails is irrelevant to if the teacher succeded.

If the student failed to learn the teach also failed to teach that student. Maybe there is no way the teacher could of succeded, that does not matter. The teacher failed.

 

[Charles Stucker]

Maybe there is no way the teacher could of succeded, that does not matter. The teacher failed.

Would you care for some cheese and crackers to go with your fine whine?


Obviously you are totally divorced from the reality of teaching.
A teacher's job is to present the material in a manner conducive to learning. Once they accomplish that, it is the student's job to learn.
Some teacher's fail because they do not adequately present the material.
Most student's who fail manage to do so despite the teacher.

 

[mdn2000]

Maybe there is no way the teacher could of succeded, that does not matter. The teacher failed.

Would you care for some cheese and crackers to go with your fine whine?


Obviously you are totally divorced from the reality of teaching.
A teacher's job is to present the material in a manner conducive to learning. Once they accomplish that, it is the student's job to learn.
Some teacher's fail because they do not adequately present the material.
Most student's who fail manage to do so despite the teacher.

Would you like some deodorant for your foul smell?

 

[JakeStarkey]

CharlesStucker makes far more sense than does mdn2000.

mdn2000 apparently has never taught: whether in public or private school, Sunday School class, opportunity training in the military, success training in private industry, or anything else.

Otherwise, mdn2000 would not have made such a silly statement.

 

[mdn2000]

CharlesStucker makes far more sense than does mdn2000.

mdn2000 apparently has never taught: whether in public or private school, Sunday School class, opportunity training in the military, success training in private industry, or anything else.

Otherwise, mdn2000 would not have made such a silly statement.

If the student fails to learn the teacher failed to teach.

I learned this in a school that was teaching teaching, I was told it was my failure as a teacher if any of my students did not learn. It was my responisbility to teach, it is my job, my goal, my reason for being in such a position, if one person failed out of thirty I failed to teach that one person. It does not matter if the person had no intention on learning, it does not matter if the person was stoned on heroin, if a person is in my class and that person fails, I have failed to teach that child.

In a race you either win or lose, when you teach its the same thing, you win some and you lose some.

1st MarDiv NCO school, ENOUGH SAID

 

[JakeStarkey]

The senior NCO at 1stMarDiv NCO school should have a mental examination for aiding and betting such a code, and should be forced into retirement. People are going to get killed because of that stupidity. If one bases success on the % of student learning outcomes rather than correct process and product, one dumbs down the instruction. That is inevitable. I hope you are not buying into it. If you are the creator or aider and abettor of it, you should retire also.

 

[mdn2000]

The senior NCO at 1stMarDiv NCO school should have a mental examination for aiding and betting such a code, and should be forced into retirement. People are going to get killed because of that stupidity. If one bases success on the % of student learning outcomes rather than correct process and product, one dumbs down the instruction. That is inevitable. I hope you are not buying into it. If you are the creator or aider and abettor of it, you should retire also.

People are going to get killed, thats is the point.

As far as the rest of your post, I have stated what I know, you can contemplate what I have learned and form your opinion, either way, if someone dies because they failed to learn what I taught, its my failure, I failed to teach a soul who is lost forever.

People are going to get killed, I cannot disagree, teachers fail every day.

If teachers could be a 100% successful peace would rule the world.

 

[uscitizen]

the best and brightest students are obligated to sit in class and listen to lectures from some doofus who simply decided that he didn't want to fight for jobs in the real world and decided to take a union job babbling as a teacher.

then we sit around and wonder why does education suck ? well for one thing because education was never supposed to not suck ( but this is a completely separate topic that i won't get into here ). in this thread i simply wanted to offer a solution to the problem.

instead of students being obligated to learn it is the teachers that should be obligated to teach. teachers should be DRAFTED the same way soldiers are when the country is attacked.

only the most successful people should be drafted to teach and only people with at least 10 years of experience working in the REAL WORLD.

so somebody like bill gates might get drafted. he would then be given a choice where and what he wanted to teach but he wouldn't be given a choice whether or not he wanted to teach.

the job would only be part time such that a person would be able to continue with his real-life career ( as it should be recognized that teaching is not and cannot be a career any more than writing on an online forum can be considered a career ) and there would be NO PAY. there would be tax breaks however.

so bill gates maybe would choose to go back to Harvard to teach there. NOBODY should be exempt from this mazafaka. Bill Clinton might be drafted and he would teach pimpology. Lower level people would end up teaching high schools etc, but there wouldn't be a single teacher in ANY school no matter how shitty who wasn't objectively successful in life prior to becoming a teacher.

students on the other hand would NOT be required to attend school. if you would rather sell crack than be in class - knock yourself out.

you see real learning only comes from curiosity. you cannot be forced to learn any more than you can be forced to love. we have this horrible illusion that we can take the stupidest people and force the most intelligent people to learn from them. this is absurd. it doesn't work because it cannot work.

it is the stupid people who crave to teach. intelligent people crave to learn. intelligent people don't need to be forced to learn and stupid people won't learn anyway. intelligent people however have better things to do that teach others therefore teaching should in fact be compulsory.

without good teachers like without a good army the nation is fucked. a powerful nation like ours can afford not to draft soldiers because we already have the most powerful military in the world. but our education is shit and unless we do what i say in 50 years China will stomp all over us economically. then they will buy our own military to enslave us.

What are you, 4th silliest poster in Khazikstan?

The STATE should not be telling anybody to do anything, let along drafting people and forcing them into a profession.

Xeni would you deny that if tomorrow we were attacked by China most able men would be drafted to fight ?

LOL all China would have to do to whip our butts would just be to stop shipping stuff to us.

 

[Diuretic]

Schools prepare individuals for work. Their structure reflects society. If a society is full of unfairness, exploitation and hopelessness then why attacks schools? Best to attack the social situation and if that's changed then schools (and teachers) will follow.

 

[Charles Stucker]

If the student fails to learn the teacher failed to teach.

1st MarDiv NCO school

Yeah, because students in public schools so resemble marines.
A marine NCO can give PT as punishment.
The NCO can shout and stomp as much as desired.
The NCO has already had the brain damaged crack babies weeded out by the enlistment process and, unless he is in boot camp, by boot camp.
The NCO can have paychecks docked as punishment for refusal to follow orders.

Are you willing to give those freedoms to teachers in public schools?
No?
Then you cannot generalize from Marine NCO school to public primary school.
I'll restate - Students can fail to learn, even when the teacher did their job.