Are the Palestinians a real people?

[Shusha]

Having said all that, its important not to lose sight of the goals here. The goal of this sort of humanitarian law is to restore safety and dignity to people who have, through no individual act of their own, lost the ability to live in security.

If we put THAT measure on it, it should be pretty easy to recognize who should be helped and to some extent, how.

Palestinians incorporated into their own national entity are not refugees.
Palestinians incorporated into another national entity are not refugees.
Palestinians kept in camps in Lebanon should be able to avail themselves of their own nationality (Palestinian).
Somalis kept in camps in Kenya should be able avail themselves of their own nationality (Somalia).

In the case of Somalia, the argument against repatriation is that the country is still very unstable and repatriation of so many may be disruptive.

On the other hand, sometimes host countries should incorporate refugees. It would be economically beneficial for Kenya to accept the refugees. The concern for Kenya is Somali jihadis.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

They speak Arabic, like in 21 other countries. They wear the keffiya and hijab, like in 21 other countries. They eat hummus and shwarma, like in 21 other countries. They celebrate Mohammed's birthday and Abraham's near sacrifice of his son, like in 21 other countries.


In Israel, they speak Hebrew. It's the only country with this national language. In Israel, they wear the kippa and kova temble, like in no other country. In Israel, they eat gefilte fish, kugel, kishke, and cholent, like in no other country. In Israel, the national holidays are Yom Kippur, Passover and Hanukkah. These are no other country's national holidays.

Why does Tinmore want to destroy the only Jewish state in the world to set up a 22nd jihadist state? Is this what the world really needs?

You do know the Palestinians were the only Arab state to be on our side in WWII?
And they had been there for 4000 years until Rothschild / the uk bankers kicked them off and formed Israel?

1) There is a famous picture of a Palestinian Mufti meeting with Hitler.

2) The Palestinians are not descended from the Canaanites of 4000 years ago. The Canaanites were both destroyed and assimilated into the Hebrew nation. The Palestinians are Arabs.

 

[toomuchtime_]

No, by that definition the person who left Somalia is a refugee, but if he had a child in Kenya, that child is not a refugee.

The definition you quoted specifically excludes people uprooted simply because of war, therefore people fleeing war, including civil war, are not refugees by the 1951 Convention/1967 Protocol definition. Nor are Palestinian refugees. Given that Somalis can return and have been returning, technically, by the 1951 Convention/1967 Protocol definition, they are not refugees.

Under the principle of family unity, children and other family members of a refugee are normally considered refugees themselves. Family members may also qualify as refugees independently, depending on their own national status, which may different from their family members.

One of the ways these laws are changing is in the re-defining of "refugee" as opposed to "asylum-seeker".

Its a hugely complicated section of international humanitarian law (IHL) and international customary law (ICL), and it doesn't translate well to sound bytes.

I only quoted the part that would apply to the descendants of refugees, but if you looked at the link I provided, it clearly states that people fleeing war are refugees. In fact the 1951 convention addressed the issue of people who were displaced by WWII.

The 1951 convention is the official position of the UN on all refugees other than the Palestinians, who are covered under UNRWA, and whatever other documents or principles you think or might want to apply have no basis in international law.

 

[Coyote]

I would still count those who have not been given citizenship in the countries they reside in as refugees including descendants considered refugees under UNHCR rules.

I disagree. In order to avoid statelessness, people should be granted the citizenship of the state they were born in. There is no reason people who are fully integrated into a society should be denied citizenship in order to keep them as refugees. This just encourages the "not our problem, let's just keep them in camps for three, or four or five generations" until someone else decides what to do with them.

And they SHOULD all have Palestinian citizenship.

They should be granted citizenship where born, I agree, and Palestinian citizenship, but the reality is it hasn’t happened and until it does they are refugees. Even Palestinian citizenship doesn’t mean much if there is no state to take them in.

 

[Coyote]

Having said all that, its important not to lose sight of the goals here. The goal of this sort of humanitarian law is to restore safety and dignity to people who have, through no individual act of their own, lost the ability to live in security.

If we put THAT measure on it, it should be pretty easy to recognize who should be helped and to some extent, how.

Palestinians incorporated into their own national entity are not refugees.
Palestinians incorporated into another national entity are not refugees.
Palestinians kept in camps in Lebanon should be able to avail themselves of their own nationality (Palestinian).
Somalis kept in camps in Kenya should be able avail themselves of their own nationality (Somalia).

In the case of Somalia, the argument against repatriation is that the country is still very unstable and repatriation of so many may be disruptive.

On the other hand, sometimes host countries should incorporate refugees. It would be economically beneficial for Kenya to accept the refugees. The concern for Kenya is Somali jihadis.

But how would you handle a case like the Rohinga, who’s persecution and attempted genocide is well documented. It is unlikely they could ever return in safety...and Bangladesh is in no condition to absorb them.

 

[Coyote]

They speak Arabic, like in 21 other countries. They wear the keffiya and hijab, like in 21 other countries. They eat hummus and shwarma, like in 21 other countries. They celebrate Mohammed's birthday and Abraham's near sacrifice of his son, like in 21 other countries.


In Israel, they speak Hebrew. It's the only country with this national language. In Israel, they wear the kippa and kova temble, like in no other country. In Israel, they eat gefilte fish, kugel, kishke, and cholent, like in no other country. In Israel, the national holidays are Yom Kippur, Passover and Hanukkah. These are no other country's national holidays.

Why does Tinmore want to destroy the only Jewish state in the world to set up a 22nd jihadist state? Is this what the world really needs?

You do know the Palestinians were the only Arab state to be on our side in WWII?
And they had been there for 4000 years until Rothschild / the uk bankers kicked them off and formed Israel?

1) There is a famous picture of a Palestinian Mufti meeting with Hitler.

2) The Palestinians are not descended from the Canaanites of 4000 years ago. The Canaanites were both destroyed and assimilated into the Hebrew nation. The Palestinians are Arabs.

The Palestinians are also descendants of Hebrews.

 

[Shusha]

Having said all that, its important not to lose sight of the goals here. The goal of this sort of humanitarian law is to restore safety and dignity to people who have, through no individual act of their own, lost the ability to live in security.

If we put THAT measure on it, it should be pretty easy to recognize who should be helped and to some extent, how.

Palestinians incorporated into their own national entity are not refugees.
Palestinians incorporated into another national entity are not refugees.
Palestinians kept in camps in Lebanon should be able to avail themselves of their own nationality (Palestinian).
Somalis kept in camps in Kenya should be able avail themselves of their own nationality (Somalia).

In the case of Somalia, the argument against repatriation is that the country is still very unstable and repatriation of so many may be disruptive.

On the other hand, sometimes host countries should incorporate refugees. It would be economically beneficial for Kenya to accept the refugees. The concern for Kenya is Somali jihadis.

But how would you handle a case like the Rohinga, who’s persecution and attempted genocide is well documented. It is unlikely they could ever return in safety...and Bangladesh is in no condition to absorb them.

Ha! I'm not sure I have that kind of "how would you save the world, Shusha?" answer. Its a huge, complicated problem.

I mean, how DO we stop people treating other people as less than human?

Seems to me the order of operations should be: physical safety; security of physical safety; water, food, sanitation, health care; education; employment; resettlement, absorption or repatriation, depending on the political circumstances.

The bigger question, honestly, is how to facilitate the still-growing trend of breaking down old empires into smaller and smaller ethnic groups, tribes and clans. How can that be done peacefully?

 

[Shusha]

The Palestinians are also descendants of Hebrews.

Some may be. But given that they have rejected the Hebrew culture in favor of their Arab culture, this has no meaning and doesn't need to be applied in modern times.

 

[Uncensored2008]

They speak Arabic, like in 21 other countries. They wear the keffiya and hijab, like in 21 other countries. They eat hummus and shwarma, like in 21 other countries. They celebrate Mohammed's birthday and Abraham's near sacrifice of his son, like in 21 other countries.


In Israel, they speak Hebrew. It's the only country with this national language. In Israel, they wear the kippa and kova temble, like in no other country. In Israel, they eat gefilte fish, kugel, kishke, and cholent, like in no other country. In Israel, the national holidays are Yom Kippur, Passover and Hanukkah. These are no other country's national holidays.

Why does Tinmore want to destroy the only Jewish state in the world to set up a 22nd jihadist state? Is this what the world really needs?

Why do you need to deny Palestinians their identity in order to support Jewish rights?

Its NOT their identity to speak Arabic, wear keffiya and hijab, eat hummus and shwarma, celebrate Mohammed's birthday and Abraham's near sacrifice of his son?

Seems to me ForeverYoung436 was accepting Arab Palestinian identity, rather than denying it.

You do realize that Palestinians are also Christian?

And how is attempting to portray them as just like any other Arab accepting their identity? It isn’t. It is denying their identity as Palestinians.

Not anymore. Hamas has murdered just about all the Christians in Bethlehem.

These are one you support, Hamas and Hezbollah.

{In 1950, Bethlehem and the surrounding villages were 86 percent Christian. But by 2016, the Christian population dipped to just 12 percent, according Bethlehem mayor Vera Baboun. Across the West Bank, Christians now account for less than 2 percent of the population, though in the 1970s, Christians were 5 percent of the population. In Bethlehem, the traditional birthplace of Jesus, today there are just 11,000 Christians.}

Bethlehem's declining Christian population casts shadow over Christmas

You've murdered them all, just as you said you would.

 

[Coyote]

Having said all that, its important not to lose sight of the goals here. The goal of this sort of humanitarian law is to restore safety and dignity to people who have, through no individual act of their own, lost the ability to live in security.

If we put THAT measure on it, it should be pretty easy to recognize who should be helped and to some extent, how.

Palestinians incorporated into their own national entity are not refugees.
Palestinians incorporated into another national entity are not refugees.
Palestinians kept in camps in Lebanon should be able to avail themselves of their own nationality (Palestinian).
Somalis kept in camps in Kenya should be able avail themselves of their own nationality (Somalia).

In the case of Somalia, the argument against repatriation is that the country is still very unstable and repatriation of so many may be disruptive.

On the other hand, sometimes host countries should incorporate refugees. It would be economically beneficial for Kenya to accept the refugees. The concern for Kenya is Somali jihadis.

But how would you handle a case like the Rohinga, who’s persecution and attempted genocide is well documented. It is unlikely they could ever return in safety...and Bangladesh is in no condition to absorb them.

Ha! I'm not sure I have that kind of "how would you save the world, Shusha?" answer. Its a huge, complicated problem.

I mean, how DO we stop people treating other people as less than human?

Seems to me the order of operations should be: physical safety; security of physical safety; water, food, sanitation, health care; education; employment; resettlement, absorption or repatriation, depending on the political circumstances.

The bigger question, honestly, is how to facilitate the still-growing trend of breaking down old empires into smaller and smaller ethnic groups, tribes and clans. How can that be done peacefully?

Very complicated and not going that great in many parts of the world. And...to add to the bigger question - the effects of climate change around the world creating increasing instability, economic insecurity, famine.

I agree with the order of operations and I also think we need a fundamental change in how we view these things. It's not a "state" problem or a regional problem - it's a world wide problem. When we have more displaced people now then we ever have had since WW2 - then that is not a problem up to Jordan, Lebanon or Europe to resolve - it's all of our problem. But instead of coming together we are seeing a rise in nationalism (which is really just another form of tribalism) putting up walls. I think the Palestinians in refugee camps deserve a future - citizenship, and the ability to fully work and be integrated into the host country and pressure should be applied to make that happen.

 

[Coyote]

They speak Arabic, like in 21 other countries. They wear the keffiya and hijab, like in 21 other countries. They eat hummus and shwarma, like in 21 other countries. They celebrate Mohammed's birthday and Abraham's near sacrifice of his son, like in 21 other countries.


In Israel, they speak Hebrew. It's the only country with this national language. In Israel, they wear the kippa and kova temble, like in no other country. In Israel, they eat gefilte fish, kugel, kishke, and cholent, like in no other country. In Israel, the national holidays are Yom Kippur, Passover and Hanukkah. These are no other country's national holidays.

Why does Tinmore want to destroy the only Jewish state in the world to set up a 22nd jihadist state? Is this what the world really needs?

Why do you need to deny Palestinians their identity in order to support Jewish rights?

Its NOT their identity to speak Arabic, wear keffiya and hijab, eat hummus and shwarma, celebrate Mohammed's birthday and Abraham's near sacrifice of his son?

Seems to me ForeverYoung436 was accepting Arab Palestinian identity, rather than denying it.

You do realize that Palestinians are also Christian?

And how is attempting to portray them as just like any other Arab accepting their identity? It isn’t. It is denying their identity as Palestinians.

Not anymore. Hamas has murdered just about all the Christians in Bethlehem.

These are one you support, Hamas and Hezbollah.

{In 1950, Bethlehem and the surrounding villages were 86 percent Christian. But by 2016, the Christian population dipped to just 12 percent, according Bethlehem mayor Vera Baboun. Across the West Bank, Christians now account for less than 2 percent of the population, though in the 1970s, Christians were 5 percent of the population. In Bethlehem, the traditional birthplace of Jesus, today there are just 11,000 Christians.}

Bethlehem's declining Christian population casts shadow over Christmas

You've murdered them all, just as you said you would.

Who is "you"?

And, actually, if you bothered to read a bit beyond talking points you would realize that the reason the Christian population has dropped is not because they've been murdered. Part of it is the economic devastation in Gaza, leaving them unable to find work and support their families. Added to that is the general discrimination under Hamas.

Try telling the truth occasionally. Even your article doesn't say what you are claiming:

Walid al-Shatleh, a gym teacher at Talitha Kumi school in Beit Jala, a traditionally Christian village next to Bethlehem, is one of the Palestinian Christians considering emigration. He and his extended family are debating between moving to Canada or Australia.

Al-Shatleh said the Israeli army seized 24 dunams (six acres) of his farmland to construct the separation wall between Israel and the Palestinian territories, cutting down his family's old growth olive trees and ruining his livelihood.

"We feel like there is no future for us in this land," he said. "I can travel to Europe and move freely between countries, even leaving my passport [at the hotel]. But here, I have to show my ID everywhere I go, I have to cross a checkpoint every day," he said. "I can't visit the Church of the Holy Sepulcher, I used to go once a month but now I need special permission."

"We live like we're an animal in a cage in a zoo, there's only one exit and entrance which is a piece of paper from Israeli authorities saying when I can go to Jerusalem and at what time," al-Shatleh added.​

 

[Coyote]

The Palestinians are also descendants of Hebrews.

Some may be. But given that they have rejected the Hebrew culture in favor of their Arab culture, this has no meaning and doesn't need to be applied in modern times.

But it is wrong to deny they aren't descended and insist they are recent arrivals - that's the thing. While some are immigrants from other Arab states, many are not.

 

[Shusha]

Having said all that, its important not to lose sight of the goals here. The goal of this sort of humanitarian law is to restore safety and dignity to people who have, through no individual act of their own, lost the ability to live in security.

If we put THAT measure on it, it should be pretty easy to recognize who should be helped and to some extent, how.

Palestinians incorporated into their own national entity are not refugees.
Palestinians incorporated into another national entity are not refugees.
Palestinians kept in camps in Lebanon should be able to avail themselves of their own nationality (Palestinian).
Somalis kept in camps in Kenya should be able avail themselves of their own nationality (Somalia).

In the case of Somalia, the argument against repatriation is that the country is still very unstable and repatriation of so many may be disruptive.

On the other hand, sometimes host countries should incorporate refugees. It would be economically beneficial for Kenya to accept the refugees. The concern for Kenya is Somali jihadis.

But how would you handle a case like the Rohinga, who’s persecution and attempted genocide is well documented. It is unlikely they could ever return in safety...and Bangladesh is in no condition to absorb them.

Ha! I'm not sure I have that kind of "how would you save the world, Shusha?" answer. Its a huge, complicated problem.

I mean, how DO we stop people treating other people as less than human?

Seems to me the order of operations should be: physical safety; security of physical safety; water, food, sanitation, health care; education; employment; resettlement, absorption or repatriation, depending on the political circumstances.

The bigger question, honestly, is how to facilitate the still-growing trend of breaking down old empires into smaller and smaller ethnic groups, tribes and clans. How can that be done peacefully?

Very complicated and not going that great in many parts of the world. And...to add to the bigger question - the effects of climate change around the world creating increasing instability, economic insecurity, famine.

I agree with the order of operations and I also think we need a fundamental change in how we view these things. It's not a "state" problem or a regional problem - it's a world wide problem. When we have more displaced people now then we ever have had since WW2 - then that is not a problem up to Jordan, Lebanon or Europe to resolve - it's all of our problem. But instead of coming together we are seeing a rise in nationalism (which is really just another form of tribalism) putting up walls. I think the Palestinians in refugee camps deserve a future - citizenship, and the ability to fully work and be integrated into the host country and pressure should be applied to make that happen.

And the refugees themselves need a say, I think. Would they rather go to Palestine or stay where they are in Lebanon/Jordan or be resettled somewhere else?

I find it very troubling that the new trend seems to be -- lock them behind a wall.

 

[Ropey]

Yes, they are real. Real Arabs. Indigent to Arabia.

Palestine is not even an Arab name. There has never been a Palestinian country.

It's a fantasy based 'virtual state' in which virtual... by definition means 'unstable.'

 

[Shusha]

The Palestinians are also descendants of Hebrews.

Some may be. But given that they have rejected the Hebrew culture in favor of their Arab culture, this has no meaning and doesn't need to be applied in modern times.

But it is wrong to deny they aren't descended and insist they are recent arrivals - that's the thing. While some are immigrants from other Arab states, many are not.

I don't think anyone is denying the plain, factual, reality that some of the may be descended from those of previous cultures, even when they spew sound bytes like, "go back to Arabia". (And I don't know how we'd sort out who was who anyway. And the whole thing still reeks to me of "blood purity" which is gross.)

The point for me is that NO ONE should be using Arab's "blood purity" or lack of it to either claim a heritage which is not actually theirs nor to deny their continued rights to live in the land and have self-determination there.

Arab Palestinians need to recognize that they left behind their Hebrew heritage and therefore it is no longer relevant to them (and they can't use it, let alone weaponize it). And Team Israel needs to recognize that collective Arab rights to that place are valid, simply because of their long tenure there, regardless of how it occurred.

 

[Shusha]

Indigent to Arabia....There has never been a Palestinian country.

Both these statements are true. Neither statement erases the Arab Palestinians self-identification or right to self-determination in that territory. New States come into being all the time. While there are obstacles to Palestine fully becoming a state, the fact that there hasn't been one in the past is not an obstacle to it becoming one in the future.

 

[Ropey]

It's more of an obstacle than if it did have a history. Let's just say that. The Kurds can't get 'er done and they're trying in a neighborhood of all Islam.

 

[admonit]

Nowhere else in the world does the UN consider a descendant of a refugee also a refugee.

This isn't really strictly true. While I agree that there are "special rules" for the Palestinians, there are other places in the world where descendants carry the status of refugees.

Dadaab camp in Kenya has 330,000 Somali refugees, three generations. Admittedly, this is an unusual case, in that the refugees of Dadaab have not been permitted to leave.

"UNHCR set up the first camps in the Dadaab complex in 1991 to host up to 90,000 people."
Dadaab - World's biggest refugee camp 20 years old

28 years ago.

"The first camp was established in 1991, when refugees fleeing the civil war in Somalia started to cross the border into Kenya. A second large influx occurred in 2011, when some 130,000 refugees arrived"
Dadaab Refugee Complex - UNHCR Kenya

8 years ago.

What three generation?

"The Dadaab refugee complex has a population of 217,108 registered refugees and asylum seekers as at the end of October 2019."
Dadaab Refugee Complex - UNHCR Kenya

It's unlikely that refugees' children, born in Kenya, are registered as refugees.

 

[Shusha]

It's unlikely that refugees' children, born in Kenya, are registered as refugees.

Actually, family unity, they are registered as refugees.

They are children born in a camp where neither they or their parents are permitted to leave. If they are not refugees, what are they? Are they Somalis? Are they Kenyans? Are they something else? Are they nothing?

Like seriously, everyone who wants to play black and white here needs to choose what their black and white is. Who is responsible for refugees? The country of origin? The host country? A resettlement country (generally the world -- spread them around to nations which can afford to absorb them?)

 

[Shusha]

What three generation?

Do you need me to do math for you?

23 year old woman enters Dadaab refugee camp in 1991. She is generation one.

She has a child the next year, 1992. That child is generation two.

That child has a child in 2010. That child is generation three.


In 2019 there are three generations of children living in that refugee camp.