Are you or do you know anybody...

[Vintij]

And..... again.... There is no 'Class' in America. You might be prepared to allow your politicians to use this 'class' shit to divide you from other hard working Americans, but I am not.

No class? There are entire fields devoted to studying class. Not to mention the federal government uses cut offs (also known as classes) to determine the poverty level you ingrate. There are classes based on income, power, wealth (which is different from income) crime....etc. you can accept them or not but they exist because the government needs to calculate and keep records on who qualifies for assistance, where inequalities exist and why. Political Scientists need class information, Social Scientists need class information, Economists need class information, Anthropologists need class information......therefore class information exists because there is a use for it. You may not feel like you are in a class, but the fact that someone is using you as a statistic in order to determine the state of affairs means that class is a very important part of peoples lives, some even base their entire career on it.

 

[asterism]

You can't honestly believe that there aren't any social and cultural differences between different income strata in the United States. Do they live in the same communities? Send their kids to the same schools? Wear the same clothing? Enjoy the same entertainment? Have the same political influence? Same standard of living?

Of course not. Like any society we have social stratification and social class is a part of that.

Let's break this down bit by bit:

"You can't honestly believe that there aren't any social and cultural differences between different income strata in the United States."

Generally all have the same opportunity and generally they all like the same things. Some are able to have more of those things due to their own luck, lineage, or smart decisions. For every trust fund kid who was born on 3rd base, I can show you someone who never learned how to balance a checkbook. Then there are those who have everything and want for not, but still can't seem to have a great time with a simple home cooked meal while that is a celebrated event for those who refuse to play "keeping up with the Jones'"

"Do they live in the same communities?"

They do where I live. The range of houses within a 5 minute drive to the store I use to get my groceries goes from $20K to $10 Million. My house is worth twice as much as my friend's house across the street, but only worth a third of the house down the street (still inside the sign at the entrance) that has a tennis court. All of our kids play together. The "rich" kids like my pool better, my kids like the pool across the street better. Go figure.

"Send their kids to the same schools?"

Some yes and some no. That is one area where income has an effect. That said, I didn't spend $2500 on aftermarket rims for my car and I don't have a motorhome. The guy across the street does but he claims he "can't afford" to send his kid to private school. Further discussion shows that he doesn't think it's worth it. His money, his kid, his choice. His kid rides the bus with the kids from the millionaire progressives who play tennis in their backyard.

"Wear the same clothing?"

Yes and no. I don't pay $100 for jeans and my wife has no $300 shoes. Both above mentioned neighbors do and give me lots of (well-intentioned) shit for it. We do have nice jewelry though. Most of it is worth more than we paid for it.

"Enjoy the same entertainment?"

It's a wash. The tennis court folks bitch bitch bitch about their lives and how we're the only honest friends they have. The folks across the street have the best parties and they are all BYOB, and all guests bring food. We have a great time but we host and only ask for someone to bring food if it's a special dish that they make very well (my sister's chutney for example). Perhaps the tennis court folks enjoy better entertainment because they have a brand new $50K boat that has only been used twice in 3 years (he's selling it now and that's what his flyer says). However, I don't think he enjoys his boat.

"Have the same political influence?"

No. The tennis court folks are Eastern Orthodox. They have no influence here. They are progressives and that dog don't hunt here. The folks across the street got a county "abatement" on taxes and water bills so that their house wouldn't go into foreclosure. They go to every County Commission meeting.

"Same standard of living?"

None of us have the same standard of living. I choose to live well and always have regardless of how much money I have made. The best year of my life was the poorest year of my life.

 

[Madeline]

That was a great post, asterism. But the only place I have ever lived that resembles the one you describe is a small southern town. Up north and in big southern cities, real estate is valued on neighborhood, which drives property taxes, which controls the quality of public schools, among other services.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

I agree, government has some waste to trim. DOD, HUD, DOA, etc.

In other words, I'd eliminate programs that (unfairly IMO) benefit big business and retain the ones that benefit people.

Which ones to YOU wanna shred?

Hate to break it to you dumb fuck but Defense is a LISTED REQUIRED funding of the Federal Government. Not a single people program is though. States not the Federal Government are the power to make people programs. Or perhaps you can cite for us the section of the Constitution that gives any power to the Fed to pay for those programs?

 

[asterism]

I agree, government has some waste to trim. DOD, HUD, DOA, etc.

In other words, I'd eliminate programs that (unfairly IMO) benefit big business and retain the ones that benefit people.

Which ones to YOU wanna shred?

All of them.

Start with DOD.

 

[Madeline]

I agree, government has some waste to trim. DOD, HUD, DOA, etc.

In other words, I'd eliminate programs that (unfairly IMO) benefit big business and retain the ones that benefit people.

Which ones to YOU wanna shred?

Hate to break it to you dumb fuck but Defense is a LISTED REQUIRED funding of the Federal Government. Not a single people program is though. States not the Federal Government are the power to make people programs. Or perhaps you can cite for us the section of the Constitution that gives any power to the Fed to pay for those programs?

RetiredGySgt, I am aware the constitution mentions defense. But DOD is the poster child for government waste. Pardon me if I object to it.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

I agree, government has some waste to trim. DOD, HUD, DOA, etc.

In other words, I'd eliminate programs that (unfairly IMO) benefit big business and retain the ones that benefit people.

Which ones to YOU wanna shred?

Hate to break it to you dumb fuck but Defense is a LISTED REQUIRED funding of the Federal Government. Not a single people program is though. States not the Federal Government are the power to make people programs. Or perhaps you can cite for us the section of the Constitution that gives any power to the Fed to pay for those programs?

RetiredGySgt, I am aware the constitution mentions defense. But DOD is the poster child for government waste. Pardon me if I object to it.

Bullshit. You want the Government to fund programs that they have no business funding. Go ahead, provide me a quote from the Constitution that authorizes expenditures from the Fed on those people programs.

 

[Madeline]

I agree, government has some waste to trim. DOD, HUD, DOA, etc.

In other words, I'd eliminate programs that (unfairly IMO) benefit big business and retain the ones that benefit people.

Which ones to YOU wanna shred?

All of them.

Start with DOD.

O he he he...that could be fun.

 

[asterism]

A consumption tax is inherently superior to an income tax because........?

Consumption requires choice.

 

[asterism]

No class? There are entire fields devoted to studying class. Not to mention the federal government uses cut offs (also known as classes) to determine the poverty level you ingrate. There are classes based on income, power, wealth (which is different from income) crime....etc. you can accept them or not but they exist because the government needs to calculate and keep records on who qualifies for assistance, where inequalities exist and why. Political Scientists need class information, Social Scientists need class information, Economists need class information, Anthropologists need class information......therefore class information exists because there is a use for it. You may not feel like you are in a class, but the fact that someone is using you as a statistic in order to determine the state of affairs means that class is a very important part of peoples lives, some even base their entire career on it.

BINGO!

Class definitions exist because the government needs to justify its activities and budgets.

 

[Madeline]

Hate to break it to you dumb fuck but Defense is a LISTED REQUIRED funding of the Federal Government. Not a single people program is though. States not the Federal Government are the power to make people programs. Or perhaps you can cite for us the section of the Constitution that gives any power to the Fed to pay for those programs?

RetiredGySgt, I am aware the constitution mentions defense. But DOD is the poster child for government waste. Pardon me if I object to it.

Bullshit. You want the Government to fund programs that they have no business funding. Go ahead, provide me a quote from the Constitution that authorizes expenditures from the Fed on those people programs.

RetiredGySgt, we dun have to agree on a single expenditure to be able to agree to this: waste and fraud in government programs is a bad thing and should be prevented.

Now, having said that, I am more than happy to admit I want some services funded that are not mentioned in the constitution. And I'll admit those programs benefit people, not business. But RetiredGySgt, where in the constitution are price supports for Big Agriculture mentioned?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

A consumption tax is inherently superior to an income tax because........?

Consumption requires choice.

Consumption places the burden on the lower income people. The higher income people will make out like a dog. Unless you plan to exclude all food and drink from the tax. Essentials also would over tax the lower incomes with consumption tax. Cars and such.

A flat tax with no exemptions and a minimum level to pay is the method that is the most equal.

One does not chose to NOT eat, not drive to work, not buy cloths etc etc....

 

[RetiredGySgt]

RetiredGySgt, I am aware the constitution mentions defense. But DOD is the poster child for government waste. Pardon me if I object to it.

Bullshit. You want the Government to fund programs that they have no business funding. Go ahead, provide me a quote from the Constitution that authorizes expenditures from the Fed on those people programs.

RetiredGySgt, we dun have to agree on a single expenditure to be able to agree to this: waste and fraud in government programs is a bad thing and should be prevented.

Now, having said that, I am more than happy to admit I want some services funded that are not mentioned in the constitution. And I'll admit those programs benefit people, not business. But RetiredGySgt, where in the constitution are price supports for Big Agriculture mentioned?

That would actually fall under the Interstate Commerce clause with out a single bit of stretching.

 

[asterism]

That was a great post, asterism. But the only place I have ever lived that resembles the one you describe is a small southern town.

I didn't move back here for nothing.

Up north and in big southern cities, real estate is valued on neighborhood, which drives property taxes, which controls the quality of public schools, among other services.

Only in some areas. Big cities actually have more homogenization. Suburbs? Not so much but that was the intent.

 

[asterism]

I agree, government has some waste to trim. DOD, HUD, DOA, etc.

In other words, I'd eliminate programs that (unfairly IMO) benefit big business and retain the ones that benefit people.

Which ones to YOU wanna shred?

Hate to break it to you dumb fuck but Defense is a LISTED REQUIRED funding of the Federal Government. Not a single people program is though. States not the Federal Government are the power to make people programs. Or perhaps you can cite for us the section of the Constitution that gives any power to the Fed to pay for those programs?

But that doesn't mean it can't be streamlined and stripped of waste. And actually in my opinion, the lack of incentive to do so hampers the mission.

 

[Madeline]

A consumption tax is inherently superior to an income tax because........?

Consumption requires choice.

Okie dokie...and that is superior because? Consumption taxes tend to be regressive, the base is hard to measure and the transactions do not lend themselves to third party reporting. Not to mention, nobody in the public is familiar with them, and the apparatus of the IRS ain't set up for a consumption tax. I just don't see the big pay off.

Why not just adapt the income tax to a (modified) flat tax?

 

[asterism]

I agree, government has some waste to trim. DOD, HUD, DOA, etc.

In other words, I'd eliminate programs that (unfairly IMO) benefit big business and retain the ones that benefit people.

Which ones to YOU wanna shred?

All of them.

Start with DOD.

O he he he...that could be fun.

More like a model for future reforms. Start with the DoD and then head down from there. Let's just say that government payrolls and pensions are going to take a hit. We should pay market rates based on market factors, not government mandated rates according to skill in navigating government bureaucracy.

 

[Madeline]

Bullshit. You want the Government to fund programs that they have no business funding. Go ahead, provide me a quote from the Constitution that authorizes expenditures from the Fed on those people programs.

RetiredGySgt, we dun have to agree on a single expenditure to be able to agree to this: waste and fraud in government programs is a bad thing and should be prevented.

Now, having said that, I am more than happy to admit I want some services funded that are not mentioned in the constitution. And I'll admit those programs benefit people, not business. But RetiredGySgt, where in the constitution are price supports for Big Agriculture mentioned?

That would actually fall under the Interstate Commerce clause with out a single bit of stretching.

Fine, great, okay. So what programs that you suspect I might support do YOU think are "not mentioned"?

 

[Madeline]

All of them.

Start with DOD.

O he he he...that could be fun.

More like a model for future reforms. Start with the DoD and then head down from there. Let's just say that government payrolls and pensions are going to take a hit. We should pay market rates based on market factors, not government mandated rates according to skill in navigating government bureaucracy.

O la la! I ♥ this post!

 

[RetiredGySgt]

RetiredGySgt, we dun have to agree on a single expenditure to be able to agree to this: waste and fraud in government programs is a bad thing and should be prevented.

Now, having said that, I am more than happy to admit I want some services funded that are not mentioned in the constitution. And I'll admit those programs benefit people, not business. But RetiredGySgt, where in the constitution are price supports for Big Agriculture mentioned?

That would actually fall under the Interstate Commerce clause with out a single bit of stretching.

Fine, great, okay. So what programs that you suspect I might support do YOU think are "not mentioned"?

Social Security, Medicare, medicaid, HUD, Education,Fannie and Freddie, School Loans, Etc etc...