Argument For The Death Penalty

[Montrovant]

What if, instead of the death penalty, convicted criminals in such capital crime cases received life sentences without the possibility of parole/release? While certainly the possibility of further murders exists within whatever prison houses them, the general public would remain safe from such criminals (barring the extremely rare successful escape).

As others have said, it isn't a question of whether certain individuals deserve execution. Rather, it is about the unfortunate problems with the justice system and the inherent fallibility of any system created and run by humans.

Life sentences without the possibility of parole/release is what I am talking about. Problems with it are:

1. Prisoners in prison kill other inmates (see my link). The other inmates may have violated laws enough to be in prison, but that doesn't mean it's OK for them to be bumped off, whenever one of these killer loons feels like it.

2. No, the general public does NOT remain safe from such criminals who are imprisoned. Not at all. Killers in prison can (and do) kill people outside the prison all the time, by ordering hits on people. This is especially true of gang leaders, who have a high rate of incarceration. There are thousands of them in prisons all across America.
Al Capone is thought to have killed over 100 people in just the 7 years he was imprisoned.

3. Prison escapes are not as rare as you might think (see my link - Post # 56)

4. As in the post where I gave an example (# 31), there is no fallibility is those cases. Those are the cases I am referring to.

How many cases do you think there are with absolutely no doubt?

 

[airplanemechanic]

For about the 10th time in this thread, I am only for the death penalty in cases of 100% positive guilt. If a killer murdered someone on the field, during the Super Bowl, in front of 60,000 people, and a billion on international TV, and there are score of videos showing it, I'd favor the death penalty.

1. And with that death penalty enacted in one years time from the killing, the cost would be one year incarceration, plus the cost of one bullet. Far less economically, than imprisoning someone for 50+ years.

2. Far less also , socially in terms of the lives that would be saved, by deterring the killer from killing again.

A List of Murderers Released to Murder Again!

You do realize that according to the DOJ, murderers have the lowest rate of recidivism, followed, believe it or not, by sex offenders?

Look it up.

 

[Montrovant]

For about the 10th time in this thread, I am only for the death penalty in cases of 100% positive guilt. If a killer murdered someone on the field, during the Super Bowl, in front of 60,000 people, and a billion on international TV, and there are score of videos showing it, I'd favor the death penalty.

1. And with that death penalty enacted in one years time from the killing, the cost would be one year incarceration, plus the cost of one bullet. Far less economically, than imprisoning someone for 50+ years.

2. Far less also , socially in terms of the lives that would be saved, by deterring the killer from killing again.

A List of Murderers Released to Murder Again!

You do realize that according to the DOJ, murderers have the lowest rate of recidivism, followed, believe it or not, by sex offenders?

Look it up.

I wonder how much of that has to do with the age at which they are released from prison?

 

[ChrisL]

For about the 10th time in this thread, I am only for the death penalty in cases of 100% positive guilt. If a killer murdered someone on the field, during the Super Bowl, in front of 60,000 people, and a billion on international TV, and there are score of videos showing it, I'd favor the death penalty.

1. And with that death penalty enacted in one years time from the killing, the cost would be one year incarceration, plus the cost of one bullet. Far less economically, than imprisoning someone for 50+ years.

2. Far less also , socially in terms of the lives that would be saved, by deterring the killer from killing again.

A List of Murderers Released to Murder Again!

You do realize that according to the DOJ, murderers have the lowest rate of recidivism, followed, believe it or not, by sex offenders?

Look it up.

I wonder how much of that has to do with the age at which they are released from prison?

I'm against the death penalty, but I am all for life without the possibility of parole. I don't think it's appropriate to grant a murderer parole, or a child molester. If a child molester can do THAT to a child, who knows what else they would be capable of doing?

 

[Montrovant]

For about the 10th time in this thread, I am only for the death penalty in cases of 100% positive guilt. If a killer murdered someone on the field, during the Super Bowl, in front of 60,000 people, and a billion on international TV, and there are score of videos showing it, I'd favor the death penalty.

1. And with that death penalty enacted in one years time from the killing, the cost would be one year incarceration, plus the cost of one bullet. Far less economically, than imprisoning someone for 50+ years.

2. Far less also , socially in terms of the lives that would be saved, by deterring the killer from killing again.

A List of Murderers Released to Murder Again!

You do realize that according to the DOJ, murderers have the lowest rate of recidivism, followed, believe it or not, by sex offenders?

Look it up.

I wonder how much of that has to do with the age at which they are released from prison?

I'm against the death penalty, but I am all for life without the possibility of parole. I don't think it's appropriate to grant a murderer parole, or a child molester. If a child molester can do THAT to a child, who knows what else they would be capable of doing?

I think it's a bit more complicated than that. There are many degrees to murder or child molestation, many different circumstances which might mitigate the crime or make it worse. What if someone is convicted of murder, but it happened during a drunken fight? What if someone catches a spouse cheating on them? What if the murderer believes their victim molested the murderer's child?

With molestation, what was the age of the offender and the child? What were the specific acts? Is there any previous history that would lead one to believe there is a pattern, a danger of repeat offenses?

Of course if we are talking about a contract killer or serial molester, things of that nature, I agree with you.

 

[ChrisL]

For about the 10th time in this thread, I am only for the death penalty in cases of 100% positive guilt. If a killer murdered someone on the field, during the Super Bowl, in front of 60,000 people, and a billion on international TV, and there are score of videos showing it, I'd favor the death penalty.

1. And with that death penalty enacted in one years time from the killing, the cost would be one year incarceration, plus the cost of one bullet. Far less economically, than imprisoning someone for 50+ years.

2. Far less also , socially in terms of the lives that would be saved, by deterring the killer from killing again.

A List of Murderers Released to Murder Again!

You do realize that according to the DOJ, murderers have the lowest rate of recidivism, followed, believe it or not, by sex offenders?

Look it up.

I wonder how much of that has to do with the age at which they are released from prison?

I'm against the death penalty, but I am all for life without the possibility of parole. I don't think it's appropriate to grant a murderer parole, or a child molester. If a child molester can do THAT to a child, who knows what else they would be capable of doing?

I think it's a bit more complicated than that. There are many degrees to murder or child molestation, many different circumstances which might mitigate the crime or make it worse. What if someone is convicted of murder, but it happened during a drunken fight? What if someone catches a spouse cheating on them? What if the murderer believes their victim molested the murderer's child?

With molestation, what was the age of the offender and the child? What were the specific acts? Is there any previous history that would lead one to believe there is a pattern, a danger of repeat offenses?

Of course if we are talking about a contract killer or serial molester, things of that nature, I agree with you.

True, but if someone harms a child, I would rather err on the side of caution and keep that person away from children at all costs.

 

[Montrovant]

For about the 10th time in this thread, I am only for the death penalty in cases of 100% positive guilt. If a killer murdered someone on the field, during the Super Bowl, in front of 60,000 people, and a billion on international TV, and there are score of videos showing it, I'd favor the death penalty.

1. And with that death penalty enacted in one years time from the killing, the cost would be one year incarceration, plus the cost of one bullet. Far less economically, than imprisoning someone for 50+ years.

2. Far less also , socially in terms of the lives that would be saved, by deterring the killer from killing again.

A List of Murderers Released to Murder Again!

You do realize that according to the DOJ, murderers have the lowest rate of recidivism, followed, believe it or not, by sex offenders?

Look it up.

I wonder how much of that has to do with the age at which they are released from prison?

I'm against the death penalty, but I am all for life without the possibility of parole. I don't think it's appropriate to grant a murderer parole, or a child molester. If a child molester can do THAT to a child, who knows what else they would be capable of doing?

I think it's a bit more complicated than that. There are many degrees to murder or child molestation, many different circumstances which might mitigate the crime or make it worse. What if someone is convicted of murder, but it happened during a drunken fight? What if someone catches a spouse cheating on them? What if the murderer believes their victim molested the murderer's child?

With molestation, what was the age of the offender and the child? What were the specific acts? Is there any previous history that would lead one to believe there is a pattern, a danger of repeat offenses?

Of course if we are talking about a contract killer or serial molester, things of that nature, I agree with you.

True, but if someone harms a child, I would rather err on the side of caution and keep that person away from children at all costs.

I think that's far too generalized a statement. Degrees of harm, circumstances in which the harm occurred, etc..

 

[ChrisL]

You do realize that according to the DOJ, murderers have the lowest rate of recidivism, followed, believe it or not, by sex offenders?

Look it up.

I wonder how much of that has to do with the age at which they are released from prison?

I'm against the death penalty, but I am all for life without the possibility of parole. I don't think it's appropriate to grant a murderer parole, or a child molester. If a child molester can do THAT to a child, who knows what else they would be capable of doing?

I think it's a bit more complicated than that. There are many degrees to murder or child molestation, many different circumstances which might mitigate the crime or make it worse. What if someone is convicted of murder, but it happened during a drunken fight? What if someone catches a spouse cheating on them? What if the murderer believes their victim molested the murderer's child?

With molestation, what was the age of the offender and the child? What were the specific acts? Is there any previous history that would lead one to believe there is a pattern, a danger of repeat offenses?

Of course if we are talking about a contract killer or serial molester, things of that nature, I agree with you.

True, but if someone harms a child, I would rather err on the side of caution and keep that person away from children at all costs.

I think that's far too generalized a statement. Degrees of harm, circumstances in which the harm occurred, etc..

I think a person who would victimize a child or an old person (or disabled - people who cannot fight back for whatever reason) are pretty rotten to the core, no matter what the "reason" for the assault.

 

[Searcher44]

The death penalty does not apply to rape or slashing someone's face

In PC's world smoking in a public place might be a Capital offence.

 

[Si modo]

You do realize that according to the DOJ, murderers have the lowest rate of recidivism, followed, believe it or not, by sex offenders?

Look it up.

I would imagine the lower sex offender recidivism rate is more due to low victim reporting rate than to actual offender recidivism.

 

[Montrovant]

I wonder how much of that has to do with the age at which they are released from prison?

I'm against the death penalty, but I am all for life without the possibility of parole. I don't think it's appropriate to grant a murderer parole, or a child molester. If a child molester can do THAT to a child, who knows what else they would be capable of doing?

I think it's a bit more complicated than that. There are many degrees to murder or child molestation, many different circumstances which might mitigate the crime or make it worse. What if someone is convicted of murder, but it happened during a drunken fight? What if someone catches a spouse cheating on them? What if the murderer believes their victim molested the murderer's child?

With molestation, what was the age of the offender and the child? What were the specific acts? Is there any previous history that would lead one to believe there is a pattern, a danger of repeat offenses?

Of course if we are talking about a contract killer or serial molester, things of that nature, I agree with you.

True, but if someone harms a child, I would rather err on the side of caution and keep that person away from children at all costs.

I think that's far too generalized a statement. Degrees of harm, circumstances in which the harm occurred, etc..

I think a person who would victimize a child or an old person (or disabled - people who cannot fight back for whatever reason) are pretty rotten to the core, no matter what the "reason" for the assault.

I disagree. I don't think a single bad act makes you a bad person any more than a single good one makes you a good person. Again, the circumstances are important.

 

[protectionist]

How can it be a deterrent after the fact ? The fact being that they have killed somebody and the death penalty did not deter them.

The death penalty is a punishment and not a deterrent.

You are are cheap, 2-bit PHONY. Your questions are not questions. hey are misleading lies. You know damn well how the death penalty can be a deterrent , and I never had to tell you (4 ? 5 times already ?) how. You know damn well you kill somebody, they don't kill again. The ones who weren't executed - some of them HAVE KILLED AGAIN. You're not going to get through this debate playing coy and pretending things. Point in fact - you already lost 2 days ago.

 

[protectionist]

Cases where the convicted person is 100% guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt? Some people have been convicted of crimes on very shoddy evidence.

I don't know how often it happens. "Often" isn't part of my discussion. My discussion pertains to those instances whenever the convicted person is 100% guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt, and within that limitation.

I will say that with the prolific use of cell phones, small camcorders, street cameras that seem to be popping up all over the place, the scenario I'm discussing, has become far more common that it used to be, In fact it is so common that a number of TV shows have been raking in advertising $$$ showing various types of crime videos, some of them unfortunately showing bad guys actually killing someone right in front of the camera. Nobody ever really made the case that bad guys are smart.

It's gotten to the point were it's almost difficult for criminals to commit a crime and NOT be on camera (even inside private homes)

 

[protectionist]

How many cases do you think there are with absolutely no doubt?

Just answered that in the previous post.

 

[Meathead]

Here's a toilet that took 40 year and a few lives to flush. Why?

Knight’s dark history

July 17, 1974 – Thomas Knight kidnaps and murders Sydney and Lillian Gans of Bay Harbor Islands. He is immediately arrested.

September 1974 – Knight and 10 other inmates escape from Dade County jail. He is placed on the FBI’s Ten Most Wanted List.

October 1974 – Police believe Knight and another man fatally shoot a liquor store clerk during a robbery for $641 in Crisp County, GA. He is not charged.

December 1974 – FBI agents capture Knight in New Smyrna Beach. He is found with a shotgun and two pistols, all stolen.

April 1976 – A Miami-Dade jury convicts Knight of murdering the couple. He is sentenced to death.

October 1980 – Using a sharpened spoon, Knight stabs and kills corrections Officer Richard Burke at the Florida State Prison in Starke.

March 1981 – Knight is scheduled to be executed after Gov. Lawton Chiles signs his death warrant. A federal judge stays his execution pending more appeals.

January 1983 – Knight is convicted and sentenced to death for the Burke murder.

January 1996 – A federal appeals court overturns his death sentence in the Gans case, ordering a new penalty phase trial.

February 1996 – After a new sentencing phase, Knight is again sentenced to death. He is repeatedly banned from the courtroom because of his disruptive behavior.

March 2006 – With state courts repeatedly affirming his conviction and sentence, Knight’s lawyers appeal to a Miami federal judge.

November 2012 – Six years after the appeal was first filed, Miami U.S. Judge Adalberto Jordan reverses Knight’s death sentence. He orders a new sentencing hearing or life sentences for the convict.

September 2013 – A federal appeals court reverses Judge Jordan, reinstating the death penalty for Knight. “To learn about the gridlock and inefficiency of death penalty litigation, look no further than this appeal,” the court writes.

October 2013 – Gov. Rick Scott signs death warrant for Knight, not for the Miami-Dade murders but for the slaying of Burke. The execution is scheduled for Dec. 3.

November 2013 – The Florida Supreme Court delays the execution, ordering a Bradford judge to hold a hearing to consider whether a new drug used in the lethal injection procedure constitutes cruel and unusual punishment.

December 2013 – The state’s high court lifts the stay of execution after ruling Knight has failed to prove the drug is unsafe. Gov. Rick Scott re-schedules the execution for Jan. 7.

Jacksonville.Com

"Florida executes Askari Abdullah Muhammad (Thomas Knight) for killing guard, couple,"

 

[protectionist]

You do realize that according to the DOJ, murderers have the lowest rate of recidivism, followed, believe it or not, by sex offenders?

Look it up.

Why would I look it up ? (when it's irrelevant) Do you want to go to the wife and kids of their murdered husband and father, and tell them that their father's death is part of a "lowest rate" ? What if one of a spared killer's victims was a member of YOUR family ? Brush it off as a "low rate" ?

It is the seriousness of the crimes (ie, RISK of more murder victims) that makes the death penalty justifiable, not the rate of their occurance. Recidivism of theft, prostitution, drug use, can be tolerated. Murder can't.

 

[Moonglow]

Genesis 9:6 “Whoever sheds human blood, by humans shall their blood be shed; for in the image of God Has God made mankind."

Yet God only exiled Cain...

 

[protectionist]

I'm against the death penalty, but I am all for life without the possibility of parole. I don't think it's appropriate to grant a murderer parole, or a child molester. If a child molester can do THAT to a child, who knows what else they would be capable of doing?

The "what else" you speak of could be done to fellow inmates in the prison. And it IS done to them, the record shows. Yes, the inmates have violated society's laws, but they are already paying their debt to society, just by being in the prison. They shouldn't be expected to endure molestation or murder also, or be subjected to it.

 

[protectionist]

True, but if someone harms a child, I would rather err on the side of caution and keep that person away from children at all costs.

But execution doesn't "err". It is 100% effective, in protecting those inside and outside the prison. Young and old.

 

[protectionist]

I think a person who would victimize a child or an old person (or disabled - people who cannot fight back for whatever reason) are pretty rotten to the core, no matter what the "reason" for the assault.

In Florida, battery on a senior citizen (65+) is a third degree felony - capable of 3 years in state prison Battery on those 64 of less, is a misdemeanor - 1 year county jail.

I think battery on children isn't even a crime all over the US. It is accepted in schools, and last I heard, really nasty in Catholic schools. Shouldn't be that way.