Arizona will require Obama to provide birth cert if he wants to be on ballot

[Immanuel]

When I first heard of the issue before the election, I will admit to wanting to see his proof and quite frankly, I am not happy that he told Americans to F' off when they asked. I have to provide proof of citizenship for any countless number of things, a candidate for POTUS should as well.

Gee, that's odd, I could have sworn he actually provided the proof needed. In fact, there is photographic evidence of this all over the internet. Would you like me to post some?

However, I must say, that I don't believe he could have gotten on the ballot without providing evidence of his eligibility. If there was a case for his birth being in Kenya, we would have known about it long before the elections. Also, maybe it is time we review those requirements. Maybe! Should someone who was born in Spain but lived here all of his life and considers himself an American be automatically disqualified from holding the office? I don't know the answer to that, just posing a question.

Immie

And this is all very reasonable of you. I do think the eligibility requirement for being a US Citizen has good reasons for being in place.

I also think that states need to respect the laws of other states in how they declare the citizenship of their own citizens.

How dare Arizona question the validity of the laws of the State of Hawaii. Especially after they were already approved by the Supreme court.

I saw an internet "copy" of a birth "certificate" which was and is not certified and there was no evidence that this even came from him. It is a copy of a Hawaiin birth certificate with his name on it... um, I'm not very good with Photoshop, but I imagine even I could have accomplished that task.

I recall him telling the country that he would not provide one. Basically he told the country... f' off.

I'm not claiming that anyone did that... I am only saying that he told the country to F' off... of course, he didn't use those words, but the translation was F' off.

And you should also note: that I said... when this issue first came to my attention!

Immie

 

[Yurt]

it is absolutely false that HI will not issue a copy of the long form. the electronic copy is only prima facie evidence, a copy of the original can and will be issued if requested by a person of interest, obama, someone in a paternal suit, or any court that has an interest as defined under HI code.

i've shown care the codes in the past and they are all online. i can't remember the exact codes, but it absolutely untrue HI will no longer issue the long form. at least last i checked about a year ago.

the comparison to christians or atheist is a complete non sequitor. i fail to see why the left is in an outrage over requiring someone to provide a copy of the original, which in any court, is the best evidence. for those over 21, when you buy alcohol, do you get all pissed off that you have to show your license? do you demand that the information on your license is private? i mean, you're showing it to a stranger. of course you don't, because you know you're over 21 and you have to show id to get the drinks. i fail to see what the problem is here. obama is a citizen, why is the outrage over a state requiring "id", if yoiu will, in order to be placed on the ballot? it is merely ensuring compliance with the US constitution.

 

[Vast LWC]

I saw an internet "copy" of a birth "certificate" which was and is not certified and there was no evidence that this even came from him. It is a copy of a Hawaiin birth certificate with his name on it... um, I'm not very good with Photoshop, but I imagine even I could have accomplished that task.

That was distributed and certified by the state of Hawaii. Should Hawaii have handed the birth certificate to everyone individually?

I recall him telling the country that he would not provide one. Basically he told the country... f' off.

I'm not claiming that anyone did that... I am only saying that he told the country to F' off... of course, he didn't use those words, but the translation was F' off.

And you should also note: that I said... when this issue first came to my attention!

Immie

He told the people who doubted the validity of the one he already provided that he would not provide additional proof.

Birthers are not "the country".

When asked to provide said documentation by the correct authority (the Supreme Court), he provided them with what was apparently satisfactory evidence.

Plus you do realize that if one is to say that the Supreme Court's decision on this matter is not a valid judgement, thus questioning the validity of the court itself, then the entire Bush Presidency was in fact an illegal usurpation of power.

 

[Immanuel]

When I first heard of the issue before the election, I will admit to wanting to see his proof and quite frankly, I am not happy that he told Americans to F' off when they asked. I have to provide proof of citizenship for any countless number of things, a candidate for POTUS should as well.

The thing is, Immie, he did provide proof. The Hawaii COLB that he demonstrated is what the everyone who is born in Hawaii gets as proof of birth. They don't issue the long copy. They retain it for their records.

Case in point, my mom was born in Hawaii. If she requested her Birth Certificate from the state of Hawaii, they would give her the COLB. I suppose if she pushed it, she could get the original, but then the state of Hawaii would lose oversite of the document and could not confirm that she was born there. That is the utility of the COLB. That's why it's a prima facia document.

That's why this was never a real legal issue. The very fact that a Hawaii state official had to go on record saying they had seen the actual document is already above and beyond the usual standard.

The waters have been sufficiently muddied by the birther who keep insisting that there is foul play, when there really is none.

They want to demand additional standards that are outside of the legal standards.

However, I must say, that I don't believe he could have gotten on the ballot without providing evidence of his eligibility. If there was a case for his birth being in Kenya, we would have known about it long before the elections. Also, maybe it is time we review those requirements. Maybe! Should someone who was born in Spain but lived here all of his life and considers himself an American be automatically disqualified from holding the office? I don't know the answer to that, just posing a question.

Immie

There is nothing wrong with the current requirements. Which is why this new bill in Arizona is just silly.

Most of this was addressed in my last post before I even read this.

I agree the "birthers" have muddied the waters too much. It is too late to do anything about this case now.

Whether or not there is nothing wrong with the current requirements is open for debate and I am not certain where I fall on the issue, yet.

Immie

 

[geauxtohell]

I saw an internet "copy" of a birth "certificate" which was and is not certified and there was no evidence that this even came from him. It is a copy of a Hawaiin birth certificate with his name on it... um, I'm not very good with Photoshop, but I imagine even I could have accomplished that task.

Yeah, there's been a lot of white noise about the issue. There's also been a lot of forgeries of documents from Kenya that the birthers have held up as evidence and then been completely embarassed by.

I recall him telling the country that he would not provide one. Basically he told the country... f' off.

I don't think he's ever chimed in on it either way. The campaign provided a copy of COLB that was varified, twice, by the state of HI. Thus, satisfying the legal requirements for proof of birth.

I'm not claiming that anyone did that... I am only saying that he told the country to F' off... of course, he didn't use those words, but the translation was F' off.

I think it was a tacet statement to the birthers to "F' off". They don't get special dispensation to make new laws and standards simply because they are paranoid.

 

[Yurt]

I saw an internet "copy" of a birth "certificate" which was and is not certified and there was no evidence that this even came from him. It is a copy of a Hawaiin birth certificate with his name on it... um, I'm not very good with Photoshop, but I imagine even I could have accomplished that task.

That was distributed and certified by the state of Hawaii. Should Hawaii have handed the birth certificate to everyone individually?

I recall him telling the country that he would not provide one. Basically he told the country... f' off.

I'm not claiming that anyone did that... I am only saying that he told the country to F' off... of course, he didn't use those words, but the translation was F' off.

And you should also note: that I said... when this issue first came to my attention!

Immie

He told the people who doubted the validity of the one he already provided that he would not provide additional proof.

Birthers are not "the country".

When asked to provide said documentation by the correct authority (the Supreme Court), he provided them with what was apparently satisfactory evidence.

Plus you do realize that if one is to say that the Supreme Court decision on this matter is not a valid judgement, thus questioning the validity of the court itself, then the entire Bush Presidency was in fact an illegal usurpation of power.

link...i know of no court decision deciding whether he is or is not eligible

link to the decision and link to the request by the court to see documentation

 

[Vast LWC]

it is absolutely false that HI will not issue a copy of the long form. the electronic copy is only prima facie evidence, a copy of the original can and will be issued if requested by a person of interest, obama, someone in a paternal suit, or any court that has an interest as defined under HI code.

i've shown care the codes in the past and they are all online. i can't remember the exact codes, but it absolutely untrue HI will no longer issue the long form. at least last i checked about a year ago.

the comparison to christians or atheist is a complete non sequitor. i fail to see why the left is in an outrage over requiring someone to provide a copy of the original, which in any court, is the best evidence. for those over 21, when you buy alcohol, do you get all pissed off that you have to show your license? do you demand that the information on your license is private? i mean, you're showing it to a stranger. of course you don't, because you know you're over 21 and you have to show id to get the drinks. i fail to see what the problem is here. obama is a citizen, why is the outrage over a state requiring "id", if yoiu will, in order to be placed on the ballot? it is merely ensuring compliance with the US constitution.

Perhaps the original copy was lost by the issuing hospital. Who knows, and who cares?

The state of Hawaii has validated Obama's birthplace. Any attempt to contradict the authority of the state of Hawaii infringes on their rights as a state.

In this case it also calls into question the citizenship of anyone born in the state of Hawaii.

Since the Supreme Court has already ruled on the case, the matter is closed. Period.

 

[Immanuel]

That's not unconstitutional. Matter of fact, the US Constitution already requires the President to be born in the US. How else would you go about proving you were born in the US without a birth certificate?

It is most certainly unconstitutional to ask for additional proof than that already provided by the State of Hawaii and approved by the Supreme Court.

Arizona would essentially be questioning the citizenship of the entire population of the state of Hawaii, by not accepting Hawaii's documenting procedures.

That's assuming that AZ rejects the COLB issued by the State of Hawaii as proof of citizenship.

But yeah, if the "long form" is required and the State-issued, certified COLB is denied, it's a full faith and credit violation.

Providing an actual "hard copy" of the document is not the same as providing an "internet copy" of the same document.

As an example, when I request my transcripts from school, they come in a sealed envelop that says "Official Transcripts". The moment I open that envelop those transcripts are no longer official.

Immie

 

[Yurt]

it is absolutely false that HI will not issue a copy of the long form. the electronic copy is only prima facie evidence, a copy of the original can and will be issued if requested by a person of interest, obama, someone in a paternal suit, or any court that has an interest as defined under HI code.

i've shown care the codes in the past and they are all online. i can't remember the exact codes, but it absolutely untrue HI will no longer issue the long form. at least last i checked about a year ago.

the comparison to christians or atheist is a complete non sequitor. i fail to see why the left is in an outrage over requiring someone to provide a copy of the original, which in any court, is the best evidence. for those over 21, when you buy alcohol, do you get all pissed off that you have to show your license? do you demand that the information on your license is private? i mean, you're showing it to a stranger. of course you don't, because you know you're over 21 and you have to show id to get the drinks. i fail to see what the problem is here. obama is a citizen, why is the outrage over a state requiring "id", if yoiu will, in order to be placed on the ballot? it is merely ensuring compliance with the US constitution.

Perhaps the original copy was lost by the issuing hospital. Who knows, and who cares?

The state of Hawaii has validated Obama's birthplace. Any attempt to contradict the authority of the state of Hawaii infringes on their rights as a state.

In this case it also calls into question the citizenship of anyone born in the state of Hawaii.

Since the Supreme Court has already ruled on the case, the matter is closed. Period.

it is absolutely untrue that the original is lost, HI claims to have it and no one has ever claimed to have lost the original, pure conjecture on your part and really, unnecessary spin.

also, i want to see a link to this case that ruled obama is eligible...i keep hearing this rumor and everytime i ask for a link i get cases that never ruled on his eligibility, rather, only ruled the person bringing the suit lacks standing

edit: it does not infringe on HI to demand a copy of the orginal, all we have is pure hearsay

 

[geauxtohell]

Providing an actual "hard copy" of the document is not the same as providing an "internet copy" of the same document.

The internet copy was just for the general public. If this AZ bill goes anywhere, then they will get a paper copy of the COLB per their request. If they try and demand the "vault copy", then they will most likely be told by the state of Hawaii to piss off.

 

[Yurt]

Providing an actual "hard copy" of the document is not the same as providing an "internet copy" of the same document.

The internet copy was just for the general public. If this AZ bill goes anywhere, then they will get a paper copy of the COLB per their request. If they try and demand the "vault copy", then they will most likely be told by the state of Hawaii to piss off.

actually, i believe it requires the candidate to secure a copy of the original, which obama can do

 

[Vast LWC]

link...i know of no court decision deciding whether he is or is not eligible

link to the decision and link to the request by the court to see documentation

The case was presented to the Supreme Court and the Court threw it out based on the fact that they had been provided with sufficient evidence to the contrary that the case had no credibility.

 

[Immanuel]

I saw an internet "copy" of a birth "certificate" which was and is not certified and there was no evidence that this even came from him. It is a copy of a Hawaiin birth certificate with his name on it... um, I'm not very good with Photoshop, but I imagine even I could have accomplished that task.

Yeah, there's been a lot of white noise about the issue. There's also been a lot of forgeries of documents from Kenya that the birthers have held up as evidence and then been completely embarassed by.

I recall him telling the country that he would not provide one. Basically he told the country... f' off.

I don't think he's ever chimed in on it either way. The campaign provided a copy of COLB that was varified, twice, by the state of HI. Thus, satisfying the legal requirements for proof of birth.

I'm not claiming that anyone did that... I am only saying that he told the country to F' off... of course, he didn't use those words, but the translation was F' off.

I think it was a tacet statement to the birthers to "F' off". They don't get special dispensation to make new laws and standards simply because they are paranoid.

When the State of Hawaii made the statement that they had the evidence was about the time that I decided that it was time to drop the issue.

Until that time, I was suspicious.

As I said in my first post, every candidate should be required to provide proof of eligibility. I believe President Obama did to those that were entitled to the proof.

Immie

 

[del]

Arizona Republicans are afraid Obama is going to win their State. Heck, he almost took it from McCain. Bush stole Tennessee from Gore just like he stole Florida and Ohio. Little known fact.

little known = non existent


sealy, you're worth the price of admission

 

[geauxtohell]

Providing an actual "hard copy" of the document is not the same as providing an "internet copy" of the same document.

The internet copy was just for the general public. If this AZ bill goes anywhere, then they will get a paper copy of the COLB per their request. If they try and demand the "vault copy", then they will most likely be told by the state of Hawaii to piss off.

actually, i believe it requires the candidate to secure a copy of the original, which obama can do

Then I suspect Gold is right when she doubts they will be successful due to the faith and credit clause.

AZ can't compel a different state to change it's policies.

 

[Immanuel]

I saw an internet "copy" of a birth "certificate" which was and is not certified and there was no evidence that this even came from him. It is a copy of a Hawaiin birth certificate with his name on it... um, I'm not very good with Photoshop, but I imagine even I could have accomplished that task.

Yeah, there's been a lot of white noise about the issue. There's also been a lot of forgeries of documents from Kenya that the birthers have held up as evidence and then been completely embarassed by.

I don't think I have seen any of the forged Kenyan documents, but I must admit to having dropped the issue way down on my radar a long time ago.

Immie

 

[geauxtohell]

I saw an internet "copy" of a birth "certificate" which was and is not certified and there was no evidence that this even came from him. It is a copy of a Hawaiin birth certificate with his name on it... um, I'm not very good with Photoshop, but I imagine even I could have accomplished that task.

Yeah, there's been a lot of white noise about the issue. There's also been a lot of forgeries of documents from Kenya that the birthers have held up as evidence and then been completely embarassed by.



I don't think he's ever chimed in on it either way. The campaign provided a copy of COLB that was varified, twice, by the state of HI. Thus, satisfying the legal requirements for proof of birth.

I'm not claiming that anyone did that... I am only saying that he told the country to F' off... of course, he didn't use those words, but the translation was F' off.

I think it was a tacet statement to the birthers to "F' off". They don't get special dispensation to make new laws and standards simply because they are paranoid.

When the State of Hawaii made the statement that they had the evidence was about the time that I decided that it was time to drop the issue.

Until that time, I was suspicious.

As I said in my first post, every candidate should be required to provide proof of eligibility. I believe President Obama did to those that were entitled to the proof.

Immie

Right. And I don't blame him for not capitulating to the demands of the lunatic fringe. Once you open those flood gates the demands become more and more and get progressively bizarre.

The bottom line is this: the birthers are not interested in Justice. They are interested in trying to find a way to circumvent the will of the people after a legal election. Since they have no real recourse, they are left to grasp for straws.

 

[Vast LWC]

it is absolutely untrue that the original is lost, HI claims to have it and no one has ever claimed to have lost the original, pure conjecture on your part and really, unnecessary spin.

also, i want to see a link to this case that ruled obama is eligible...i keep hearing this rumor and everytime i ask for a link i get cases that never ruled on his eligibility, rather, only ruled the person bringing the suit lacks standing

edit: it does not infringe on HI to demand a copy of the orginal, all we have is pure hearsay

My point was not that it was lost or not.

It was that IT DOESN'T MATTER if it was lost or not. If it wasn't lost then Hawaii has it somewhere, if it was, then they don't, but still have the authority to verify his citizenship as his state of birth.

Are you trying to claim that Hawaii is not in fact a valid state? Are they some sort of foreign nation?

How dare you infringe on the state rights of Hawaii? Who the hell do you think you are?

 

[Immanuel]

Providing an actual "hard copy" of the document is not the same as providing an "internet copy" of the same document.

The internet copy was just for the general public. If this AZ bill goes anywhere, then they will get a paper copy of the COLB per their request. If they try and demand the "vault copy", then they will most likely be told by the state of Hawaii to piss off.

As I said, all candidates should have to provide evidence of eligibility.

For the record, I do not support this AZ bill.

Immie

 

[geauxtohell]

I saw an internet "copy" of a birth "certificate" which was and is not certified and there was no evidence that this even came from him. It is a copy of a Hawaiin birth certificate with his name on it... um, I'm not very good with Photoshop, but I imagine even I could have accomplished that task.

Yeah, there's been a lot of white noise about the issue. There's also been a lot of forgeries of documents from Kenya that the birthers have held up as evidence and then been completely embarassed by.

I don't think I have seen any of the forged Kenyan documents, but I must admit to having dropped the issue way down on my radar a long time ago.

Immie

It was pretty funny. Orly Taitz was running around claiming to have the "smoking gun".

It took people who looked at the document about 15 minutes to determine it was a forgery. Even the freepers had to admit it.

The "raised seal" was made by a coin.