Ann Frank and Jeff Dahmner- the absurdity of Christian Salvation

[JoeB131]

If you want to know why I reject Christian notions of "Salvation" and "Heaven" and "Hell", it's because of the absurdity of it.

Example. Christians believe that you only get into heaven if you accept Jesus as your Lord and Master and accept him into your soul and belong to the "right" Church. (Which means you are probably screwed 50% to 99% of the time.)

So by that logic. Ann Frank. Because she was Jewish, she didn't accept Jesus. She also had to spend much of her life hiding in an attic from Christians in Hitler's Army who were intent on sending her to a concentration camp, which they eventually did. Eventually she died in a camp, and by Christian Logic, is burning in the pit of hell for not accepting Jesus.

Conversely, you have Jeff Dahmner. Killed 17 young men. Had gay sex with some of them. Ate some of them. got sent to prison and like a lot of guys who go to prison, found Jesus, got baptized and became a Christian. Eventually, a fellow inmate who called himself "Christ" (no, I'm not making this up) brained him to death in the prison weight room. By Christian Logic, since he renounced his sin, got baptized, was reborn in Christ, he got to go to heaven if he was really and truly sincere.

Now, I'm sorry, just being a mere mortal with a mortal sense of justice, this is all manner of messed up.

 

[Meriweather]

If you want to know why I reject Christian notions of "Salvation" and "Heaven" and "Hell", it's because of the absurdity of it.

Example. Christians believe that you only get into heaven if you accept Jesus as your Lord and Master and accept him into your soul and belong to the "right" Church. (Which means you are probably screwed 50% to 99% of the time.)

There are over a billion Catholic Christians who hold no such belief. I suspect there are other denomination that also eschew that teaching. Speaking for Catholics, not any other denomination, its Catechism recognizes that Jews have an everlasting Covenant with God. It also states we do not know, who, if anyone is in hell. That judgment belongs to God alone.

So by that logic. Ann Frank. Because she was Jewish, she didn't accept Jesus. She also had to spend much of her life hiding in an attic from Christians in Hitler's Army who were intent on sending her to a concentration camp, which they eventually did. Eventually she died in a camp, and by Christian Logic, is burning in the pit of hell for not accepting Jesus.

Finding one denomination's teaching and applying it to all of Christianity is painting with too broad a brush. I don't know, but I am willing to bet, the majority of Christians hold no such belief regarding the fate of Ann Frank.

Conversely, you have Jeff Dahmner. Killed 17 young men. Had gay sex with some of them. Ate some of them. got sent to prison and like a lot of guys who go to prison, found Jesus, got baptized and became a Christian. Eventually, a fellow inmate who called himself "Christ" (no, I'm not making this up) brained him to death in the prison weight room. By Christian Logic, since he renounced his sin, got baptized, was reborn in Christ, he got to go to heaven if he was really and truly sincere.

Once again, you are highlighting a teaching some Christians--but by no means the majority--follow. I believe they call it, "Once saved, always saved," and that such saving occurs at a specific moment in time when one declares he/she "accepts" Christ.

Catholics (and perhaps others) believe that God judges the heart, not the lips. There is true repentance where one sincerely turns away from past actions and walks in the Way of the Lord. One begins a life-time journey (and perhaps beyond) of choosing rightly and becoming sanctified.

Only God knows if Dahlmer's heart underwent that type of conversion or not. Again, only God can judge, and we leave this to Him.

Now, I'm sorry, just being a mere mortal with a mortal sense of justice, this is all manner of messed up.

Keep in mind you are speaking of one teaching that many, many Christians reject.

 

[JoeB131]

There are over a billion Catholic Christians who hold no such belief. I suspect there are other denomination that also eschew that teaching. Speaking for Catholics, not any other denomination, its Catechism recognizes that Jews have an everlasting Covenant with God. It also states we do not know, who, if anyone is in hell. That judgment belongs to God alone.

Really? I went to catholic schools for 12 years and they pretty much stated that only the Catholics were getting into heaven.

IT's like the old joke about how the Catholics in heaven live behind a brick wall because they like to think they are the only ones up there.

Once again, you are highlighting a teaching some Christians--but by no means the majority--follow. I believe they call it, "Once saved, always saved," and that such saving occurs at a specific moment in time when one declares he/she "accepts" Christ.

Catholics (and perhaps others) believe that God judges the heart, not the lips. There is true repentance where one sincerely turns away from past actions and walks in the Way of the Lord. One begins a life-time journey (and perhaps beyond) of choosing rightly and becoming sanctified.

But that's not my point. My argument is that Dahnmer was completely sincere in his beliefs. He might have sincerely believed that God could forgive his sins, just like the Bible promises. (I don't know what was going on in Dahmner's brain other than a metal pipe at the end.) If his belief was sincere, should he get a total pass on all those guys he ate?

 

[Meriweather]

Really? I went to catholic schools for 12 years and they pretty much stated that only the Catholics were getting into heaven.

Really. I also went to Catholic School (Sisters of Notre Dame) and taught CCE for many years. Section 2, Chapter 3 of the Catholic Catechism covers the Church's relationship to people of other faiths, or of no faith at all. Do you recall which teaching materials your school was using?

IT's like the old joke about how the Catholics in heaven live behind a brick wall because they like to think they are the only ones up there.

Yes, that joke has been around for awhile, with "Catholic, Protestants, Baptists, etcetera being used, depending upon who is telling the joke.

But that's not my point. My argument is that Dahlmer was completely sincere in his beliefs. He might have sincerely believed that God could forgive his sins, just like the Bible promises. (I don't know what was going on in Dahlmer's brain other than a metal pipe at the end.) If his belief was sincere, should he get a total pass on all those guys he ate?

Who says Dahlmer would get a total pass? There are consequences to sin, and while God is a God of love and mercy, it is equally true that He is a God of justice.

 

[JoeB131]

Really. I also went to Catholic School (Sisters of Notre Dame) and taught CCE for many years. Section 2, Chapter 3 of the Catholic Catechism covers the Church's relationship to people of other faiths, or of no faith at all. Do you recall which teaching materials your school was using?

I ran screaming from that church as fast as I could as soon as i was old enough. somewhere between the nun telling me God had a reason to drown every baby in the world and another nun telling me that God had a good reason for my mom to die of cancer, I really wanted nothing to do with these psychos.

Who says Dahlmer would get a total pass? There are consequences to sin, and while God is a God of love and mercy, it is equally true that He is a God of justice.

why wouldn't he get a pass? He took Jesus into his soul. All sins forgiven, that's the propaganda.

 

[Meriweather]

I ran screaming from that church as fast as I could as soon as i was old enough. somewhere between the nun telling me God had a reason to drown every baby in the world and another nun telling me that God had a good reason for my mom to die of cancer, I really wanted nothing to do with these psychos.

Understandable. I am especially sorry about what you went through with your mom. Oftentimes, silence can be such a blessing when we lose a loved one. People feel so helpless...and feel they have to say something, anything.

A friend just lost her son (he was in his late twenties) after a three-year battle with cancer. He was a super young man, and the one thing he insisted upon at his funeral, that no one would say, "He lost his battle with cancer."

Up til the time he died, he was determined cancer would not make him less than who he was. Cancer tried, but cancer lost.

why wouldn't he get a pass? He took Jesus into his soul. All sins forgiven, that's the propaganda.

There are also teachings on justification and sanctification. In Catholic theology, accepting Jesus does not cover sin. An individual is not considered justified by the blood of Christ. In Catholic theology, a man must become truly just by choosing rightly (of his own free will), until choosing rightly is who he is. God's grace helps strengthen and guide him in this. We cannot be enter into the full presence of God until our soul is completely sanctified and holy. Learning to choose rightly and becoming a holy person does not happen in an instant. This process of the purging of sin can also continue after death.

 

[Steven_R]

Just chalk it up to God works in mysterious, dickish ways.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

“Now, I'm sorry, just being a mere mortal with a mortal sense of justice, this is all manner of messed up.”

It's also proof that there is no 'god' as perceived by theists, that religion and 'god' are in fact creations of man.

 

[JoeB131]

Understandable. I am especially sorry about what you went through with your mom. Oftentimes, silence can be such a blessing when we lose a loved one. People feel so helpless...and feel they have to say something, anything.

Oh, I don't know, I consider a blessing.

I spent much of my childhood being terrified of this woman.

At this funeral, I saw her for what she was. Someone who wasted her whole life on a lot of mumbo-jumbo superstition because she couldn't deal with the fact she was a Lesbian.

 

[Meriweather]

Just chalk it up to God works in mysterious...

We also have to be cognizant of the lens we look through. For various reasons/experiences, the lens I look through is the one that recognizes God is love. Every story I read, filters through that lens. Noah's flood, the story of the Amalekites, the first Passover--at first glance seem a little harsh.

 

[PostmodernProph]

There are over a billion Catholic Christians who hold no such belief. I suspect there are other denomination that also eschew that teaching. Speaking for Catholics, not any other denomination, its Catechism recognizes that Jews have an everlasting Covenant with God. It also states we do not know, who, if anyone is in hell. That judgment belongs to God alone.

Really? I went to catholic schools for 12 years and they pretty much stated that only the Catholics were getting into heaven.

apparently you weren't paying very good attention......

 

[JoeB131]

apparently you weren't paying very good attention......

Uh, no, I specifically asked the priests and nuns this question. and after some hemming and hawing, probably because they didn't want to get complaints from little Billy's parents that I said they were going to hell, they really did say their church was the only way to get into heaven.

 

[Meriweather]

Uh, no, I specifically asked the priests and nuns this question. and after some hemming and hawing, probably because they didn't want to get complaints from little Billy's parents that I said they were going to hell, they really did say their church was the only way to get into heaven.

Again, who were your teachers? Which order of nuns? Was your schooling pre-Vatican II?

The Catholic Church teaches that they are confident that the ways and doctrine it teaches faithfully follows the teachings of Christ and the Apostles and therefore the way to heaven. While the Church can guarantee these ways do lead to heaven, it cannot give the same guarantee to other ways--and entrusts that to God. This was the answer I was given when I asked about my atheist grandfather--and the Catechism backs it up.

It was also pointed out to me that there is a difference who know Christ and his ways--and reject them for evil--and those who hold no belief in God/Christ but walk the path of goodness anyway. I was told we can trust God to be loving, just, and merciful.

 

[JoeB131]

Again, who were your teachers? Which order of nuns? Was your schooling pre-Vatican II?

The Catholic Church teaches that they are confident that the ways and doctrine it teaches faithfully follows the teachings of Christ and the Apostles and therefore the way to heaven. While the Church can guarantee these ways do lead to heaven, it cannot give the same guarantee to other ways--and entrusts that to God. This was the answer I was given when I asked about my atheist grandfather--and the Catechism backs it up.

It was also pointed out to me that there is a difference who know Christ and his ways--and reject them for evil--and those who hold no belief in God/Christ but walk the path of goodness anyway. I was told we can trust God to be loving, just, and merciful.

Last time I prayed for something, it didn't happen.

And it was kind of an important thing.

I think the nuns we had were Benedictines, and they were after Vatican II, but I doubt these old carpet-munchers got the memo.

The best thing about the gay liberation movement is young Catholic Lesbians don't get caught up in this stupidity.

 

[Meriweather]

Last time I prayed for something, it didn't happen. And it was kind of an important thing.

I think the nuns we had were Benedictines, and they were after Vatican II, but I doubt these old carpet-munchers got the memo.

The best thing about the gay liberation movement is young Catholic Lesbians don't get caught up in this stupidity.

God isn't a genie who grants our every wish or answers our prayers in a yes or no fashion. I find I receive more input when I simply lay out the situation to God and then keep my mind, eyes, and ears open for ways and solutions that might not normally occur to me. God is not our puppet, nor are we His puppet. He will work with us.

 

[JoeB131]

God isn't a genie who grants our every wish or answers our prayers in a yes or no fashion. I find I receive more input when I simply lay out the situation to God and then keep my mind, eyes, and ears open for ways and solutions that might not normally occur to me. God is not our puppet, nor are we His puppet. He will work with us.

The Church was the one who told us to pray. And to give them big donations. Because God needs money. Lots of money.

God doesn't exist. And for that, I am truly grateful. Given what a thoroughly messed up character he is in the bible, I would truly hate to think he actually exists.

 

[Meriweather]

The Church was the one who told us to pray. And to give them big donations. Because God needs money. Lots of money.

God doesn't exist. And for that, I am truly grateful. Given what a thoroughly messed up character he is in the bible, I would truly hate to think he actually exists.

On the other hand, the school I went to taught us about the poor, and what we could do to lend a hand.

Yes, the Bible can be read from the "Messed up God" perspective. There are other perspectives as well.

 

[guno]

Really. I also went to Catholic School (Sisters of Notre Dame) and taught CCE for many years. Section 2, Chapter 3 of the Catholic Catechism covers the Church's relationship to people of other faiths, or of no faith at all. Do you recall which teaching materials your school was using?

I ran screaming from that church as fast as I could as soon as i was old enough. somewhere between the nun telling me God had a reason to drown every baby in the world and another nun telling me that God had a good reason for my mom to die of cancer, I really wanted nothing to do with these psychos.

Who says Dahlmer would get a total pass? There are consequences to sin, and while God is a God of love and mercy, it is equally true that He is a God of justice.

why wouldn't he get a pass? He took Jesus into his soul. All sins forgiven, that's the propaganda.

Crimes on credit

 

[LittleNipper]

It isn't about belonging to the "correct" church. It is about having a personal relationship with God through faith in His Son. As for Jeff, the fact is that he did get brained in prison. Those Jeff killed had their own opportunities in life. Jeff killed as a child of Satan. Jeff seems to have been killed as a child of God.

 

[LittleNipper]

It isn't about belonging to the "correct" church. It is about having a personal relationship with God through faith in His Son. As for Jeff, the fact is that he did get brained in prison. Those Jeff killed had their own opportunities in life. Jeff killed as a child of Satan. Jeff seems to have been killed as a child of God.