Are you a hypocrit when.....

[Lonestar_logic]

Sure, right in this thread Obama was already blasted for "apology tour," while simultaneously ignoring how he unequivocally, on the same tour in the same speeches, went on about how great America is. If you don't find that to be unfair/disengenuous/whatever, hey, that's you.

Also, how the Imam is somehow horrible for implying that in the broader context of factors, for terrorist attacks, our presence in the middle east is ONE of the many factors. And, he never said we're WRONG for our presence, either, just that it's a factor in the entire picture.......................and then emotionalists take that and run with the sound bite and say he hates America and whatever and hold having a rational discussion against him as a person. It's disturbing.

What you're (not you personally) doing by doing these things is supressing different points of view by labelling them "whining," or "hating America," etc., when they are indeed simple factors inside of said discussions. It's wrong to do, and I'd hope as a man's man you'd say so.

Yes he was blasted for his "apology tour" and rightly so, America shouldn't have to apologize for anything and he should tout how great our country is. His job is protect this country and promote our values, not apolgize for doing so.

How is having a difference of opinion with the Imam hypocritical? He may not hate America but he damn sure don't like us very much. He said we killed half a million babies in Iraq, that's a lie. He justifies terrorism and uses "truther" propoganda to do so.

And disagreeing with this idiot is not supressing his POV, he's entitled to his opinion and I'm entitled to question it and even argue against it if I believe his opinion to be wrong.

It's not his lie, it's the UN's. He also didn't justify terrorism and it takes understanding sentences like "Yes, it is true that it does not justify the acts of bombing innocent civilians." - mixed with some even-handed honesty, to "Get that," I guess.

See what I mean, he wants to tackle a disturbing subject and you have people saying that he said things that he DIDN'T, LIKE YOU JUST DID, YOU SAID HE'S "JUSTIFYING IT<" when he clearly pointed out he's NOT, and just that it's HARD to tell the Terrorists, who have lost children, that their acts are WRONG, which he is clearly advocating that they ARE wrong.

Howe can people discuss these things when you have people perverting the discussion like this? It's pretty fuckin shameful, if you ask me.

Rauf stated and I quote, "We tend to forget, in the West, that the United States has more Muslim blood on its hands than al Qaida has on its hands of innocent non Muslims. You may remember that the US-led sanctions against Iraq led to the death of over half a million Iraqi children. This has been documented by the United Nations. And when Madeleine Albright, who has become a friend of mine over the last couple of years, when she was Secretary of State and was asked whether this was worth it, said it was worth it."

That is not the UN speaking!

Fact check: A report by the British government said at most only 50,000 deaths could be attributed to the sanctions, which were brought on by the actions by former Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein.

I trust the British in this regard more than I would the UN.

Asked why Muslims commit suicide bombings, Rauf belittled the fanatical religious motivation of such attacks and said: "But what makes people, in my opinion, commit suicide for political reasons have their origins in politics and political objectives and worldly objectives rather than other worldly objectives. But the psychology of human beings and the brittleness of the human condition and how many of us have thought about taking our own lives, we may be jilted, had a bad relationship, you know, didn't get tenure at the university, failed an important course, there's a host of reason why people feel so depressed with themselves that they are willing to contemplate ending their own lives. And if you can access those individuals and deploy them for your own worldly objectives, this is exactly what has happened in much of the Muslim world. "

Fact check: Here Rauf tries to negate that suicide bombings are driven by Islamic religious beliefs and trying to equate terrorist activity to someone who doesn't get tenure.)

The United States has supported authoritarian regimes, Rauf said, and it's understandable that people in those nations would take action into their own hands. "Collateral damage is a nice thing to put on a paper but when the collateral damage is your own uncle or cousin, what passions do these arouse? How do you negotiate? How do you tell people whose homes have been destroyed, whose lives have been destroyed, that this does not justify your actions of terrorism. It's hard. Yes, it is true that it does not justify the acts of bombing innocent civilians, that does not solve the problem, but after 50 years of, in many cases, oppression, of US support of authoritarian regimes that have violated human rights in the most heinous of ways, how else do people get attention?"

Fact check: This is justifying acts of terrorism by blaming the United States for the oppression of Islamic regimes of their own citizens. This also ignores U.S. aid of Muslim citizens in nations such as Kosovo and Kuwait.

Read more at: Rauf Lecture Reveals Radicalism :: The Investigative Project on Terrorism

These are HIS words, now let's see you spin it.

 

[teapartysamurai]

I have zero problem with what the guy said. He's right.

*spittle and sputter removed*

Yes, that's what I said. I have zero problem with what the guy said. Should I repeat it again?

You see, that's the problem with people like you and having a grown rational discussions. You are incapable of it. Your rush to attack without understanding and inability to admit fault or show any kind of weakness marks you for the child you are. You can't have a legit conversation on the topic without acknowledging the negatives of United States' foreign policy and how it has shaped the Middle East and it's natives view of our country/government. But you aren't interested in that. You are a propagandist.

Oh my gosh!

He says this:

We tend to forget, in the West that the United States has more muslim blood on it's hands than Al Qaeda has on its hands of innocent non-muslims. You may remember that the US-led saction against Iraq led to the death of over half a million children Iraqi children. This has been documented by the United Nations.

How do you tell people whose homes have been destroyed, whose lives have been destroyed, that this does not justify your actions of terrorism? It's hard. Yes, it is true that it does not justify the acts of bombing innocent civilians. That does not solve the problem. But after 50 years of, in many cases, oppression, of U.S. support of authoritarian regimes that have violated human rights in the most heinous of ways how else do people get attention? So, I'm not - I'm just providing you with the arguments that are happening intra-Islamically by those who feel the emotion of pain.
New Imam Audio: Latest on Ground Zero Mosque | The FOX Nation

Video at same link!

LATER IN THE SAME VIDEO HE CALLS THE US AN "ACCESSORY" TO 9/11!

And I'M THE PROPAGANDIST????????

It's soooooooooo rational to believe a complete lie that the US starved Iraqi children, or is an accessory to 9/11!

I think we see who is rational, when I attack this laughable premise and all you liberals can do is make personal attacks on me.

All you are doing is confirming the obvious that liberals HATE America, blame America first, and that is why they are so for this ground zero mosque.

 

[johnrocks]

I think we see who's lame!!!!!

You see no difference between being AGAINST a foriegn policy and JUSTIFYING TERRORISM IN WHICH 3,000 INNOCENT AMERICANS WERE KILLED?????????

That is your stand?????

You see NO DIFFERENCE between criticizing foriegn policy AND SPREADING THE LIE that the sanctions against Iraq killed half a million babies?

You see no difference between criticizing foreign policy and JUSTIFYING TERRORISM????????

And YOU are the one that wants to claim you want a "serious" discussion about this.

You want us to ACCEPT THIS RIDICULOUS PREMISE. Intelligent discussion my ass! There is nothing intelligent about it. It's a laughble moral relativist position, and there is nothing "intelligent" about such a premise.

Excuse me if I won't pet your ego by pretending there is intelligence rather than laughable spin in your premise.

Who is justifying the killing? See, that is what I was talking about; emotion controlling the tempo of the conversation. Al Queda killed 3000 innocent people; not the entire Nation of Islam and I think it is logical to discuss how foreign policy can cause unintended consequences the same as domestic intervention can cause unintended consequences.

Tell that to the ground zero Imam who says the US is just as compliant in 9/11.

We tend to forget, in the West that the United States has more muslim blood on it's hands than Al Qaeda has on its hands of innocent non-muslims. You may remember that the US-led saction against Iraq led to the death of over half a million children Iraqi children. This has been documented by the United Nations.

How do you tell people whose homes have been destroyed, whose lives have been destroyed, that this does not justify your actions of terrorism? It's hard. Yes, it is true that it does not justify the acts of bombing innocent civilians. That does not solve the problem. But after 50 years of, in many cases, oppression, of U.S. support of authoritarian regimes that have violated human rights in the most heinous of ways how else do people get attention? So, I'm not - I'm just providing you with the arguments that are happening intra-Islamically by those who feel the emotion of pain.
New Imam Audio: Latest on Ground Zero Mosque | The FOX Nation

Video at same link!

LATER IN THE SAME VIDEO HE CALLS THE US AN "ACCESSORY" TO 9/11!


This guy thinks the US has blood on it's hands, AND GT thinks this is no different than anyone who criticizes foreign policy?

Who's putting the emotion in the debate????????

Go hear his entire conversation instead of the one that is out of context, he's talking about how US Foreign Policy can cause unintended consequences, not that America is to blame and he has a point;imho.

 

[teapartysamurai]

What do you think are the ill effects of Obama's foreign policy? What is the Imam saying the ill effects of our foreign policy can be, and btw, he's saying it's NOT justifiable?

answer two questions, straight up. don't do the three d's of dodgeball. answer them both.

No sorry. That is still demanding I accept your laughable premise of them being the same.

The idea that I cannot question foreign policy (in a country that has free speech) OR it's akin to saying the US has blood on it's hands is a LAUGHABLE PREMISE.

No sorry, the premise here is YOU AGREE with the comments of the Imam and you are trying to spin, that they are no different than disagreeing with foreign policy.

But the idea that disagreeing with foreign policy IS THE SAME AS JUSTIFYING TERRORISM, is not an intelligent position. It's just smarmy spin because an intelligent examination would reveal the gaping hold in logic.

What, in your opinion, are the ill effects of Carter's/Obama's foreign policy? You're incapable of answering, yes? you don't have to accept any premise, these are two very straight forward questions that you should have no problem fielding since YOU have AN OPINION, APPARENTLY.

I did not start this thread. I AM NOT ON TRIAL!

I DID NOT COME UP WITH THE LAUGHABLE PREMISE that criticizing foreign policy is the same as the ground zero imam's comments.

I DO NOT HAVE TO JUSTIFY MYSELF.

YOU are the one that needs to justify how you think criticizing foreign policy is the same as this:

We tend to forget, in the West that the United States has more muslim blood on it's hands than Al Qaeda has on its hands of innocent non-muslims. You may remember that the US-led saction against Iraq led to the death of over half a million children Iraqi children. This has been documented by the United Nations.

How do you tell people whose homes have been destroyed, whose lives have been destroyed, that this does not justify your actions of terrorism? It's hard. Yes, it is true that it does not justify the acts of bombing innocent civilians. That does not solve the problem. But after 50 years of, in many cases, oppression, of U.S. support of authoritarian regimes that have violated human rights in the most heinous of ways how else do people get attention? So, I'm not - I'm just providing you with the arguments that are happening intra-Islamically by those who feel the emotion of pain.
New Imam Audio: Latest on Ground Zero Mosque | The FOX Nation

Video at same link!

LATER IN THE SAME VIDEO HE CALLS THE US AN "ACCESSORY" TO 9/11!

The fact that you keep trying to make the debate about ME and NOT defending your own position betrays the weakness of your premise.

You know on rational examination it's not defensible, and is nothing more than weak relativism.

 

[G.T.]

Who is justifying the killing? See, that is what I was talking about; emotion controlling the tempo of the conversation. Al Queda killed 3000 innocent people; not the entire Nation of Islam and I think it is logical to discuss how foreign policy can cause unintended consequences the same as domestic intervention can cause unintended consequences.

Tell that to the ground zero Imam who says the US is just as compliant in 9/11.

We tend to forget, in the West that the United States has more muslim blood on it's hands than Al Qaeda has on its hands of innocent non-muslims. You may remember that the US-led saction against Iraq led to the death of over half a million children Iraqi children. This has been documented by the United Nations.

How do you tell people whose homes have been destroyed, whose lives have been destroyed, that this does not justify your actions of terrorism? It's hard. Yes, it is true that it does not justify the acts of bombing innocent civilians. That does not solve the problem. But after 50 years of, in many cases, oppression, of U.S. support of authoritarian regimes that have violated human rights in the most heinous of ways how else do people get attention? So, I'm not - I'm just providing you with the arguments that are happening intra-Islamically by those who feel the emotion of pain.
New Imam Audio: Latest on Ground Zero Mosque | The FOX Nation

Video at same link!

LATER IN THE SAME VIDEO HE CALLS THE US AN "ACCESSORY" TO 9/11!


This guy thinks the US has blood on it's hands, AND GT thinks this is no different than anyone who criticizes foreign policy?

Who's putting the emotion in the debate????????

Go hear his entire conversation instead of the one that is out of context, he's talking about how US Foreign Policy can cause unintended consequences, not that America is to blame and he has a point;imho.

You too, Lonestar. All you're doing is taking, now, someone ELSE's spin of what he's saying and saying "let's see you spin this."

This sin't third grade. He very clearly stated that it's not justified.

 

[teapartysamurai]

Yes he was blasted for his "apology tour" and rightly so, America shouldn't have to apologize for anything and he should tout how great our country is. His job is protect this country and promote our values, not apolgize for doing so.

How is having a difference of opinion with the Imam hypocritical? He may not hate America but he damn sure don't like us very much. He said we killed half a million babies in Iraq, that's a lie. He justifies terrorism and uses "truther" propoganda to do so.

And disagreeing with this idiot is not supressing his POV, he's entitled to his opinion and I'm entitled to question it and even argue against it if I believe his opinion to be wrong.

It's not his lie, it's the UN's. He also didn't justify terrorism and it takes understanding sentences like "Yes, it is true that it does not justify the acts of bombing innocent civilians." - mixed with some even-handed honesty, to "Get that," I guess.

See what I mean, he wants to tackle a disturbing subject and you have people saying that he said things that he DIDN'T, LIKE YOU JUST DID, YOU SAID HE'S "JUSTIFYING IT<" when he clearly pointed out he's NOT, and just that it's HARD to tell the Terrorists, who have lost children, that their acts are WRONG, which he is clearly advocating that they ARE wrong.

Howe can people discuss these things when you have people perverting the discussion like this? It's pretty fuckin shameful, if you ask me.

Rauf stated and I quote, "We tend to forget, in the West, that the United States has more Muslim blood on its hands than al Qaida has on its hands of innocent non Muslims. You may remember that the US-led sanctions against Iraq led to the death of over half a million Iraqi children. This has been documented by the United Nations. And when Madeleine Albright, who has become a friend of mine over the last couple of years, when she was Secretary of State and was asked whether this was worth it, said it was worth it."

That is not the UN speaking!

Fact check: A report by the British government said at most only 50,000 deaths could be attributed to the sanctions, which were brought on by the actions by former Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein.

I trust the British in this regard more than I would the UN.

Asked why Muslims commit suicide bombings, Rauf belittled the fanatical religious motivation of such attacks and said: "But what makes people, in my opinion, commit suicide for political reasons have their origins in politics and political objectives and worldly objectives rather than other worldly objectives. But the psychology of human beings and the brittleness of the human condition and how many of us have thought about taking our own lives, we may be jilted, had a bad relationship, you know, didn't get tenure at the university, failed an important course, there's a host of reason why people feel so depressed with themselves that they are willing to contemplate ending their own lives. And if you can access those individuals and deploy them for your own worldly objectives, this is exactly what has happened in much of the Muslim world. "

Fact check: Here Rauf tries to negate that suicide bombings are driven by Islamic religious beliefs and trying to equate terrorist activity to someone who doesn't get tenure.)

The United States has supported authoritarian regimes, Rauf said, and it's understandable that people in those nations would take action into their own hands. "Collateral damage is a nice thing to put on a paper but when the collateral damage is your own uncle or cousin, what passions do these arouse? How do you negotiate? How do you tell people whose homes have been destroyed, whose lives have been destroyed, that this does not justify your actions of terrorism. It's hard. Yes, it is true that it does not justify the acts of bombing innocent civilians, that does not solve the problem, but after 50 years of, in many cases, oppression, of US support of authoritarian regimes that have violated human rights in the most heinous of ways, how else do people get attention?"

Fact check: This is justifying acts of terrorism by blaming the United States for the oppression of Islamic regimes of their own citizens. This also ignores U.S. aid of Muslim citizens in nations such as Kosovo and Kuwait.

Read more at: Rauf Lecture Reveals Radicalism :: The Investigative Project on Terrorism

These are HIS words, now let's see you spin it.

You are asking GT to deal with facts and not his obvious laughable spin.

That's asking too much.

 

[G.T.]

No sorry. That is still demanding I accept your laughable premise of them being the same.

The idea that I cannot question foreign policy (in a country that has free speech) OR it's akin to saying the US has blood on it's hands is a LAUGHABLE PREMISE.

No sorry, the premise here is YOU AGREE with the comments of the Imam and you are trying to spin, that they are no different than disagreeing with foreign policy.

But the idea that disagreeing with foreign policy IS THE SAME AS JUSTIFYING TERRORISM, is not an intelligent position. It's just smarmy spin because an intelligent examination would reveal the gaping hold in logic.

What, in your opinion, are the ill effects of Carter's/Obama's foreign policy? You're incapable of answering, yes? you don't have to accept any premise, these are two very straight forward questions that you should have no problem fielding since YOU have AN OPINION, APPARENTLY.

I did not start this thread. I AM NOT ON TRIAL!

I DID NOT COME UP WITH THE LAUGHABLE PREMISE that criticizing foreign policy is the same as the ground zero imam's comments.

I DO NOT HAVE TO JUSTIFY MYSELF.

YOU are the one that needs to justify how you think criticizing foreign policy is the same as this:

We tend to forget, in the West that the United States has more muslim blood on it's hands than Al Qaeda has on its hands of innocent non-muslims. You may remember that the US-led saction against Iraq led to the death of over half a million children Iraqi children. This has been documented by the United Nations.

How do you tell people whose homes have been destroyed, whose lives have been destroyed, that this does not justify your actions of terrorism? It's hard. Yes, it is true that it does not justify the acts of bombing innocent civilians. That does not solve the problem. But after 50 years of, in many cases, oppression, of U.S. support of authoritarian regimes that have violated human rights in the most heinous of ways how else do people get attention? So, I'm not - I'm just providing you with the arguments that are happening intra-Islamically by those who feel the emotion of pain.
New Imam Audio: Latest on Ground Zero Mosque | The FOX Nation

Video at same link!

LATER IN THE SAME VIDEO HE CALLS THE US AN "ACCESSORY" TO 9/11!

The fact that you keep trying to make the debate about ME and NOT defending your own position betrays the weakness of your premise.

You know on rational examination it's not defensible, and is nothing more than weak relativism.

My question is in regard to defending my position you bumbling idiot.

Because if you say that Obama/Carter's policies would cost innocent lives, then that's the same as Imam saying Obama's/Carter's/Reagan's/Nixon's/Clinton's/Bush's, etc. policies are costing innocent lives. IT ISN'T ANY DIFFERENT.

 

[teapartysamurai]

Who is justifying the killing? See, that is what I was talking about; emotion controlling the tempo of the conversation. Al Queda killed 3000 innocent people; not the entire Nation of Islam and I think it is logical to discuss how foreign policy can cause unintended consequences the same as domestic intervention can cause unintended consequences.

Tell that to the ground zero Imam who says the US is just as compliant in 9/11.

We tend to forget, in the West that the United States has more muslim blood on it's hands than Al Qaeda has on its hands of innocent non-muslims. You may remember that the US-led saction against Iraq led to the death of over half a million children Iraqi children. This has been documented by the United Nations.

How do you tell people whose homes have been destroyed, whose lives have been destroyed, that this does not justify your actions of terrorism? It's hard. Yes, it is true that it does not justify the acts of bombing innocent civilians. That does not solve the problem. But after 50 years of, in many cases, oppression, of U.S. support of authoritarian regimes that have violated human rights in the most heinous of ways how else do people get attention? So, I'm not - I'm just providing you with the arguments that are happening intra-Islamically by those who feel the emotion of pain.
New Imam Audio: Latest on Ground Zero Mosque | The FOX Nation

Video at same link!

LATER IN THE SAME VIDEO HE CALLS THE US AN "ACCESSORY" TO 9/11!


This guy thinks the US has blood on it's hands, AND GT thinks this is no different than anyone who criticizes foreign policy?

Who's putting the emotion in the debate????????

Go hear his entire conversation instead of the one that is out of context, he's talking about how US Foreign Policy can cause unintended consequences, not that America is to blame and he has a point;imho.

So, you think he is right too.

Nice!

He has a point!

 

[teapartysamurai]

Tell that to the ground zero Imam who says the US is just as compliant in 9/11.

We tend to forget, in the West that the United States has more muslim blood on it's hands than Al Qaeda has on its hands of innocent non-muslims. You may remember that the US-led saction against Iraq led to the death of over half a million children Iraqi children. This has been documented by the United Nations.

How do you tell people whose homes have been destroyed, whose lives have been destroyed, that this does not justify your actions of terrorism? It's hard. Yes, it is true that it does not justify the acts of bombing innocent civilians. That does not solve the problem. But after 50 years of, in many cases, oppression, of U.S. support of authoritarian regimes that have violated human rights in the most heinous of ways how else do people get attention? So, I'm not - I'm just providing you with the arguments that are happening intra-Islamically by those who feel the emotion of pain.
New Imam Audio: Latest on Ground Zero Mosque | The FOX Nation

Video at same link!

LATER IN THE SAME VIDEO HE CALLS THE US AN "ACCESSORY" TO 9/11!


This guy thinks the US has blood on it's hands, AND GT thinks this is no different than anyone who criticizes foreign policy?

Who's putting the emotion in the debate????????

Go hear his entire conversation instead of the one that is out of context, he's talking about how US Foreign Policy can cause unintended consequences, not that America is to blame and he has a point;imho.

You too, Lonestar. All you're doing is taking, now, someone ELSE's spin of what he's saying and saying "let's see you spin this."

This sin't third grade. He very clearly stated that it's not justified.

Oh please! Have you never read 1984 or ever heard of doublespeak?

He "clearly" states he's against terrorism, and in the next breathe GOES RIGHT ON JUSTIFYING TERRORISM.

It would be no different than me saying "What Tim McVeigh did was wrong, but I can understand his anger and the blood America has on it's hands, blah blah blah" thus JUSTIFYING McVeigh's actions.

It's typical CYA doublespeak and the only people it would fool are those who agree with terrorism anyway.

We tend to forget, in the West that the United States has more muslim blood on it's hands than Al Qaeda has on its hands of innocent non-muslims. You may remember that the US-led saction against Iraq led to the death of over half a million children Iraqi children. This has been documented by the United Nations.

How do you tell people whose homes have been destroyed, whose lives have been destroyed, that this does not justify your actions of terrorism? It's hard. Yes, it is true that it does not justify the acts of bombing innocent civilians. That does not solve the problem. But after 50 years of, in many cases, oppression, of U.S. support of authoritarian regimes that have violated human rights in the most heinous of ways how else do people get attention? So, I'm not - I'm just providing you with the arguments that are happening intra-Islamically by those who feel the emotion of pain.
New Imam Audio: Latest on Ground Zero Mosque | The FOX Nation

Video at same link!

LATER IN THE SAME VIDEO HE CALLS THE US AN "ACCESSORY" TO 9/11!

 

[G.T.]

you're just too dumb for words, to be honest.

there's a few adults in here willing to have a discussion

and a few that are spinning someone's words out of context and out of control, despite his own words debunking what you're saying they're saying.

it's like talking with little kids, seriously. just leave, for fuck's sake, if you don't want to discuss it.

 

[G.T.]

Go hear his entire conversation instead of the one that is out of context, he's talking about how US Foreign Policy can cause unintended consequences, not that America is to blame and he has a point;imho.

You too, Lonestar. All you're doing is taking, now, someone ELSE's spin of what he's saying and saying "let's see you spin this."

This sin't third grade. He very clearly stated that it's not justified.

Oh please! Have you never read 1984 or ever heard of doublespeak?

He "clearly" states he's against terrorism, and in the next breathe GOES RIGHT ON JUSTIFYING TERRORISM.

It would be no different than me saying "What Tim McVeigh did was wrong, but I can understand his anger and the blood America has on it's hands, blah blah blah" thus JUSTIFYING McVeigh's actions.

It's typical CYA doublespeak and the only people it would fool are those who agree with terrorism anyway.

We tend to forget, in the West that the United States has more muslim blood on it's hands than Al Qaeda has on its hands of innocent non-muslims. You may remember that the US-led saction against Iraq led to the death of over half a million children Iraqi children. This has been documented by the United Nations.

How do you tell people whose homes have been destroyed, whose lives have been destroyed, that this does not justify your actions of terrorism? It's hard. Yes, it is true that it does not justify the acts of bombing innocent civilians. That does not solve the problem. But after 50 years of, in many cases, oppression, of U.S. support of authoritarian regimes that have violated human rights in the most heinous of ways how else do people get attention? So, I'm not - I'm just providing you with the arguments that are happening intra-Islamically by those who feel the emotion of pain.
New Imam Audio: Latest on Ground Zero Mosque | The FOX Nation

Video at same link!

LATER IN THE SAME VIDEO HE CALLS THE US AN "ACCESSORY" TO 9/11!

no, wrong. saying that you can understand someone's ill-founded perception is not the same as JUSTIFYING their perception. do you know how logic even works, or no?

 

[teapartysamurai]

What, in your opinion, are the ill effects of Carter's/Obama's foreign policy? You're incapable of answering, yes? you don't have to accept any premise, these are two very straight forward questions that you should have no problem fielding since YOU have AN OPINION, APPARENTLY.

I did not start this thread. I AM NOT ON TRIAL!

I DID NOT COME UP WITH THE LAUGHABLE PREMISE that criticizing foreign policy is the same as the ground zero imam's comments.

I DO NOT HAVE TO JUSTIFY MYSELF.

YOU are the one that needs to justify how you think criticizing foreign policy is the same as this:

We tend to forget, in the West that the United States has more muslim blood on it's hands than Al Qaeda has on its hands of innocent non-muslims. You may remember that the US-led saction against Iraq led to the death of over half a million children Iraqi children. This has been documented by the United Nations.

How do you tell people whose homes have been destroyed, whose lives have been destroyed, that this does not justify your actions of terrorism? It's hard. Yes, it is true that it does not justify the acts of bombing innocent civilians. That does not solve the problem. But after 50 years of, in many cases, oppression, of U.S. support of authoritarian regimes that have violated human rights in the most heinous of ways how else do people get attention? So, I'm not - I'm just providing you with the arguments that are happening intra-Islamically by those who feel the emotion of pain.
New Imam Audio: Latest on Ground Zero Mosque | The FOX Nation

Video at same link!

LATER IN THE SAME VIDEO HE CALLS THE US AN "ACCESSORY" TO 9/11!

The fact that you keep trying to make the debate about ME and NOT defending your own position betrays the weakness of your premise.

You know on rational examination it's not defensible, and is nothing more than weak relativism.

My question is in regard to defending my position you bumbling idiot.

Because if you say that Obama/Carter's policies would cost innocent lives, then that's the same as Imam saying Obama's/Carter's/Reagan's/Nixon's/Clinton's/Bush's, etc. policies are costing innocent lives. IT ISN'T ANY DIFFERENT.

Wait a minute. I HAVE TO DEFEND YOUR POSITION, BUT I'M THE BUMBLING IDIOT???????

Have you EVER taken any courses in logic or debate. I am NOT required to defend YOUR POSITION!!!!!!!!!!!

I am NOT required to accept YOUR PREMISE!!!!!!

I'm the bumbling idiot!

It is YOU that has to explain how criticism of Obama's foreign policy is the same as the ground zero imam JUSTIFYING TERRORISM!

We tend to forget, in the West that the United States has more muslim blood on it's hands than Al Qaeda has on its hands of innocent non-muslims. You may remember that the US-led saction against Iraq led to the death of over half a million children Iraqi children. This has been documented by the United Nations.

How do you tell people whose homes have been destroyed, whose lives have been destroyed, that this does not justify your actions of terrorism? It's hard. Yes, it is true that it does not justify the acts of bombing innocent civilians. That does not solve the problem. But after 50 years of, in many cases, oppression, of U.S. support of authoritarian regimes that have violated human rights in the most heinous of ways how else do people get attention? So, I'm not - I'm just providing you with the arguments that are happening intra-Islamically by those who feel the emotion of pain.
New Imam Audio: Latest on Ground Zero Mosque | The FOX Nation

Video at same link!

LATER IN THE SAME VIDEO HE CALLS THE US AN "ACCESSORY" TO 9/11!

I am still waiting for your answer.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

What do you think are the ill effects of Obama's foreign policy? What is the Imam saying the ill effects of our foreign policy can be, and btw, he's saying it's NOT justifiable?

answer two questions, straight up. don't do the three d's of dodgeball. answer them both.

No sorry. That is still demanding I accept your laughable premise of them being the same.

The idea that I cannot question foreign policy (in a country that has free speech) OR it's akin to saying the US has blood on it's hands is a LAUGHABLE PREMISE.

No sorry, the premise here is YOU AGREE with the comments of the Imam and you are trying to spin, that they are no different than disagreeing with foreign policy.

But the idea that disagreeing with foreign policy IS THE SAME AS JUSTIFYING TERRORISM, is not an intelligent position. It's just smarmy spin because an intelligent examination would reveal the gaping hold in logic.

What, in your opinion, are the ill effects of Carter's/Obama's foreign policy? You're incapable of answering, yes? you don't have to accept any premise, these are two very straight forward questions that you should have no problem fielding since YOU have AN OPINION, APPARENTLY.

You keep bringing up Carter's foreign policy and trying somehow to connect them to Obama. I'm not sure why, But the fact is Obama's foreign policy is basically Bush's foreign policy, not much has changed in that regard. And as for Carter, the only criticism I had was his naivette when it came to the Soviet Union. Carter actually did some good things with his foreign policy, the return of the Panama Canal, he normalized relations with the People's Republic of China, he establishmed lasting peace between Egypt and Israel with the Camp David Accords. Now he made mistakes, as most humans do, but his or anyone else's mistakes do not justify the taking of almost 3000 innocent lives.

 

[G.T.]

i did not start this thread. I am not on trial!

I did not come up with the laughable premise that criticizing foreign policy is the same as the ground zero imam's comments.

I do not have to justify myself.

You are the one that needs to justify how you think criticizing foreign policy is the same as this:

we tend to forget, in the west that the united states has more muslim blood on it's hands than al qaeda has on its hands of innocent non-muslims. You may remember that the us-led saction against iraq led to the death of over half a million children iraqi children. This has been documented by the united nations.

how do you tell people whose homes have been destroyed, whose lives have been destroyed, that this does not justify your actions of terrorism? It's hard. Yes, it is true that it does not justify the acts of bombing innocent civilians. That does not solve the problem. But after 50 years of, in many cases, oppression, of u.s. Support of authoritarian regimes that have violated human rights in the most heinous of ways how else do people get attention? So, i'm not - i'm just providing you with the arguments that are happening intra-islamically by those who feel the emotion of pain.
new imam audio: Latest on ground zero mosque | the fox nation

video at same link!

Later in the same video he calls the us an "accessory" to 9/11!

The fact that you keep trying to make the debate about me and not defending your own position betrays the weakness of your premise.

You know on rational examination it's not defensible, and is nothing more than weak relativism.

my question is in regard to defending my position you bumbling idiot.

Because if you say that obama/carter's policies would cost innocent lives, then that's the same as imam saying obama's/carter's/reagan's/nixon's/clinton's/bush's, etc. Policies are costing innocent lives. It isn't any different.

wait a minute. I have to defend your position, but i'm the bumbling idiot???????

Have you ever taken any courses in logic or debate. I am not required to defend your position!!!!!!!!!!!

I am not required to accept your premise!!!!!!

I'm the bumbling idiot!

It is you that has to explain how criticism of obama's foreign policy is the same as the ground zero imam justifying terrorism!

we tend to forget, in the west that the united states has more muslim blood on it's hands than al qaeda has on its hands of innocent non-muslims. You may remember that the us-led saction against iraq led to the death of over half a million children iraqi children. This has been documented by the united nations.

how do you tell people whose homes have been destroyed, whose lives have been destroyed, that this does not justify your actions of terrorism? It's hard. Yes, it is true that it does not justify the acts of bombing innocent civilians. That does not solve the problem. But after 50 years of, in many cases, oppression, of u.s. Support of authoritarian regimes that have violated human rights in the most heinous of ways how else do people get attention? So, i'm not - i'm just providing you with the arguments that are happening intra-islamically by those who feel the emotion of pain.
new imam audio: Latest on ground zero mosque | the fox nation

video at same link!

Later in the same video he calls the us an "accessory" to 9/11!

I am still waiting for your answer.

the post you just quoted explained it quite nicely for you dum dum.

 

[teapartysamurai]

you're just too dumb for words, to be honest.

there's a few adults in here willing to have a discussion

and a few that are spinning someone's words out of context and out of control, despite his own words debunking what you're saying they're saying.

it's like talking with little kids, seriously. just leave, for fuck's sake, if you don't want to discuss it.

OH you WISH I'D LEAVE!!!!!!!

You thought you could float this RIDICULOUS trial balloon and have people take it seriously.

So sorry, I popped your trial balloon, but you are getting the scorn YOU DESERVE.

To equate ANYONE that justifies terrorism, and says America is an accessory to 9/11 to American citizens disagreeing with foreign policy DESERVES EVERYTHING HE GETS!

And I intend to see that happens. Go back to your handlers and tell them this one didn't work.

 

[G.T.]

No sorry. That is still demanding I accept your laughable premise of them being the same.

The idea that I cannot question foreign policy (in a country that has free speech) OR it's akin to saying the US has blood on it's hands is a LAUGHABLE PREMISE.

No sorry, the premise here is YOU AGREE with the comments of the Imam and you are trying to spin, that they are no different than disagreeing with foreign policy.

But the idea that disagreeing with foreign policy IS THE SAME AS JUSTIFYING TERRORISM, is not an intelligent position. It's just smarmy spin because an intelligent examination would reveal the gaping hold in logic.

What, in your opinion, are the ill effects of Carter's/Obama's foreign policy? You're incapable of answering, yes? you don't have to accept any premise, these are two very straight forward questions that you should have no problem fielding since YOU have AN OPINION, APPARENTLY.

You keep bringing up Carter's foreign policy and trying somehow to connect them to Obama. I'm not sure why, But the fact is Obama's foreign policy is basically Bush's foreign policy, not much has changed in that regard. And as for Carter, the only criticism I had was his naivette when it came to the Soviet Union. Carter actually did some good things with his foreign policy, the return of the Panama Canal, he normalized relations with the People's Republic of China, he establishmed lasting peace between Egypt and Israel with the Camp David Accords. Now he made mistakes, as most humans do, but his or anyone else's mistakes do not justify the taking of almost 3000 innocent lives.

Nobody said they did.

 

[johnrocks]

Tell that to the ground zero Imam who says the US is just as compliant in 9/11.

We tend to forget, in the West that the United States has more muslim blood on it's hands than Al Qaeda has on its hands of innocent non-muslims. You may remember that the US-led saction against Iraq led to the death of over half a million children Iraqi children. This has been documented by the United Nations.

How do you tell people whose homes have been destroyed, whose lives have been destroyed, that this does not justify your actions of terrorism? It's hard. Yes, it is true that it does not justify the acts of bombing innocent civilians. That does not solve the problem. But after 50 years of, in many cases, oppression, of U.S. support of authoritarian regimes that have violated human rights in the most heinous of ways how else do people get attention? So, I'm not - I'm just providing you with the arguments that are happening intra-Islamically by those who feel the emotion of pain.
New Imam Audio: Latest on Ground Zero Mosque | The FOX Nation

Video at same link!

LATER IN THE SAME VIDEO HE CALLS THE US AN "ACCESSORY" TO 9/11!


This guy thinks the US has blood on it's hands, AND GT thinks this is no different than anyone who criticizes foreign policy?

Who's putting the emotion in the debate????????

Go hear his entire conversation instead of the one that is out of context, he's talking about how US Foreign Policy can cause unintended consequences, not that America is to blame and he has a point;imho.

So, you think he is right too.

Nice!

He has a point!

You a conservative? Take the emotion out of this for a minute and try to connect the dots to what I'm trying to convey.

Government intervention regarding...

Healthcare...You think government intervention caused most of our problems regarding this or do you blame the consumers, Doctors or insurance companies?

Welfare...Same thing, it has caused serious unintended consequences such as "white flight" from the inner cities that led to a crumbling tax base which led to a deteriorating inner city.

Education...Government intervention has led to a crumbling education system with higher tuition rates, teachers not being able to be fired due to incompetence etc.

Foreign policy....Blame Merica if we discuss it in this context

Conservatives lost it when they became so inconsistent, they spend half their time praising the federal government for its miracles in Iraq and the other half of their time bitching about the Democrats for thinking that the same federal government can provide medical insurance for everyone. , they will holler &#8220;government never gets anything right" when discussing everything from socialized medicine to Medicare to food stamps but holler "you blamin Merica" and "TRAITOR" when the same logic and reasoning is applied to foreign policy and I'm the one called

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Tell that to the ground zero Imam who says the US is just as compliant in 9/11.

We tend to forget, in the West that the United States has more muslim blood on it's hands than Al Qaeda has on its hands of innocent non-muslims. You may remember that the US-led saction against Iraq led to the death of over half a million children Iraqi children. This has been documented by the United Nations.

How do you tell people whose homes have been destroyed, whose lives have been destroyed, that this does not justify your actions of terrorism? It's hard. Yes, it is true that it does not justify the acts of bombing innocent civilians. That does not solve the problem. But after 50 years of, in many cases, oppression, of U.S. support of authoritarian regimes that have violated human rights in the most heinous of ways how else do people get attention? So, I'm not - I'm just providing you with the arguments that are happening intra-Islamically by those who feel the emotion of pain.
New Imam Audio: Latest on Ground Zero Mosque | The FOX Nation

Video at same link!

LATER IN THE SAME VIDEO HE CALLS THE US AN "ACCESSORY" TO 9/11!


This guy thinks the US has blood on it's hands, AND GT thinks this is no different than anyone who criticizes foreign policy?

Who's putting the emotion in the debate????????

Go hear his entire conversation instead of the one that is out of context, he's talking about how US Foreign Policy can cause unintended consequences, not that America is to blame and he has a point;imho.

You too, Lonestar. All you're doing is taking, now, someone ELSE's spin of what he's saying and saying "let's see you spin this."

This sin't third grade. He very clearly stated that it's not justified.

Look if you choose to remain ignorant then that's fine. The fact is Rauf in one instance says it's not justified but in other instances he's implied that it was. Now I've read a lot of speeches by Rauf and he, like Obama, changes his postition depending on who he's addressing.

 

[G.T.]

you're just too dumb for words, to be honest.

there's a few adults in here willing to have a discussion

and a few that are spinning someone's words out of context and out of control, despite his own words debunking what you're saying they're saying.

it's like talking with little kids, seriously. just leave, for fuck's sake, if you don't want to discuss it.

OH you WISH I'D LEAVE!!!!!!!

You thought you could float this RIDICULOUS trial balloon and have people take it seriously.

So sorry, I popped your trial balloon, but you are getting the scorn YOU DESERVE.

To equate ANYONE that justifies terrorism, and says America is an accessory to 9/11 to American citizens disagreeing with foreign policy DESERVES EVERYTHING HE GETS!

And I intend to see that happens. Go back to your handlers and tell them this one didn't work.

yEA, EXCEPT NOBODY SAID TERRORISM WAS JUSTIFIED, WHICH IS WHY YOU'RE A RETARD.

 

[teapartysamurai]

You too, Lonestar. All you're doing is taking, now, someone ELSE's spin of what he's saying and saying "let's see you spin this."

This sin't third grade. He very clearly stated that it's not justified.

Oh please! Have you never read 1984 or ever heard of doublespeak?

He "clearly" states he's against terrorism, and in the next breathe GOES RIGHT ON JUSTIFYING TERRORISM.

It would be no different than me saying "What Tim McVeigh did was wrong, but I can understand his anger and the blood America has on it's hands, blah blah blah" thus JUSTIFYING McVeigh's actions.

It's typical CYA doublespeak and the only people it would fool are those who agree with terrorism anyway.

We tend to forget, in the West that the United States has more muslim blood on it's hands than Al Qaeda has on its hands of innocent non-muslims. You may remember that the US-led saction against Iraq led to the death of over half a million children Iraqi children. This has been documented by the United Nations.

How do you tell people whose homes have been destroyed, whose lives have been destroyed, that this does not justify your actions of terrorism? It's hard. Yes, it is true that it does not justify the acts of bombing innocent civilians. That does not solve the problem. But after 50 years of, in many cases, oppression, of U.S. support of authoritarian regimes that have violated human rights in the most heinous of ways how else do people get attention? So, I'm not - I'm just providing you with the arguments that are happening intra-Islamically by those who feel the emotion of pain.
New Imam Audio: Latest on Ground Zero Mosque | The FOX Nation

Video at same link!

LATER IN THE SAME VIDEO HE CALLS THE US AN "ACCESSORY" TO 9/11!

no, wrong. saying that you can understand someone's ill-founded perception is not the same as JUSTIFYING their perception. do you know how logic even works, or no?

Yeah, I understand double speak real well.

Yeah liberals do that all the time.

They don't "condone" the violence from the LA riots, but they "understand their rage."

They don't condone 9/11, but we should "try to understand their anger and why they hate us."

It all boils down to LIBERALS HATE AMERICA, and want all of us in the US to feel "guilty" whenever someone commits an act of violence against us, because it's really "our fault."

Oh I understand that BS completely.

It's still justifying the acts. You don't see us "understanding" the anger of Ted Bundy or other mass murderers. But, if that mass murderer has an axe to grind against the US, won't liberals go out of their way to try and wring sympathy for them.

DISGUSTING!