Are Blacks Americans too?

[Lonestar_logic]

I have the130 page Master's Thesis here right in front of me. Entitled:

"A PEOPLE OF COLOR":​

A STUDY OF RACE AND RACIAL IDENTIFICATION IN​

NEW HAMPSHIRE, 1750-1825​

I have studied Cheswell long long before Barton or Beck ever even heard of him. Well over 15 years ago. Barton's document he holds up of Cheswell was once in my hands. Does that give you an information?​

You can also see the PBS Frontline special on the Blurred Racial Lines of Famous Families:


Frontline: Famous Families
[

Cheswell was African-American and nothing you provided states otherwise.

Yes, he was African American, but he was white as his fellow white citizens. My link above states that, as does all my historical background on him, which is voluminous, as well as this other fact: In the 1790 Census, he was counted as: Free White.

Keep trying, little dowggies.

You stated Lemuel was counted as a free white in 1790 now your saying Chesswell was. Make up your mind.

Oh and what the fuck is a dowggie?

 

[Samson]

Reading comprehension.....is a bitch huh.

I wouldn't know.

New Orleans is in the USA, but New Orleans is not THE USA.

It was one of the very few places sited in the article as home to any black slaveholders.

Once again, it would probably be a good idea to work on your critical thinking skills before faulting anyone else.

Yes New Orleans is in the USA. But out of the 4.5 million blacks in the ENTIRE U.S., 3000 of them in ONE city owned slaves. And you didn't read the article. It spoke of black slave owners in South Carolina, North Carolina and Virginia as well as the 3000 out of 10,689 blacks that lived in New Orleans.

You really should work on your reading comprehension skills.

The TOTAL number of black slave holders in the USA, based on your article, was a little more than 3000. This included the ONE DATA POINT of New Orleans, and a few guys in The Carloina's and VA.

Extrapolating data from one example is a common tool for manipulating the ignorant.

If the author had included the number of black slaveholders in Richmond, Atlanta, Vicksburg, Mobile, Charleston, and Memphis then he may have had a convincing arguement.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

I wouldn't know.

New Orleans is in the USA, but New Orleans is not THE USA.

It was one of the very few places sited in the article as home to any black slaveholders.

Once again, it would probably be a good idea to work on your critical thinking skills before faulting anyone else.

Yes New Orleans is in the USA. But out of the 4.5 million blacks in the ENTIRE U.S., 3000 of them in ONE city owned slaves. And you didn't read the article. It spoke of black slave owners in South Carolina, North Carolina and Virginia as well as the 3000 out of 10,689 blacks that lived in New Orleans.

You really should work on your reading comprehension skills.

The TOTAL number of black slave holders in the USA, based on your article, was a little more than 3000. This included the ONE DATA POINT of New Orleans, and a few guys in The Carloina's and VA.

Extrapolating data from one example is a common tool for manipulating the ignorant.

If the author had included the number of black slaveholders in Richmond, Atlanta, Vicksburg, Mobile, Charleston, and Memphis then he may have had a convincing arguement.

No that's not what the article stated.

"The country's leading African American historian, Duke University professor John Hope Franklin, records that in New Orleans over 3,000 free Negroes owned slaves, or 28 percent of the free Negroes in that city"

I don't know how much more plain that could be.

Are you really as stupid as you seem to be?

 

[paperview]

Cheswell was African-American and nothing you provided states otherwise.

Yes, he was African American, but he was white as his fellow white citizens. My link above states that, as does all my historical background on him, which is voluminous, as well as this other fact: In the 1790 Census, he was counted as: Free White.

Keep trying, little dowggies.

You stated Lemuel was counted as a free white in 1790 now your saying Chesswell was. Make up your mind.

Oh and what the fuck is a dowggie?

Both were. (wild concept, huh?)

From the Master Thesis of Cheswill, and available from Public Records in NH:

The town census records of 1790, 1800, and 1810 list Wentworth Cheswill as a "Free white male."

You can look up Lemuel yourself and find out he also was listed as Free White Male. You can also look at his picture.

 

[Samson]

No I read that.

But, I don't believe everything I read, especially when it mysteriously omits the actual number in favor of the author's opinion that the number is "large."

According to your source



Your source only identified a little over 3,000 blacks owned slaves. The proportion of black slave owners is 3 of every 4,500 blacks in the USA during 1860. Um..... that's less than 0.1%

He then says



Which means 90% of blacks in the South were slaves in 1860.

90% is much more than 0.1% So I conclude that the fact that some blacks owned blacks is insignificant to the fact that most blacks were slaves.


And I agree with Robert M. Grooms that the proportion of American whites that owned slaves was also low at 1.4%

I see numbNut Logic is still using Robert Grooms as a source.

Grooms is a known revisionist. Note the article that derived from:

Barnes Review. Look them up. They are holocaust deniers and high-torch revisionists.
Grooms plays fast and loose with his numbers and has been debunked repeatedly.

Anyone who uses Grooms as a source should be laughed at.

Yes and he cited these sources.

1. The American Negro: Old World Background and New World Experience, Raymond Logan and Irving Cohen New York: Houghton and Mifflin, 1970), p.72.

2. Black Masters: A Free Family of Color in the Old South, Michael P. Johnson and James L. Roak New York: Norton, 1984), p.64.

3. The Forgotten People: Cane River's Creoles of Color, Gary Mills (Baton Rouge, 1977); Black Masters, p.128.

4. Male inheritance expectations in the United States in 1870, 1850-1870, Lee Soltow (New Haven, 1975), p.85.
5. Black Masters, Appendix, Table 7; p.280.

6. Black Masters, p. 62.

7. Information on the Ellison family was obtained from Black Masters; the number of slaves they owned was gained from U.S. Census Reports.

8. In 1860 South Carolina had only 21 gin makers; Ellison, his three sons and a grandson account for five of the total.

9. Neither Black Nor White: Slavery and Race Relations in Brazil and the United States, Carl N. Degler (New York, Macmillan, 1971), p.39;
Negro Slavery in Louisiana, Joe Gray Taylor (Baton Rouge, 1963), pp. 4041.

10. Reconstruction: America's Unfinished Revolution, 1863-1877, Eric Foner (New York; Harper & Row, 1988), p. 47; pp. 353-355.

ps.
You're being laughed at.

No, Payperview is not being "laughed at."

Nor should you be laughed at. You are an excellent example of someone who has been duped, but you are not alone: There are entire message boards devoted to the ignorant rambings of individuals that create "facts," for those who want to believe them. Grroms is simply one more "spin doctor," who, for example, takes data from One City in the USA, and applies it to the entire nation........I imagine During February I could ask people in Chicago if they thought the wheather was too cold, and then based on their response conclude that the entire USA thought the weather was too cold!

 

[paperview]

1790 Census: Heads of families at the second ... - Google Books

Lemuel Haynes: FREE WHITE MALE

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Yes, he was African American, but he was white as his fellow white citizens. My link above states that, as does all my historical background on him, which is voluminous, as well as this other fact: In the 1790 Census, he was counted as: Free White.

Keep trying, little dowggies.

You stated Lemuel was counted as a free white in 1790 now your saying Chesswell was. Make up your mind.

Oh and what the fuck is a dowggie?

Both were. (wild concept, huh?)

From the Master Thesis of Cheswill, and available from Public Records in NH:

The town census records of 1790, 1800, and 1810 list Wentworth Cheswill as a "Free white male."

You can look up Lemuel yourself and find out he also was listed as Free White Male. You can also look at his picture.

No I'm done with your wild goose chases because they've yet to prove anything. Fact is the men I mentioned were in fact African-American and nothing you have provided proves otherwise.

 

[paperview]

1790 Census: Heads of families at the second ... - Google Books

Lemuel Haynes: FREE WHITE MALE

Wentworth Cheswell: FREE WHITE MALE

Glenn Beck won't tell you that part, LittleLogic.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

I see numbNut Logic is still using Robert Grooms as a source.

Grooms is a known revisionist. Note the article that derived from:

Barnes Review. Look them up. They are holocaust deniers and high-torch revisionists.
Grooms plays fast and loose with his numbers and has been debunked repeatedly.

Anyone who uses Grooms as a source should be laughed at.

Yes and he cited these sources.

1. The American Negro: Old World Background and New World Experience, Raymond Logan and Irving Cohen New York: Houghton and Mifflin, 1970), p.72.

2. Black Masters: A Free Family of Color in the Old South, Michael P. Johnson and James L. Roak New York: Norton, 1984), p.64.

3. The Forgotten People: Cane River's Creoles of Color, Gary Mills (Baton Rouge, 1977); Black Masters, p.128.

4. Male inheritance expectations in the United States in 1870, 1850-1870, Lee Soltow (New Haven, 1975), p.85.
5. Black Masters, Appendix, Table 7; p.280.

6. Black Masters, p. 62.

7. Information on the Ellison family was obtained from Black Masters; the number of slaves they owned was gained from U.S. Census Reports.

8. In 1860 South Carolina had only 21 gin makers; Ellison, his three sons and a grandson account for five of the total.

9. Neither Black Nor White: Slavery and Race Relations in Brazil and the United States, Carl N. Degler (New York, Macmillan, 1971), p.39;
Negro Slavery in Louisiana, Joe Gray Taylor (Baton Rouge, 1963), pp. 4041.

10. Reconstruction: America's Unfinished Revolution, 1863-1877, Eric Foner (New York; Harper & Row, 1988), p. 47; pp. 353-355.

ps.
You're being laughed at.

No, Payperview is not being "laughed at."

Nor should you be laughed at. You are an excellent example of someone who has been duped, but you are not alone: There are entire message boards devoted to the ignorant rambings of individuals that create "facts," for those who want to believe them. Grroms is simply one more "spin doctor," who, for example, takes data from One City in the USA, and applies it to the entire nation........I imagine During February I could ask people in Chicago if they thought the wheather was too cold, and then based on their response conclude that the entire USA thought the weather was too cold!

I'm laughing at the goofy fuck. So I guess paperview is being laughed at.

I haven't been duped. I stated these men were African American and I'm right.

I stated that there were indeed blacks that owned slaves and again I am right. Now you can disagree with the numbers but you can't dismiss historical facts.

 

[paperview]

This is a FACT that cannot be disputed LL: The town census records of 1790, 1800, and 1810 list Wentworth Cheswill as a "Free white male."


And a little from the Master Thesis on Cheswell by Eric Tuveson:

"Light skin color, wealth, education, and familiarity within his community, helped prompt Wentworth Cheswill's individual success and caused his contemporaries to identify him as "white". Only in hindsight, after notions of race became more clearly defined in the United States, did politicians and scholars identify Cheswill as "black" and refer to him as "remarkable".

[Only three years after his death was he referred to as "yellow" in a debate on the Missouri Compromise]
But how black was the "yellow man" Wentworth Cheswill? And was he truly that exceptional? What about the lives of other people of color? What roles did they play in late eighteenth and early nineteenth century New Hampshire society? And how did their existence compare to that of Wentworth Cheswill? This thesis analyzes notions of color and concepts of race: first by examining the life and family of Wentworth Cheswill of Newmarket, New Hampshire; and second, by contrasting the experiences of Exeter, New Hampshire's black population with those of Cheswill.

...Wentworth Cheswill's life and experiences have been described more than once as those of an "exceptional black man" in the years since his death. Yet the fact that Senator David Morril, William Cooper Nell, and Stanley Kaplan and Emma Nogrady Kaplan chose to describe Cheswill in this manner does not necessarily mean that he was perceived as such in his own time. At a politically charged moment in time, Cheswill, the "yellow man" of Newmarket, New Hampshire, provided Senator Morril with a means to prove that people of color could 'make it' in the United States.

Nell, whose book on black patriots in the Revolution was published six years before the outbreak of the Civil War, similarly had a political message. He attacked the injustice of racial slavery by demonstrating that black Americans participated in and held true to the ideals of the Revolution. Nell, like Morril, found Cheswill a useful example. The fact that two modern scholars, Kaplan and Kaplan, classified Wentworth Cheswill as a "black American" is likely a condition of present-day racial conceptions. As Carl Degler noted in an often contended but frequently correct statement: "There are only two qualities in the United States racial pattern: white and black. A person is one or the other; there is no intermediate position."

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=10&ved=0CFwQxQEwCQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fdocs.google.com%2Fviewer%3Fa%3Dv%26q%3Dcache%3AT68lW2MhgIwJ%3Awww.nhinsider.com%2Fblogger-files%2FCheswell_Thesis.doc%2Bcheswell%2B1790%2Bcensus%2Brockingham%2Bcounty%2Bnh%26hl%3Den%26gl%3Dus%26pid%3Dbl%26srcid%3DADGEESjkhZJjIxxTjjglFshUncqG3nw5jkljx7MZjovWT7rtQZNXwmdPqJYnmk7X7kUEyHNSJbEluqDvb5h8zUzxgKMtTUItJPm8mEJEHmlIe3pwRQEcJ-riVMceJ96qeV-7qfPNV0c7%26sig%3DAHIEtbSBr5gLNlZepl3L8hKUn23obFjejA&rct=j&q=cheswell%201790%20census%20rockingham%20county%20nh&ei=qWNRTaOsGoLGlQe1wvz0Cg&usg=AFQjCNGvxoJ2wYpAPm9PYXyVI_UFUay4Zg&cad=rja

 

[Lonestar_logic]

1790 Census: Heads of families at the second ... - Google Books

Lemuel Haynes: FREE WHITE MALE

Wentworth Cheswell: FREE WHITE MALE

Glenn Beck won't tell you that part, LittleLogic.

No mention of Lemuel Haynes or Wentworth Chesswell in the link you provided.


Go figure.

 

[Samson]

Yes New Orleans is in the USA. But out of the 4.5 million blacks in the ENTIRE U.S., 3000 of them in ONE city owned slaves. And you didn't read the article. It spoke of black slave owners in South Carolina, North Carolina and Virginia as well as the 3000 out of 10,689 blacks that lived in New Orleans.

You really should work on your reading comprehension skills.

The TOTAL number of black slave holders in the USA, based on your article, was a little more than 3000. This included the ONE DATA POINT of New Orleans, and a few guys in The Carloina's and VA.

Extrapolating data from one example is a common tool for manipulating the ignorant.

If the author had included the number of black slaveholders in Richmond, Atlanta, Vicksburg, Mobile, Charleston, and Memphis then he may have had a convincing arguement.

No that's not what the article stated.

"The country's leading African American historian, Duke University professor John Hope Franklin, records that in New Orleans over 3,000 free Negroes owned slaves, or 28 percent of the free Negroes in that city"

I don't know how much more plain that could be.

Are you really as stupid as you seem to be?

From you, the question is something of a compliment.

Death Disease and Mourning

1 in 15 during the summer of 1853. Over 12,000 people died of yellow fever in New Orleans that year

1/15 = 6.7%

6.7 % of the populaltion of the USA probably died of yellow fever in 1853

The total population of New Orleans in 1860 was 168,675. If 10,689 were black, then

6.3% of the population of New Orleans was black.



Only White People died of Yellow Fever in the USA.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Free North Carolina: George Washington Statue Hidden In Box By NAACP

Yes. Blacks are Americans too. Many have died for this country defending our liberty and freedom, even when they and their families were denied true liberty and freedom by law and by bigotry.
Isn't it ironic that the slave trade brought many African slaves to America before the great periods of immigration, and that many families of former slaves can trace their American Heritage back to the late 17th and early 18th centuries; fewwr white families can do the same. Northern European migration to the States in mass began much later; one might argue former slave families today are more American than the bigots who ask if African-Americans are truly American.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

This is a FACT that cannot be disputed LL: The town census records of 1790, 1800, and 1810 list Wentworth Cheswill as a "Free white male."


And a little from the Master Thesis on Cheswell by Eric Tuveson:

"Light skin color, wealth, education, and familiarity within his community, helped prompt Wentworth Cheswill's individual success and caused his contemporaries to identify him as "white". Only in hindsight, after notions of race became more clearly defined in the United States, did politicians and scholars identify Cheswill as "black" and refer to him as "remarkable".

[Only three years after his death was he referred to as "yellow" in a debate on the Missouri Compromise]
But how black was the "yellow man" Wentworth Cheswill? And was he truly that exceptional? What about the lives of other people of color? What roles did they play in late eighteenth and early nineteenth century New Hampshire society? And how did their existence compare to that of Wentworth Cheswill? This thesis analyzes notions of color and concepts of race: first by examining the life and family of Wentworth Cheswill of Newmarket, New Hampshire; and second, by contrasting the experiences of Exeter, New Hampshire's black population with those of Cheswill.

...Wentworth Cheswill's life and experiences have been described more than once as those of an "exceptional black man" in the years since his death. Yet the fact that Senator David Morril, William Cooper Nell, and Stanley Kaplan and Emma Nogrady Kaplan chose to describe Cheswill in this manner does not necessarily mean that he was perceived as such in his own time. At a politically charged moment in time, Cheswill, the "yellow man" of Newmarket, New Hampshire, provided Senator Morril with a means to prove that people of color could 'make it' in the United States.

Nell, whose book on black patriots in the Revolution was published six years before the outbreak of the Civil War, similarly had a political message. He attacked the injustice of racial slavery by demonstrating that black Americans participated in and held true to the ideals of the Revolution. Nell, like Morril, found Cheswill a useful example. The fact that two modern scholars, Kaplan and Kaplan, classified Wentworth Cheswill as a "black American" is likely a condition of present-day racial conceptions. As Carl Degler noted in an often contended but frequently correct statement: "There are only two qualities in the United States racial pattern: white and black. A person is one or the other; there is no intermediate position."

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=10&ved=0CFwQxQEwCQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fdocs.google.com%2Fviewer%3Fa%3Dv%26q%3Dcache%3AT68lW2MhgIwJ%3Awww.nhinsider.com%2Fblogger-files%2FCheswell_Thesis.doc%2Bcheswell%2B1790%2Bcensus%2Brockingham%2Bcounty%2Bnh%26hl%3Den%26gl%3Dus%26pid%3Dbl%26srcid%3DADGEESjkhZJjIxxTjjglFshUncqG3nw5jkljx7MZjovWT7rtQZNXwmdPqJYnmk7X7kUEyHNSJbEluqDvb5h8zUzxgKMtTUItJPm8mEJEHmlIe3pwRQEcJ-riVMceJ96qeV-7qfPNV0c7%26sig%3DAHIEtbSBr5gLNlZepl3L8hKUn23obFjejA&rct=j&q=cheswell%201790%20census%20rockingham%20county%20nh&ei=qWNRTaOsGoLGlQe1wvz0Cg&usg=AFQjCNGvxoJ2wYpAPm9PYXyVI_UFUay4Zg&cad=rja

Fact is he was African American. Which is what I've been saying all along.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

The TOTAL number of black slave holders in the USA, based on your article, was a little more than 3000. This included the ONE DATA POINT of New Orleans, and a few guys in The Carloina's and VA.

Extrapolating data from one example is a common tool for manipulating the ignorant.

If the author had included the number of black slaveholders in Richmond, Atlanta, Vicksburg, Mobile, Charleston, and Memphis then he may have had a convincing arguement.

No that's not what the article stated.

"The country's leading African American historian, Duke University professor John Hope Franklin, records that in New Orleans over 3,000 free Negroes owned slaves, or 28 percent of the free Negroes in that city"

I don't know how much more plain that could be.

Are you really as stupid as you seem to be?

From you, the question is something of a compliment.

Death Disease and Mourning

1 in 15 during the summer of 1853. Over 12,000 people died of yellow fever in New Orleans that year

1/15 = 6.7%

6.7 % of the populaltion of the USA probably died of yellow fever in 1853

The total population of New Orleans in 1860 was 168,675. If 10,689 were black, then

6.3% of the population of New Orleans was black.



Only White People died of Yellow Fever in the USA.

Nice deflection.


Your concession is duly noted.

 

[Samson]

No that's not what the article stated.

"The country's leading African American historian, Duke University professor John Hope Franklin, records that in New Orleans over 3,000 free Negroes owned slaves, or 28 percent of the free Negroes in that city"

I don't know how much more plain that could be.

Are you really as stupid as you seem to be?

From you, the question is something of a compliment.

Death Disease and Mourning

1 in 15 during the summer of 1853. Over 12,000 people died of yellow fever in New Orleans that year

1/15 = 6.7%

6.7 % of the populaltion of the USA probably died of yellow fever in 1853

The total population of New Orleans in 1860 was 168,675. If 10,689 were black, then

6.3% of the population of New Orleans was black.



Only White People died of Yellow Fever in the USA.

Nice deflection.


Your concession is duly noted.

Thanks for confirming illogical blithering is the only reasoning of which you're capable.


By 1860 New Orleans was home to over 10000 French-born residents

That's the same proportion of Blacks!!! 6.3% !!!


All the blacks in New Orleans in 1860 were born in France.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

From you, the question is something of a compliment.

Death Disease and Mourning


1/15 = 6.7%

6.7 % of the populaltion of the USA probably died of yellow fever in 1853

The total population of New Orleans in 1860 was 168,675. If 10,689 were black, then

6.3% of the population of New Orleans was black.



Only White People died of Yellow Fever in the USA.

Nice deflection.


Your concession is duly noted.

Thanks for confirming illogical blithering is the only reasoning of which you're capable.


By 1860 New Orleans was home to over 10000 French-born residents

That's the same proportion of Blacks!!! 6.3% !!!


All the blacks in New Orleans in 1860 were born in France.

Illogical? We were discussing slavery and you bring up diseases. Talk about illogical.

Apparently honesty as well as reading comprehension is foreign to you. You own link contradicts your claim that "All the blacks in New Orleans in 1860 were born in France"

In 1809 and 1810 over 10,000 French Saint-Domingue refugees came to New Orleans, doubling the city's population. These immigrants originally fled war-torn Saint-Domingue in 1803, as black slaves emerged victorious in the Haitian Revolution, the only successful long-term slave revolt in the Americas. The refugees first settled in nearby Cuba but left six years later when Spanish authorities expelled them in retaliation for Napoleon's invasion of Spain. This group was made up of about equal numbers of whites, free blacks, and slaves.

Black refugees to Louisiana brought with them elements of African and Haitian culture in the form of voodoo/hoodoo practices, shotgun house architecture, and the language, oral traditions, and dance steps of Mardi Gras Indian rites.

March 13, 1855
This is an advertisement for the sale of one hundred seventy-eight slaves from the Waverly and Meridith Plantations.

By 1850 New Orleans was the South's largest slave-trading center. At that time there were twenty-five major slave depots within a half mile from the St. Charles Hotel where African-American slaves could be bought and sold, including hotels and the Masonic Temple. Most of the slaves traded in New Orleans came from other states, particularly from the Atlantic seaboard.

 

[Samson]

Nice deflection.


Your concession is duly noted.

Thanks for confirming illogical blithering is the only reasoning of which you're capable.


By 1860 New Orleans was home to over 10000 French-born residents

That's the same proportion of Blacks!!! 6.3% !!!


All the blacks in New Orleans in 1860 were born in France.

Illogical? We were discussing slavery and you bring up diseases. Talk about illogical.

Apparently honesty as well as reading comprehension is foreign to you. You own link contradicts your claim that "All the blacks in New Orleans in 1860 were born in France"

By 1860 Louisiana was home to the largest Jewish population in the South, numbering about 8,000 residents.

Obviously all the blacks were born in France, and they were almost all Jewish.

 

[paperview]

1790 Census: Heads of families at the second ... - Google Books

Lemuel Haynes: FREE WHITE MALE

Wentworth Cheswell: FREE WHITE MALE

Glenn Beck won't tell you that part, LittleLogic.

No mention of Lemuel Haynes or Wentworth Chesswell in the link you provided.


Go figure.

Every time I start a conversation with you, never fails -- three posts in, I always ask myself why why why?

And again, Here I am again.

I could have figured you are too fucking dense to even read a linked census report.

 

[SFC Ollie]

NOTICE: Slavery ended approximately 150 years ago.

It shouldn't matter today, and no one today should claim that it hurts them today.

Anyone who blames slavery is wrong.

Anyone who denies that slavery happened in the USA is wrong.

Anyone who doesn't understand that there is still massive institutes of slavery is a fool.

Anyone (Americans only) who wants to label themselves as other than American is wrong.

In other words, we are American we share the country with 300 million other Americans. Give it a break already. The color of an Americans skin shouldn't mean shit.