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and this thread devolves into a perfect explanation of why there will never be peace in the middle east.
Hardly anyone is willing to admit that BOTH sides are at fault in multiple ways, nope more fun to blame one side or the other.
sounds sorta pretty close to right to me. i asked about solutions on a post and that pretty well died...and i conceded for the most part the past history while trying to acknowledge the facts. that wasn't easy.
people really need to be brave enough to get past all the wrongs and step forward and say "forget this. what can we do for each other that is mutually beneficial."
Al... I hope you won't be advocating rationality regularly, life's too short.and this thread devolves into a perfect explanation of why there will never be peace in the middle east.
Hardly anyone is willing to admit that BOTH sides are at fault in multiple ways, nope more fun to blame one side or the other.
For me it is simple. Somebody is mad at you for whatever reason and is determined to firebomb your house and kill or maim your family. Do you allow them to do that because you can see why they are mad? Can even sympathise with their anger?
Do you let them out of jail just because you understand why they are mad? Do you trust them just because they agree not to firebomb your house or try to kill your family for six months?
Or does the welfare and safety of your family take precedence over their hurt feelings?
"The 1948 Palestinian exodus, known in Arabic as the Nakba (Arabic: النكبة*, an-Nakbah, lit. "disaster", "catastrophe", or "cataclysm"),[1] occurred when approximately 711,000 to 725,000 Palestinian Arabs left, fled or were expelled from their homes, during the 1947–1948 Civil War in Mandatory Palestine and the 1948 Arab-Israeli War."For me it is simple. Somebody is mad at you for whatever reason and is determined to firebomb your house and kill or maim your family. Do you allow them to do that because you can see why they are mad? Can even sympathise with their anger?
Do you let them out of jail just because you understand why they are mad? Do you trust them just because they agree not to firebomb your house or try to kill your family for six months?
Or does the welfare and safety of your family take precedence over their hurt feelings?
For me it is simple. Somebody is mad at you for whatever reason and is determined to firebomb your house and kill or maim your family. Do you allow them to do that because you can see why they are mad? Can even sympathise with their anger?
Do you let them out of jail just because you understand why they are mad? Do you trust them just because they agree not to firebomb your house or try to kill your family for six months?
Or does the welfare and safety of your family take precedence over their hurt feelings?
maybe the solution is to create conditions and an environment where the warder's daughters and sons and the prisoner's daughters and sons won't kill each other.
i think you are approaching this the entirely wrong way. you have to put yourself totally and emotionally in the palestinian's shoes. i know this will happen...if israeli jews wipe out the palestinians, israel will be wiped out. the world will not forgive that.
In each of the wars she fought, Israel gave land back; if the Israelis wanted to wipe out the palestinains, they would have done so already.Israel has given absolutely zero reason to let anybody believe they want to wipe out anybody. They want to be left alone in peace, and I believe they would be 100% peaceful with anybody who understands and allows that.
The Palestinians/Hamas define a 'liberated Palestine' as one where ALL of Palestine is 'liberated', including the land upion which sits Israel. Given that, there's no reason to think that Israel will ever live in peace.There have been brief truces now and then, but all short lived and all without any acknowledgement of intent to allow the Israel to exist in peace.
One must note that this happened not because of any sort of diplomacy or act of 'international law' by the UN, but because they were tired of Israel smashing in their heads every time they tried to destroy her.Think Jordan and Egypt, both of whom DID agree that Israel should be allowed to exist and live in peace and who signed that conviction into law. Both had absolutely no fear of Israel and have enjoyed the free trade between their countries.
No question. Too bad the Jordanians left them out to dry, rather than take responsibility for their own people.But the Palestinians could have been enjoying the same peaceful coexistance with Israel had they adopted the same peaceful attitude.
Originally, the UN mandated 55% of the land between the Mediterranean Sea and Jordan River for a Jewish state in spite of the facts that Jews owned 6% of the land and comprised one-third of the population of Mandate Palestine.Think Jordan and Egypt, both of whom DID agree that Israel should be allowed to exist and live in peace and who signed that conviction into law. Both had absolutely no fear of Israel and have enjoyed the free trade between their countries. (That will probably change between Egypt and Israel now that the Muslim Brotherhood has taken over the Egyptian government.) But the Palestinians could have been enjoying the same peaceful coexistance with Israel had they adopted the same peaceful attitude. And Israel would not be occupying any lands the U.N. originally intended that the Palestinians would have.
One must note that this happened not because of any sort of diplomacy or act of 'international law' by the UN, but because they were tired of Israel smashing in their heads every time they tried to destroy her.Think Jordan and Egypt, both of whom DID agree that Israel should be allowed to exist and live in peace and who signed that conviction into law. Both had absolutely no fear of Israel and have enjoyed the free trade between their countries.
No question. Too bad the Jordanians left them out to dry, rather than take responsibility for their own people.But the Palestinians could have been enjoying the same peaceful coexistance with Israel had they adopted the same peaceful attitude.
Perhaps Jordan should ask for the return of the WB, thereby taking resonsbility for the security of her former borders and actions of her former people. This would go a long way to rest Israel's security fears as Jordan want no part of a hostile Israel.One must note that this happened not because of any sort of diplomacy or act of 'international law' by the UN, but because they were tired of Israel smashing in their heads every time they tried to destroy her.Think Jordan and Egypt, both of whom DID agree that Israel should be allowed to exist and live in peace and who signed that conviction into law. Both had absolutely no fear of Israel and have enjoyed the free trade between their countries.
No question. Too bad the Jordanians left them out to dry, rather than take responsibility for their own people.But the Palestinians could have been enjoying the same peaceful coexistance with Israel had they adopted the same peaceful attitude.
Yes, the Arab world's choice to allow the Palestinians suffer and even exacerbate their suffering rather than help them out is quite shameful. But rescueing the Palestinians, who have been committed to destroying Israel and Israelis as much as possible, is not and has never been Israel's responsibility.
Again, should the Arab world, most especailly the Palestinians, choose to give Israel the right to live in peace and without harrassment on its tiny little strip of land, and the Israelis do not reciprocate by being peaceful and non belligerant neighbors, then my quarrel will be with israel and not the Arabs.
Until then, Israel is not the ones who are in the most wrong.
More clearly this does the -real- problem show.I think Jordan might have done that had it not been for the unyeilding and belligerant stance of the Palestinian leadership be it Hamas, Hezbollah, PLO or whatever. Why would Jordan want to subject themselves to Israeli hostility caused by people intent on killing or maiming Israelis?
I think Jordan might have done that had it not been for the unyielding and belligerant stance of the Palestinian leadership be it Hamas, Hezbollah, PLO or whatever. Why would Jordan want to subject themselves to Israeli hostility caused by people intent on killing or maiming Israelis? Jordan has a very good thing going being Israel's peaceful trading neighbor.
Editedisrael would have been ok with jordan taking in it's own people. the details of that effort might have taken some working out. but jordan never wanted the so-called refugees.I think Jordan might have done that had it not been for the unyielding and belligerant stance of the Palestinian leadership be it Hamas, Hezbollah, PLO or whatever. Why would Jordan want to subject themselves to Israeli hostility caused by people intent on killing or maiming Israelis? Jordan has a very good thing going being Israel's peaceful trading neighbor.
I think Jordan might have done that had it not been for the unyielding and belligerant stance of the Palestinian leadership be it Hamas, Hezbollah, PLO or whatever. Why would Jordan want to subject themselves to Israeli hostility caused by people intent on killing or maiming Israelis? Jordan has a very good thing going being Israel's peaceful trading neighbor.
israel would have been ok with jordan taking in it's own people. the details of that effort might have taken some working out. but jordan never wanted the so-called refugees.
For me it is simple. Somebody is mad at you for whatever reason and is determined to firebomb your house and kill or maim your family. Do you allow them to do that because you can see why they are mad? Can even sympathise with their anger?
Do you let them out of jail just because you understand why they are mad? Do you trust them just because they agree not to firebomb your house or try to kill your family for six months?
Or does the welfare and safety of your family take precedence over their hurt feelings?
maybe the solution is to create conditions and an environment where the warder's daughters and sons and the prisoner's daughters and sons won't kill each other.
i think you are approaching this the entirely wrong way. you have to put yourself totally and emotionally in the palestinian's shoes. i know this will happen...if israeli jews wipe out the palestinians, israel will be wiped out. the world will not forgive that.
No I don't. I can empathise with the anger of that would be killer previously mentioned without in any way approving his method of dealing with his anger.
Israel has given absolutely zero reason to let anybody believe they want to wipe out anybody. They want to be left alone in peace, and I believe they would be 100% peaceful with anybody who understands and allows that.
There have been brief truces now and then, but all short lived and all without any acknowledgement of intent to allow the Israel to exist in peace. The Palestinians have never--I repeat NEVER--given any indication that they understand Israel's right to live in peace or that it should ever have any right to do so.
Until their leadership can do that and becomes proactive to ensure that it happens, they are the party who is most wrong and the least deserving of help.
That would come as a big surprise to Jonathan Pollard and Larry Franklin:I think Jordan might have done that had it not been for the unyielding and belligerant stance of the Palestinian leadership be it Hamas, Hezbollah, PLO or whatever. Why would Jordan want to subject themselves to Israeli hostility caused by people intent on killing or maiming Israelis? Jordan has a very good thing going being Israel's peaceful trading neighbor.
israel would have been ok with jordan taking in it's own people. the details of that effort might have taken some working out. but jordan never wanted the so-called refugees.
I agree. Israel has shown no interest in interfering in the internal affairs of other countries. All Israel has ever wanted is to simply be left alone in peace. We can argue until the cows come home the legalities, proprieties, and moral consequences of Israel's choices to defend itself and deal with those determined to destroy Israel, but the bottom line is that Israel has a history of leaving those alone who allow Israel its peace.
How many times do you have to be told, an "occupational force" cannot claim self-defense?I agree. Israel has shown no interest in interfering in the internal affairs of other countries. All Israel has ever wanted is to simply be left alone in peace. We can argue until the cows come home the legalities, proprieties, and moral consequences of Israel's choices to defend itself and deal with those determined to destroy Israel, but the bottom line is that Israel has a history of leaving those alone who allow Israel its peace.
I think Jordan might have done that had it not been for the unyielding and belligerant stance of the Palestinian leadership be it Hamas, Hezbollah, PLO or whatever. Why would Jordan want to subject themselves to Israeli hostility caused by people intent on killing or maiming Israelis? Jordan has a very good thing going being Israel's peaceful trading neighbor.
israel would have been ok with jordan taking in it's own people. the details of that effort might have taken some working out. but jordan never wanted the so-called refugees.
I agree. Israel has shown no interest in interfering in the internal affairs of other countries. All Israel has ever wanted is to simply be left alone in peace. We can argue until the cows come home the legalities, proprieties, and moral consequences of Israel's choices to defend itself and deal with those determined to destroy Israel, but the bottom line is that Israel has a history of leaving those alone who allow Israel its peace.
