Are the Palestinians a real people?

Nimrod also thought that the state was everything. Then he was told:

"You have been weighed in the balance and found wanting."

And was nevermore.

Never mind with your cryptic statements. They are narrow minded and not very deep. I remember when I was a student in Bar Ilan in 1982, and took a bus to the Tomb of the Patriarchs in Hebron. As I got off the bus, a smiling stranger met me and proceeded to take me all around the tombs. It was an hour before I found out he was an Arab. I wore a kippa, so he knew I was Jewish right away. And here in NY, I worked with an Arab who used to call me "Cousin." Not all Arabs are animals.
No one said that they were.

And.

There's nothing cryptic about you bowing to the state. Kapos did as well. Bolsheviks also.

Guys guys...

Instead of wasting time arguing about those whom the Torah calls 'no-people',
You could make Aliyah and vote in the next elections this spring.

Or before voting, join the ongoing discussions about Parliamentary Monarchy,
then instead of arguing about "bowing to state", You can argue who makes the King's Bracha and who answers Amen.

The Arabs... once relieved of the burden of playing the role the West projects on them, and responsibility for creating something they neither want nor know how, will have less psychological obstacles fitting into a power structure, an environment for which they've been wired and used to in the middle east most naturally.

All I'm saying we might not need another '67 to order things in their place,
just look at all the Arabs gathering around Rabbi Zamir Cohen...

I already have and do. Now I just come back to Canada for pension purposes and to visit.

Our left are somewhat better since they know the danger. The Western leftist Jews are far more philosophical about the danger.

js

Baruch Shuvcha Tzadik!

As regarding leftist Jews in the West, first of all there's a whole different spectrum of Judaism abroad - if in Israel, and I'll exaggerate to make a point, we're merely religious or secular, there they're confused by various new brands (conservative/progressive/reform and what else) of this and that Judaism, that to me seems to survive the "market" only as philosophical alternative, to acknowledging they're bound by commandments that can only be fulfilled in the land.

There stands a clear contradiction at this pivotal point of history, and all these trends are like psychological bandages used to distract from reality.

The question is rather how do WE assume the responsibility, and burst that bubble before time for making decisions is up?

They tried to turn us into Egyptians, Assyrians, Babylonians, Romans, etc.

We remain. Each time our own attempted to turn us.

We needed Moses to save us from becoming Egyptian. (Joseph) We needed Judas to save us from becoming Christian (Jesus) and we need G-d to save us from being secular.

Personal Tshuva is the answer. And like you said, the choice will be over when that bubble of division bursts.
 
I don't appreciate being called a Kapo. First of all, Ropey, who are you to even judge anyone who lived in a concentration camp? Unless you went thru it yourself, we can never understand what those desperate, starving Jews went thru at all. Secondly, being called a traitor is a terrible thing to call a fellow Jew. We say in our prayers, "v'limalshinim al tihi tikvah"...there should be no hope for informants. It would take many more years for there to be any hope for the so-called Palestinians to shape up themselves enough to deserve a state in the heartland of Israel. As it is now, it's just not possible. I'm concerned more about my fellow Jews than about the Arabs, and I just would like for there to be peace, like we pray for all the time. As for leftist Jews, my Israeli cousins are more leftist than I will ever be. I would never sell out my fellow Jews, and my heart bleeds more for them than for any Arab. As for worshipping the state and other things like that, it's not really relevant to this discussion. So please no more of these Shame on you comments, wishing me to go to hell, and other such narishkeit/nonsense.
 
Nowhere else in the world does the UN consider a descendant of a refugee also a refugee.

This isn't really strictly true. While I agree that there are "special rules" for the Palestinians, there are other places in the world where descendants carry the status of refugees.

Dadaab camp in Kenya has 330,000 Somali refugees, three generations. Admittedly, this is an unusual case, in that the refugees of Dadaab have not been permitted to leave.
"UNHCR set up the first camps in the Dadaab complex in 1991 to host up to 90,000 people."
Dadaab - World's biggest refugee camp 20 years old

28 years ago.

"The first camp was established in 1991, when refugees fleeing the civil war in Somalia started to cross the border into Kenya. A second large influx occurred in 2011, when some 130,000 refugees arrived"
Dadaab Refugee Complex - UNHCR Kenya

8 years ago.

What three generation?

"The Dadaab refugee complex has a population of 217,108 registered refugees and asylum seekers as at the end of October 2019."
Dadaab Refugee Complex - UNHCR Kenya

It's unlikely that refugees' children, born in Kenya, are registered as refugees.
The Mayukwayuka camp in Zambia was set up in 1966. That would be 3 generations.
But as we have seen, under UNHCR rules only those who left Angola are refugees and not descendants born in Zambia.
We have seen no such thing.
 
Nowhere else in the world does the UN consider a descendant of a refugee also a refugee.

This isn't really strictly true. While I agree that there are "special rules" for the Palestinians, there are other places in the world where descendants carry the status of refugees.

Dadaab camp in Kenya has 330,000 Somali refugees, three generations. Admittedly, this is an unusual case, in that the refugees of Dadaab have not been permitted to leave.
"UNHCR set up the first camps in the Dadaab complex in 1991 to host up to 90,000 people."
Dadaab - World's biggest refugee camp 20 years old

28 years ago.

"The first camp was established in 1991, when refugees fleeing the civil war in Somalia started to cross the border into Kenya. A second large influx occurred in 2011, when some 130,000 refugees arrived"
Dadaab Refugee Complex - UNHCR Kenya

8 years ago.

What three generation?

"The Dadaab refugee complex has a population of 217,108 registered refugees and asylum seekers as at the end of October 2019."
Dadaab Refugee Complex - UNHCR Kenya

It's unlikely that refugees' children, born in Kenya, are registered as refugees.
The Mayukwayuka camp in Zambia was set up in 1966. That would be 3 generations.
But as we have seen, under UNHCR rules only those who left Angola are refugees and not descendants born in Zambia.
We have seen no such thing.
lol You saw it, but apparently you didn't understand it.
 
Never mind with your cryptic statements. They are narrow minded and not very deep. I remember when I was a student in Bar Ilan in 1982, and took a bus to the Tomb of the Patriarchs in Hebron. As I got off the bus, a smiling stranger met me and proceeded to take me all around the tombs. It was an hour before I found out he was an Arab. I wore a kippa, so he knew I was Jewish right away. And here in NY, I worked with an Arab who used to call me "Cousin." Not all Arabs are animals.
No one said that they were.

And.

There's nothing cryptic about you bowing to the state. Kapos did as well. Bolsheviks also.

Guys guys...

Instead of wasting time arguing about those whom the Torah calls 'no-people',
You could make Aliyah and vote in the next elections this spring.

Or before voting, join the ongoing discussions about Parliamentary Monarchy,
then instead of arguing about "bowing to state", You can argue who makes the King's Bracha and who answers Amen.

The Arabs... once relieved of the burden of playing the role the West projects on them, and responsibility for creating something they neither want nor know how, will have less psychological obstacles fitting into a power structure, an environment for which they've been wired and used to in the middle east most naturally.

All I'm saying we might not need another '67 to order things in their place,
just look at all the Arabs gathering around Rabbi Zamir Cohen...

I already have and do. Now I just come back to Canada for pension purposes and to visit.

Our left are somewhat better since they know the danger. The Western leftist Jews are far more philosophical about the danger.

js

Baruch Shuvcha Tzadik!

As regarding leftist Jews in the West, first of all there's a whole different spectrum of Judaism abroad - if in Israel, and I'll exaggerate to make a point, we're merely religious or secular, there they're confused by various new brands (conservative/progressive/reform and what else) of this and that Judaism, that to me seems to survive the "market" only as philosophical alternative, to acknowledging they're bound by commandments that can only be fulfilled in the land.

There stands a clear contradiction at this pivotal point of history, and all these trends are like psychological bandages used to distract from reality.

The question is rather how do WE assume the responsibility, and burst that bubble before time for making decisions is up?

They tried to turn us into Egyptians, Assyrians, Babylonians, Romans, etc.

We remain. Each time our own attempted to turn us.

We needed Moses to save us from becoming Egyptian. (Joseph) We needed Judas to save us from becoming Christian (Jesus) and we need G-d to save us from being secular.

Personal Tshuva is the answer. And like you said, the choice will be over when that bubble of division bursts.

And we've got ben-Joseph today, and an opportunity to correct exactly that.

Harei, Ya'akov, Yisrael and Yeshurun are one, just different roles.
One is in the religious plain, another national and one is universal.
We cannot just ignore that the left, with it's focus on universal human rights etc is doing Tshuvah on a different level. They just skipped right to level three, and others to level two while some don't move beyond the first one.

We need to be wise enough to recognize the virtue of each, and find how to complement each other. You know like counterpoint, each melody is beautiful on its own and seemingly independent, but eventually all sing the same piece in harmony.

Tshuvah is our responsibility, and it's way beyond personal.

 
Last edited:
No one said that they were.

And.

There's nothing cryptic about you bowing to the state. Kapos did as well. Bolsheviks also.

Guys guys...

Instead of wasting time arguing about those whom the Torah calls 'no-people',
You could make Aliyah and vote in the next elections this spring.

Or before voting, join the ongoing discussions about Parliamentary Monarchy,
then instead of arguing about "bowing to state", You can argue who makes the King's Bracha and who answers Amen.

The Arabs... once relieved of the burden of playing the role the West projects on them, and responsibility for creating something they neither want nor know how, will have less psychological obstacles fitting into a power structure, an environment for which they've been wired and used to in the middle east most naturally.

All I'm saying we might not need another '67 to order things in their place,
just look at all the Arabs gathering around Rabbi Zamir Cohen...

I already have and do. Now I just come back to Canada for pension purposes and to visit.

Our left are somewhat better since they know the danger. The Western leftist Jews are far more philosophical about the danger.

js

Baruch Shuvcha Tzadik!

As regarding leftist Jews in the West, first of all there's a whole different spectrum of Judaism abroad - if in Israel, and I'll exaggerate to make a point, we're merely religious or secular, there they're confused by various new brands (conservative/progressive/reform and what else) of this and that Judaism, that to me seems to survive the "market" only as philosophical alternative, to acknowledging they're bound by commandments that can only be fulfilled in the land.

There stands a clear contradiction at this pivotal point of history, and all these trends are like psychological bandages used to distract from reality.

The question is rather how do WE assume the responsibility, and burst that bubble before time for making decisions is up?

They tried to turn us into Egyptians, Assyrians, Babylonians, Romans, etc.

We remain. Each time our own attempted to turn us.

We needed Moses to save us from becoming Egyptian. (Joseph) We needed Judas to save us from becoming Christian (Jesus) and we need G-d to save us from being secular.

Personal Tshuva is the answer. And like you said, the choice will be over when that bubble of division bursts.

And we've got ben-Joseph today, and an opportunity to correct exactly that.

Harei, Ya'akov, Yisrael and Yeshurun are one, just different roles.
One is in the religious plain, another national and one is universal.
We cannot just ignore that the left, with it's focus on universal human rights etc is doing Tshuvah on a different level. They just skipped right to level three, and others to level two while some don't move beyond the first one.

We need to be wise enough to recognize the virtue of each, and find how to complement each other. You know like counterpoint, each melody is beautiful on its own and seemingly independent, but eventually all sing the same piece in harmony.

Tshuvah is our responsibility, and it's way beyond personal.


It's sure not way beyond personal when one is not doing it... and that's my context.

:thup:

But you follow your context and I shall mine.

imo

Socialist Jews believe in the state as the supreme power. It's the definition of socialism. Then to add to the mix the secular philosophy and it's easy to see why so many turned to socialism. Tshuva will not be found there.

They are far more dangerous than the kapos ever were. But then so was Joseph and Judah knew... just as did Judas.

And Aaron, brother to Moses... set the altar to Ba'al and built a calf.
 
Guys guys...

Instead of wasting time arguing about those whom the Torah calls 'no-people',
You could make Aliyah and vote in the next elections this spring.

Or before voting, join the ongoing discussions about Parliamentary Monarchy,
then instead of arguing about "bowing to state", You can argue who makes the King's Bracha and who answers Amen.

The Arabs... once relieved of the burden of playing the role the West projects on them, and responsibility for creating something they neither want nor know how, will have less psychological obstacles fitting into a power structure, an environment for which they've been wired and used to in the middle east most naturally.

All I'm saying we might not need another '67 to order things in their place,
just look at all the Arabs gathering around Rabbi Zamir Cohen...

I already have and do. Now I just come back to Canada for pension purposes and to visit.

Our left are somewhat better since they know the danger. The Western leftist Jews are far more philosophical about the danger.

js

Baruch Shuvcha Tzadik!

As regarding leftist Jews in the West, first of all there's a whole different spectrum of Judaism abroad - if in Israel, and I'll exaggerate to make a point, we're merely religious or secular, there they're confused by various new brands (conservative/progressive/reform and what else) of this and that Judaism, that to me seems to survive the "market" only as philosophical alternative, to acknowledging they're bound by commandments that can only be fulfilled in the land.

There stands a clear contradiction at this pivotal point of history, and all these trends are like psychological bandages used to distract from reality.

The question is rather how do WE assume the responsibility, and burst that bubble before time for making decisions is up?

They tried to turn us into Egyptians, Assyrians, Babylonians, Romans, etc.

We remain. Each time our own attempted to turn us.

We needed Moses to save us from becoming Egyptian. (Joseph) We needed Judas to save us from becoming Christian (Jesus) and we need G-d to save us from being secular.

Personal Tshuva is the answer. And like you said, the choice will be over when that bubble of division bursts.

And we've got ben-Joseph today, and an opportunity to correct exactly that.

Harei, Ya'akov, Yisrael and Yeshurun are one, just different roles.
One is in the religious plain, another national and one is universal.
We cannot just ignore that the left, with it's focus on universal human rights etc is doing Tshuvah on a different level. They just skipped right to level three, and others to level two while some don't move beyond the first one.

We need to be wise enough to recognize the virtue of each, and find how to complement each other. You know like counterpoint, each melody is beautiful on its own and seemingly independent, but eventually all sing the same piece in harmony.

Tshuvah is our responsibility, and it's way beyond personal.


It's sure not way beyond personal when one is not doing it... and that's my context.

:thup:

But you follow your context and I shall mine.

imo

Socialist Jews believe in the state as the supreme power. It's the definition of socialism. Then to add to the mix the secular philosophy and it's easy to see why so many turned to socialism. Tshuva will not be found there.

They are far more dangerous than the kapos ever were. But then so was Joseph and Judah knew... just as did Judas.

And Aaron, brother to Moses... set the altar to Ba'al and built a calf.


Interesting, that sounds like what my friend says about Zionists who built the state.
They were socialists and secular...and Rabbi Kook ztz"l was the only one who could see through the klipah, while no one knew how to digest that.

Davka socialists and davka secular... and Herzl.

There's truth, potential, we cannot simply ignore that, especially since it's out responsibility to correct those sparks.

But how can we propose a comprehensive vision, without finding and engaging the truth that they resonate with, and without using their language?
 
Last edited:
I already have and do. Now I just come back to Canada for pension purposes and to visit.

Our left are somewhat better since they know the danger. The Western leftist Jews are far more philosophical about the danger.

js

Baruch Shuvcha Tzadik!

As regarding leftist Jews in the West, first of all there's a whole different spectrum of Judaism abroad - if in Israel, and I'll exaggerate to make a point, we're merely religious or secular, there they're confused by various new brands (conservative/progressive/reform and what else) of this and that Judaism, that to me seems to survive the "market" only as philosophical alternative, to acknowledging they're bound by commandments that can only be fulfilled in the land.

There stands a clear contradiction at this pivotal point of history, and all these trends are like psychological bandages used to distract from reality.

The question is rather how do WE assume the responsibility, and burst that bubble before time for making decisions is up?

They tried to turn us into Egyptians, Assyrians, Babylonians, Romans, etc.

We remain. Each time our own attempted to turn us.

We needed Moses to save us from becoming Egyptian. (Joseph) We needed Judas to save us from becoming Christian (Jesus) and we need G-d to save us from being secular.

Personal Tshuva is the answer. And like you said, the choice will be over when that bubble of division bursts.

And we've got ben-Joseph today, and an opportunity to correct exactly that.

Harei, Ya'akov, Yisrael and Yeshurun are one, just different roles.
One is in the religious plain, another national and one is universal.
We cannot just ignore that the left, with it's focus on universal human rights etc is doing Tshuvah on a different level. They just skipped right to level three, and others to level two while some don't move beyond the first one.

We need to be wise enough to recognize the virtue of each, and find how to complement each other. You know like counterpoint, each melody is beautiful on its own and seemingly independent, but eventually all sing the same piece in harmony.

Tshuvah is our responsibility, and it's way beyond personal.


It's sure not way beyond personal when one is not doing it... and that's my context.

:thup:

But you follow your context and I shall mine.

imo

Socialist Jews believe in the state as the supreme power. It's the definition of socialism. Then to add to the mix the secular philosophy and it's easy to see why so many turned to socialism. Tshuva will not be found there.

They are far more dangerous than the kapos ever were. But then so was Joseph and Judah knew... just as did Judas.

And Aaron, brother to Moses... set the altar to Ba'al and built a calf.


Interesting, that sounds like what my friend says about Zionists who built the state.
They were socialists and secular...and Rabbi Kook ztz"l was the only one who could see through the klipah, while no one knew how to digest that.

Davka socialists and davka secular... and Herzl.

There's truth, potential, we cannot simply ignore that, especially since it's out responsibility to correct those sparks.

But how can we propose a comprehensive vision, without finding what's the truth that they already resonate with, and without using their language?


When one repents to the mind of G-d.
Who doesn't have to be.
And if they listen to the mind of G-d.
They need not listen to me (man).
 
I already have and do. Now I just come back to Canada for pension purposes and to visit.

Our left are somewhat better since they know the danger. The Western leftist Jews are far more philosophical about the danger.

js

Baruch Shuvcha Tzadik!

As regarding leftist Jews in the West, first of all there's a whole different spectrum of Judaism abroad - if in Israel, and I'll exaggerate to make a point, we're merely religious or secular, there they're confused by various new brands (conservative/progressive/reform and what else) of this and that Judaism, that to me seems to survive the "market" only as philosophical alternative, to acknowledging they're bound by commandments that can only be fulfilled in the land.

There stands a clear contradiction at this pivotal point of history, and all these trends are like psychological bandages used to distract from reality.

The question is rather how do WE assume the responsibility, and burst that bubble before time for making decisions is up?

They tried to turn us into Egyptians, Assyrians, Babylonians, Romans, etc.

We remain. Each time our own attempted to turn us.

We needed Moses to save us from becoming Egyptian. (Joseph) We needed Judas to save us from becoming Christian (Jesus) and we need G-d to save us from being secular.

Personal Tshuva is the answer. And like you said, the choice will be over when that bubble of division bursts.

And we've got ben-Joseph today, and an opportunity to correct exactly that.

Harei, Ya'akov, Yisrael and Yeshurun are one, just different roles.
One is in the religious plain, another national and one is universal.
We cannot just ignore that the left, with it's focus on universal human rights etc is doing Tshuvah on a different level. They just skipped right to level three, and others to level two while some don't move beyond the first one.

We need to be wise enough to recognize the virtue of each, and find how to complement each other. You know like counterpoint, each melody is beautiful on its own and seemingly independent, but eventually all sing the same piece in harmony.

Tshuvah is our responsibility, and it's way beyond personal.


It's sure not way beyond personal when one is not doing it... and that's my context.

:thup:

But you follow your context and I shall mine.

imo

Socialist Jews believe in the state as the supreme power. It's the definition of socialism. Then to add to the mix the secular philosophy and it's easy to see why so many turned to socialism. Tshuva will not be found there.

They are far more dangerous than the kapos ever were. But then so was Joseph and Judah knew... just as did Judas.

And Aaron, brother to Moses... set the altar to Ba'al and built a calf.


Interesting, that sounds like what my friend says about Zionists who built the state.
They were socialists and secular...and Rabbi Kook ztz"l was the only one who could see through the klipah, while no one knew how to digest that.

Davka socialists and davka secular... and Herzl.

There's truth, potential, we cannot simply ignore that, especially since it's out responsibility to correct those sparks.

But how can we propose a comprehensive vision, without finding and engaging the truth that they resonate with, and without using their language?


This is why the country is called "Israel" and not "Judah". Why it uses a star instead of מְנוֹרָה.
 
Baruch Shuvcha Tzadik!

As regarding leftist Jews in the West, first of all there's a whole different spectrum of Judaism abroad - if in Israel, and I'll exaggerate to make a point, we're merely religious or secular, there they're confused by various new brands (conservative/progressive/reform and what else) of this and that Judaism, that to me seems to survive the "market" only as philosophical alternative, to acknowledging they're bound by commandments that can only be fulfilled in the land.

There stands a clear contradiction at this pivotal point of history, and all these trends are like psychological bandages used to distract from reality.

The question is rather how do WE assume the responsibility, and burst that bubble before time for making decisions is up?

They tried to turn us into Egyptians, Assyrians, Babylonians, Romans, etc.

We remain. Each time our own attempted to turn us.

We needed Moses to save us from becoming Egyptian. (Joseph) We needed Judas to save us from becoming Christian (Jesus) and we need G-d to save us from being secular.

Personal Tshuva is the answer. And like you said, the choice will be over when that bubble of division bursts.

And we've got ben-Joseph today, and an opportunity to correct exactly that.

Harei, Ya'akov, Yisrael and Yeshurun are one, just different roles.
One is in the religious plain, another national and one is universal.
We cannot just ignore that the left, with it's focus on universal human rights etc is doing Tshuvah on a different level. They just skipped right to level three, and others to level two while some don't move beyond the first one.

We need to be wise enough to recognize the virtue of each, and find how to complement each other. You know like counterpoint, each melody is beautiful on its own and seemingly independent, but eventually all sing the same piece in harmony.

Tshuvah is our responsibility, and it's way beyond personal.


It's sure not way beyond personal when one is not doing it... and that's my context.

:thup:

But you follow your context and I shall mine.

imo

Socialist Jews believe in the state as the supreme power. It's the definition of socialism. Then to add to the mix the secular philosophy and it's easy to see why so many turned to socialism. Tshuva will not be found there.

They are far more dangerous than the kapos ever were. But then so was Joseph and Judah knew... just as did Judas.

And Aaron, brother to Moses... set the altar to Ba'al and built a calf.


Interesting, that sounds like what my friend says about Zionists who built the state.
They were socialists and secular...and Rabbi Kook ztz"l was the only one who could see through the klipah, while no one knew how to digest that.

Davka socialists and davka secular... and Herzl.

There's truth, potential, we cannot simply ignore that, especially since it's out responsibility to correct those sparks.

But how can we propose a comprehensive vision, without finding what's the truth that they already resonate with, and without using their language?


When one repents to the mind of G-d.
Who doesn't have to be.
And if they listen to the mind of G-d.
They need not listen to me (man).


100%

How does the Torah criticize Metushelah, and if I'm not wrong also Noah?

In other words how this doesn't turn into "I'll just do my job, build me an ark and good luck to all"? Or into another "You won't move me from here until Mashiah arrives with a limousine and fireworks at my door"?

Harei there's a collective reality to sin and mitzvah, it influences the Jewish soul in its entirety What good is my Tshuvah if it's only for me?
 
They tried to turn us into Egyptians, Assyrians, Babylonians, Romans, etc.

We remain. Each time our own attempted to turn us.

We needed Moses to save us from becoming Egyptian. (Joseph) We needed Judas to save us from becoming Christian (Jesus) and we need G-d to save us from being secular.

Personal Tshuva is the answer. And like you said, the choice will be over when that bubble of division bursts.

And we've got ben-Joseph today, and an opportunity to correct exactly that.

Harei, Ya'akov, Yisrael and Yeshurun are one, just different roles.
One is in the religious plain, another national and one is universal.
We cannot just ignore that the left, with it's focus on universal human rights etc is doing Tshuvah on a different level. They just skipped right to level three, and others to level two while some don't move beyond the first one.

We need to be wise enough to recognize the virtue of each, and find how to complement each other. You know like counterpoint, each melody is beautiful on its own and seemingly independent, but eventually all sing the same piece in harmony.

Tshuvah is our responsibility, and it's way beyond personal.


It's sure not way beyond personal when one is not doing it... and that's my context.

:thup:

But you follow your context and I shall mine.

imo

Socialist Jews believe in the state as the supreme power. It's the definition of socialism. Then to add to the mix the secular philosophy and it's easy to see why so many turned to socialism. Tshuva will not be found there.

They are far more dangerous than the kapos ever were. But then so was Joseph and Judah knew... just as did Judas.

And Aaron, brother to Moses... set the altar to Ba'al and built a calf.


Interesting, that sounds like what my friend says about Zionists who built the state.
They were socialists and secular...and Rabbi Kook ztz"l was the only one who could see through the klipah, while no one knew how to digest that.

Davka socialists and davka secular... and Herzl.

There's truth, potential, we cannot simply ignore that, especially since it's out responsibility to correct those sparks.

But how can we propose a comprehensive vision, without finding what's the truth that they already resonate with, and without using their language?


When one repents to the mind of G-d.
Who doesn't have to be.
And if they listen to the mind of G-d.
They need not listen to me (man).


100%

How does the Torah criticize Metushelah, and if I'm not wrong also Noah?

In other words how this doesn't turn into "I'll just do my job, build me an ark and good luck to all"?. Or into another "You won't move me until Mashiah arrives with a limousine at my door with fireworks"?

Harei there's a collective reality to sin and mitzvah, it influences the Jewish soul in its entirety What good is my Tshuvah if it's only for me?


imo

You're looking at it ass backwards. But then Herzl had the question bass ackwards too...

First one has to believe in G-d. Socialists believe G-d is the state.
 
And we've got ben-Joseph today, and an opportunity to correct exactly that.

Harei, Ya'akov, Yisrael and Yeshurun are one, just different roles.
One is in the religious plain, another national and one is universal.
We cannot just ignore that the left, with it's focus on universal human rights etc is doing Tshuvah on a different level. They just skipped right to level three, and others to level two while some don't move beyond the first one.

We need to be wise enough to recognize the virtue of each, and find how to complement each other. You know like counterpoint, each melody is beautiful on its own and seemingly independent, but eventually all sing the same piece in harmony.

Tshuvah is our responsibility, and it's way beyond personal.


It's sure not way beyond personal when one is not doing it... and that's my context.

:thup:

But you follow your context and I shall mine.

imo

Socialist Jews believe in the state as the supreme power. It's the definition of socialism. Then to add to the mix the secular philosophy and it's easy to see why so many turned to socialism. Tshuva will not be found there.

They are far more dangerous than the kapos ever were. But then so was Joseph and Judah knew... just as did Judas.

And Aaron, brother to Moses... set the altar to Ba'al and built a calf.


Interesting, that sounds like what my friend says about Zionists who built the state.
They were socialists and secular...and Rabbi Kook ztz"l was the only one who could see through the klipah, while no one knew how to digest that.

Davka socialists and davka secular... and Herzl.

There's truth, potential, we cannot simply ignore that, especially since it's out responsibility to correct those sparks.

But how can we propose a comprehensive vision, without finding what's the truth that they already resonate with, and without using their language?


When one repents to the mind of G-d.
Who doesn't have to be.
And if they listen to the mind of G-d.
They need not listen to me (man).


100%

How does the Torah criticize Metushelah, and if I'm not wrong also Noah?

In other words how this doesn't turn into "I'll just do my job, build me an ark and good luck to all"?. Or into another "You won't move me until Mashiah arrives with a limousine at my door with fireworks"?

Harei there's a collective reality to sin and mitzvah, it influences the Jewish soul in its entirety What good is my Tshuvah if it's only for me?


imo

You're looking at it ass backwards. But then Herzl had the question bass ackwards too...

First one has to believe in G-d. Socialists believe G-d is the state.

And Herzl said "today in Basel I've established the Jewish state, no one may believe that now, but in 50 years no one will be able to ignore", and 51 years later we became independent.

What should be the question? Please elaborate.
 
It's sure not way beyond personal when one is not doing it... and that's my context.

:thup:

But you follow your context and I shall mine.

imo

Socialist Jews believe in the state as the supreme power. It's the definition of socialism. Then to add to the mix the secular philosophy and it's easy to see why so many turned to socialism. Tshuva will not be found there.

They are far more dangerous than the kapos ever were. But then so was Joseph and Judah knew... just as did Judas.

And Aaron, brother to Moses... set the altar to Ba'al and built a calf.

Interesting, that sounds like what my friend says about Zionists who built the state.
They were socialists and secular...and Rabbi Kook ztz"l was the only one who could see through the klipah, while no one knew how to digest that.

Davka socialists and davka secular... and Herzl.

There's truth, potential, we cannot simply ignore that, especially since it's out responsibility to correct those sparks.

But how can we propose a comprehensive vision, without finding what's the truth that they already resonate with, and without using their language?

When one repents to the mind of G-d.
Who doesn't have to be.
And if they listen to the mind of G-d.
They need not listen to me (man).

100%

How does the Torah criticize Metushelah, and if I'm not wrong also Noah?

In other words how this doesn't turn into "I'll just do my job, build me an ark and good luck to all"?. Or into another "You won't move me until Mashiah arrives with a limousine at my door with fireworks"?

Harei there's a collective reality to sin and mitzvah, it influences the Jewish soul in its entirety What good is my Tshuvah if it's only for me?

imo

You're looking at it ass backwards. But then Herzl had the question bass ackwards too...

First one has to believe in G-d. Socialists believe G-d is the state.
And Herzl said "today in Basel I've established the Jewish state, no one may believe that now, but in 50 years no one will be able to ignore", and 51 years later we became independent.

What should be the question? Please elaborate.

There is no question. That's the thing. That's how we were emancipated by Marx with the Hegelian synthesis set to a "Jewish Question."

There never was a Jewish question for the Jews. The Torah makes the pattern clear.
 
They speak Arabic, like in 21 other countries. They wear the keffiya and hijab, like in 21 other countries. They eat hummus and shwarma, like in 21 other countries. They celebrate Mohammed's birthday and Abraham's near sacrifice of his son, like in 21 other countries.


In Israel, they speak Hebrew. It's the only country with this national language. In Israel, they wear the kippa and kova temble, like in no other country. In Israel, they eat gefilte fish, kugel, kishke, and cholent, like in no other country. In Israel, the national holidays are Yom Kippur, Passover and Hanukkah. These are no other country's national holidays.

Why does Tinmore want to destroy the only Jewish state in the world to set up a 22nd jihadist state? Is this what the world really needs?
Why do you need to deny Palestinians their identity in order to support Jewish rights?
Deny their identity as terrorists? Who is doing that exactly?
 
be able to ignore", and 51 years later we became independent.

What should be the question? Please elaborate.

Who hardened Pharoah's heart so that he did not have independent will on choice?

^This is not a 'why' question.
 
Interesting, that sounds like what my friend says about Zionists who built the state.
They were socialists and secular...and Rabbi Kook ztz"l was the only one who could see through the klipah, while no one knew how to digest that.

Davka socialists and davka secular... and Herzl.

There's truth, potential, we cannot simply ignore that, especially since it's out responsibility to correct those sparks.

But how can we propose a comprehensive vision, without finding what's the truth that they already resonate with, and without using their language?

When one repents to the mind of G-d.
Who doesn't have to be.
And if they listen to the mind of G-d.
They need not listen to me (man).

100%

How does the Torah criticize Metushelah, and if I'm not wrong also Noah?

In other words how this doesn't turn into "I'll just do my job, build me an ark and good luck to all"?. Or into another "You won't move me until Mashiah arrives with a limousine at my door with fireworks"?

Harei there's a collective reality to sin and mitzvah, it influences the Jewish soul in its entirety What good is my Tshuvah if it's only for me?

imo

You're looking at it ass backwards. But then Herzl had the question bass ackwards too...

First one has to believe in G-d. Socialists believe G-d is the state.
And Herzl said "today in Basel I've established the Jewish state, no one may believe that now, but in 50 years no one will be able to ignore", and 51 years later we became independent.

What should be the question? Please elaborate.

There is no question. That's the thing. That's how we were emancipated by Marx with the Hegelian synthesis set to a "Jewish Question."

There never was a Jewish question for the Jews. The Torah makes the pattern clear.

I'm sorry, but I'm losing Your point.
Hashem can turn any our deviation to fulfill his plan.

The question, why should we follow the known patterns, when freedom of choice is still available? Avraham Avinu A"H had a weakness in the Grar region...and what do we have today?

An opportunity, and the choice to use it or not is still in our hands.
 
Indigent to Arabia....There has never been a Palestinian country.

Both these statements are true. Neither statement erases the Arab Palestinians self-identification or right to self-determination in that territory. New States come into being all the time. While there are obstacles to Palestine fully becoming a state, the fact that there hasn't been one in the past is not an obstacle to it becoming one in the future.

1) I believe the word is indigenous. Doesn't indigent mean poor?

2) I also agree that there could be a fully independent "New Palestine" in the future, even though Palestine has never been an independent country in the past. But not at the expense of Israel! There can only be one if they agree, sincerely, to share the Land peacefully. (I've read New Palestine is the name that Jared Kushner wants to call the West Bank.)

Lately, I've been reading alot about Napoleon. During his time, Belgium wasn't really independent yet, but there was a country called Westphalia. Today there's no Westphalia but there is a Belgium. And South Sudan became a country only a couple of years ago. In other words, countries come and go all the time.

There's an ongoing question about whether Belgium is a country. Meant unkindly more often than not.

Most bad jokes in Europe are about Belgians. And indeed it is a strange place, divided as it is by language.

Nevertheless, the region has seen more bloodshed than any human could endure.

Westphalia is now a federal state.
 

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