Are you an Untermenschen? Sure? Willing to bet your life on it?

[Ravi]

I must have missed that part. I'll read it again.

Thanks for doing the work, Di...I was just having fun with the guy. I doubt he'll ever admit that those weren't the words of the good doctor.

 

[Diuretic]

Okay, I read it again. Frank, what are your objections to the article's arguments?

 

[CrusaderFrank]

I must have missed that part. I'll read it again.

Thanks for doing the work, Di...I was just having fun with the guy. I doubt he'll ever admit that those weren't the words of the good doctor.

What's your problem?

Seriously, do you not know how to read?

The quote from Emanuel is there in the article.

Did you drop out of grade school

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Okay, I read it again. Frank, what are your objections to the article's arguments?

My objection is that Ezekiel wants to make Health Care scarce in the USA and then wants to appoint himself arbiter of who lives and dies based upon his own unique moral code.

You saw that part, right?

Here, I'll post it again for the millionth time:

"Ultimately, the complete lives system does not create 'classes of Untermenschen whose lives and well being are deemed not worth spending money on,' but rather empowers us to decide fairly whom to save when genuine scarcity makes saving everyone impossible."

 

[Diuretic]

I must have missed that part. I'll read it again.

Thanks for doing the work, Di...I was just having fun with the guy. I doubt he'll ever admit that those weren't the words of the good doctor.

No worries Ravi, actually both articles are an interesting read. For a layperson like me they are a bit of a worry, I think I've had my bliss of ignorance taken away from me, well at least a little bit (I've got plenty of ignorance left ). It's always a bit scary for non-insiders to see how insiders, especially those who are tasked with making life and death decisions, actually have to work out what's the best course of action. And here I am having read two articles about how scarce medical resources are to be distributed.

I wish I hadn't read them now

 

[Ravi]

I must have missed that part. I'll read it again.

Thanks for doing the work, Di...I was just having fun with the guy. I doubt he'll ever admit that those weren't the words of the good doctor.

No worries Ravi, actually both articles are an interesting read. For a layperson like me they are a bit of a worry, I think I've had my bliss of ignorance taken away from me, well at least a little bit (I've got plenty of ignorance left ). It's always a bit scary for non-insiders to see how insiders, especially those who are tasked with making life and death decisions, actually have to work out what's the best course of action. And here I am having read two articles about how scarce medical resources are to be distributed.

I wish I hadn't read them now

I hear you...it's a job I wouldn't want.

 

[Diuretic]

Okay, I read it again. Frank, what are your objections to the article's arguments?

My objection is that Ezekiel wants to make Health Care scarce in the USA and then wants to appoint himself arbiter of who lives and dies based upon his own unique moral code.

You saw that part, right?

Here, I'll post it again for the millionth time:

"Ultimately, the complete lives system does not create 'classes of Untermenschen whose lives and well being are deemed not worth spending money on,' but rather empowers us to decide fairly whom to save when genuine scarcity makes saving everyone impossible."

Millionth? I've told you a billion times, don't exaggerate!

Okay now where was I? Right.

No I don't think anyone is suggesting that health care should be scarce. The title sort of gives us a clue:

Principles for allocation of scarce medical interventions

So it sort of says, given that in some instances there are scarce medical interventions (eg organs available for transplant) then this is a way of deciding how those scarce medical interventions should be distributed. You know how the laws of supply and demand are intended to regulate the distribution of scarce economic resources? This is a bit like that only it's more complex.

 

[Diuretic]

Thanks for doing the work, Di...I was just having fun with the guy. I doubt he'll ever admit that those weren't the words of the good doctor.

No worries Ravi, actually both articles are an interesting read. For a layperson like me they are a bit of a worry, I think I've had my bliss of ignorance taken away from me, well at least a little bit (I've got plenty of ignorance left ). It's always a bit scary for non-insiders to see how insiders, especially those who are tasked with making life and death decisions, actually have to work out what's the best course of action. And here I am having read two articles about how scarce medical resources are to be distributed.

I wish I hadn't read them now

I hear you...it's a job I wouldn't want.

I suppose that's why these articles are published in the medical journals, the profession gets to work out a philosophical position and perhaps can inform policy makers. But it does seem a bit cold-blooded. Still, emotionalism isn't a luxury they can allow themselves I suppose.

 

[Ravi]

Okay, I read it again. Frank, what are your objections to the article's arguments?

My objection is that Ezekiel wants to make Health Care scarce in the USA and then wants to appoint himself arbiter of who lives and dies based upon his own unique moral code.

You saw that part, right?

Here, I'll post it again for the millionth time:

"Ultimately, the complete lives system does not create 'classes of Untermenschen whose lives and well being are deemed not worth spending money on,' but rather empowers us to decide fairly whom to save when genuine scarcity makes saving everyone impossible."

Again, he's quoting someone else...see the article Di posted. And he's quoting him to make the point that deciding by class or age who gets treated is unethical.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Okay, I read it again. Frank, what are your objections to the article's arguments?

My objection is that Ezekiel wants to make Health Care scarce in the USA and then wants to appoint himself arbiter of who lives and dies based upon his own unique moral code.

You saw that part, right?

Here, I'll post it again for the millionth time:

"Ultimately, the complete lives system does not create 'classes of Untermenschen whose lives and well being are deemed not worth spending money on,' but rather empowers us to decide fairly whom to save when genuine scarcity makes saving everyone impossible."

Again, he's quoting someone else...see the article Di posted. And he's quoting him to make the point that deciding by class or age who gets treated is unethical.

The article Di posted? You didn't write that did you?

I Posted the key quote in the OP and posted a link to the entire article on post 18!

You won't even go to a link unless its posted by a fellow KoolAid Snorter?

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Okay, I read it again. Frank, what are your objections to the article's arguments?

My objection is that Ezekiel wants to make Health Care scarce in the USA and then wants to appoint himself arbiter of who lives and dies based upon his own unique moral code.

You saw that part, right?

Here, I'll post it again for the millionth time:

"Ultimately, the complete lives system does not create 'classes of Untermenschen whose lives and well being are deemed not worth spending money on,' but rather empowers us to decide fairly whom to save when genuine scarcity makes saving everyone impossible."

Again, he's quoting someone else...see the article Di posted. And he's quoting him to make the point that deciding by class or age who gets treated is unethical.

And the Obama care regulators will decide what is ethical based on what ever calculus they find fair, which could be anything including political affiliation , campaign contribution, race, what could possibly go wrong?

 

[Ravi]

My objection is that Ezekiel wants to make Health Care scarce in the USA and then wants to appoint himself arbiter of who lives and dies based upon his own unique moral code.

You saw that part, right?

Here, I'll post it again for the millionth time:

"Ultimately, the complete lives system does not create 'classes of Untermenschen whose lives and well being are deemed not worth spending money on,' but rather empowers us to decide fairly whom to save when genuine scarcity makes saving everyone impossible."

Again, he's quoting someone else...see the article Di posted. And he's quoting him to make the point that deciding by class or age who gets treated is unethical.

The article Di posted? You didn't write that did you?

I Posted the key quote in the OP and posted a link to the entire article on post 18!

You won't even go to a link unless its posted by a fellow KoolAid Snorter?

You're so stupid it's almost breathtaking. The guy was quoting an article authored by J Grimley Evans...you'd better go get your death counseling because I think your stupidity is about to kill you...your brain must be swelling trying to post a valid point and it's about to explode.

 

[Zoom-boing]

"Ultimately, the complete lives system does not create 'classes of Untermenschen whose lives and well being are deemed not worth spending money on,' but rather empowers us to decide fairly whom to save when genuine scarcity makes saving everyone impossible."

From my understanding Emanuel is saying that the Complete Lives System does not create 'untermenschen' but the Complete Lives System will 'empower us to decide fairly whom to save'. Who is the 'us' that will be empowered with this decision? Is he referring to doctors? Is he referring to government? Both?

We have to take Dr. Emanuel’s ideas in the context in which they were set, which makes them somewhat less monstrous and horrific than some of the commentary on the subject would have you believe.

Ok. But when government is controlling the purse strings . . . . what could happen?

That being said, one of the oft-stated goals of President Obama’s healthcare “reform” was to reduce costs and the amount of America’s GDP being spent on healthcare. That certainly implies that money – tax dollars or deficit dollars – will essentially be a medical resource. This could very easily create the sort scarcity that would call Dr. Emanuel’s bio-ethical philosophies into play. Dr Emanuel is, after all, a special advisor to the Director of the White House Office of Management and Budget for health policy. He would definitely be consulted on streamlining expenditures. Will the complete lives system become the basis and the model for other medical decisions?

Complete Lives System | Reflections From a Murky Pond

 

[Diuretic]

My objection is that Ezekiel wants to make Health Care scarce in the USA and then wants to appoint himself arbiter of who lives and dies based upon his own unique moral code.

You saw that part, right?

Here, I'll post it again for the millionth time:

"Ultimately, the complete lives system does not create 'classes of Untermenschen whose lives and well being are deemed not worth spending money on,' but rather empowers us to decide fairly whom to save when genuine scarcity makes saving everyone impossible."

Again, he's quoting someone else...see the article Di posted. And he's quoting him to make the point that deciding by class or age who gets treated is unethical.

And the Obama care regulators will decide what is ethical based on what ever calculus they find fair, which could be anything including political affiliation , campaign contribution, race, what could possibly go wrong?

Well not in that article anyway.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Again, he's quoting someone else...see the article Di posted. And he's quoting him to make the point that deciding by class or age who gets treated is unethical.

The article Di posted? You didn't write that did you?

I Posted the key quote in the OP and posted a link to the entire article on post 18!

You won't even go to a link unless its posted by a fellow KoolAid Snorter?

You're so stupid it's almost breathtaking. The guy was quoting an article authored by J Grimley Evans...you'd better go get your death counseling because I think your stupidity is about to kill you...your brain must be swelling trying to post a valid point and it's about to explode.

A differance with out a distinction .
all the contributers are of the same mind.

The complete lives system is insensitive to international differences in typical lifespan. Although broad consensus favours adolescents over very young infants, and young adults over the very elderly people, implementation can reasonably differ between, even within, nation-states.87, 88 Some people believe that a complete life is a universal limit founded in natural human capacities, which everyone should accept even without scarcity.37 By contrast, the complete lives system requires only that citizens see a complete life, however defined, as an important good, and accept that fairness gives those short of a complete life stronger claims to scarce life-saving resources.

87 Emanuel EJ. Finding new ethical conceptions through practical ethics: global justice and the “standard of care” debates. Paper presented at: University of Toronto Center for Ethics, Inaugural Conference: Is there progress in ethics?

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Again, he's quoting someone else...see the article Di posted. And he's quoting him to make the point that deciding by class or age who gets treated is unethical.

And the Obama care regulators will decide what is ethical based on what ever calculus they find fair, which could be anything including political affiliation , campaign contribution, race, what could possibly go wrong?

Well not in that article anyway.

Obama's Regulatory Czar Cass Sunstein will decide he is an acolyte of Peter singer.
A kook of the first order.

 

[editec]

Frank's a disinformation tool.

Surely that's obvious.

 

[Diuretic]

"Ultimately, the complete lives system does not create 'classes of Untermenschen whose lives and well being are deemed not worth spending money on,' but rather empowers us to decide fairly whom to save when genuine scarcity makes saving everyone impossible."

From my understanding Emanuel is saying that the Complete Lives System does not create 'untermenschen' but the Complete Lives System will 'empower us to decide fairly whom to save'. Who is the 'us' that will be empowered with this decision? Is he referring to doctors? Is he referring to government? Both?

We have to take Dr. Emanuel’s ideas in the context in which they were set, which makes them somewhat less monstrous and horrific than some of the commentary on the subject would have you believe.

Ok. But when government is controlling the purse strings . . . . what could happen?

That being said, one of the oft-stated goals of President Obama’s healthcare “reform” was to reduce costs and the amount of America’s GDP being spent on healthcare. That certainly implies that money – tax dollars or deficit dollars – will essentially be a medical resource. This could very easily create the sort scarcity that would call Dr. Emanuel’s bio-ethical philosophies into play. Dr Emanuel is, after all, a special advisor to the Director of the White House Office of Management and Budget for health policy. He would definitely be consulted on streamlining expenditures. Will the complete lives system become the basis and the model for other medical decisions?

Complete Lives System | Reflections From a Murky Pond

From my understanding Emanuel is saying that the Complete Lives System does not create 'untermenschen' but the Complete Lives System will 'empower us to decide fairly whom to save'. Who is the 'us' that will be empowered with this decision? Is he referring to doctors? Is he referring to government? Both?

From what I read there's no reference to the decider(s). Since it looks like it's written to address universal issues I don't think it's supposed to be located in any particular place. So, I suppose it assumes that whoever is responsible for making decisions on allocation of scarce medical resources should be guided by the principles espoused in the article.

Ok. But when government is controlling the purse strings . . . . what could happen?

Same as if corporations were controlling the purse strings. Again, the article doesn't define who or what is or should be making the decisions, just how they should be made.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

just how they should be made.

And how is that?

 

[Diuretic]

just how they should be made.

And how is that?

From what I understand after reading the article, the so-called complete lives system.