An honest question for conservatives

[Avorysuds]

Show us all where the constitution gives this awkward power of promoting for the general welfare...

Okie dokie. Article 1, Section 8: "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States." I was in error, however, because I said "promote" when I should have said "provide".

Then when you fail to do that please explain how promoting equals providing.

Actually, the Constitution says "provide". See above.

Webster's: "the state of doing well especially in respect to good fortune, happiness, well-being, or prosperity." Not sure about subsidies, but it seems that unemployment and the rest help people do well in respect to happiness, well-being, and/or prosperity. If you have a dictionary definition from the 1780s, let me know. (You might.)

Then when you fail to do that please give us the reason that even after getting something like 70% of the budget spend on welfare why we are falling apart as a nation and in an economic depression….

I counted 54% of US Federal budget spent on welfare, but why quibble about 16%? And the Great Recession (depression, whatever) is mainly from the housing bubble bursting, which in turn is tied to bad lending practices and people buying homes they cannot afford. Neither deals with welfare spending.

I honestly can't wait to not get a single answer from you.

Sorry to disappoint you.

You didn't answer my questions... The constitution does not enumerate the power of providing for the general welfare. The powers are bolded, the part you quoted is not a power, it's telling you what the powers will be about, then it lists the powers.


The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

Next you didn't answer why 54% of the budget is spent on welfare and yet we are in a economic depression... All you did was claim that the housing bubble appeared out of nowhere when anyone that has honestly looked at what happened understand the entire housing bubble was in fact propped up by Government welfare spending to get people into homes they couldn't afford. Without that simple fact the housing bubble would have never happened, no matter how much blame people try and place on “greed.” So no, you didn't dissapoint me, you failed.

 

[blackhawk]

First, this is not trolling. I am an admitted liberal but I enjoy hearing different points of view so I can better understand what other people see or think. That's why this is an honest question: I want to understand the conservative viewpoint.

What role(s) should a government play in our lives?

With so many conservatives decrying taxation and government regulation, what should (if anything) governments do? Are there any tasks that should belong to the government rather than a private business? Assuming the government collects something in taxes, what should those tax dollars be spent on?

Again, I promise this is an honest question and I'm not setting folks up with a pre-planned, "airtight" counter-argument.

It's not taxation or regulation I have a problem with it's the waste of the tax dollars I have a problem with people say to fix our economic problems raise taxes or tax the rich more. What does that solve if the government continues to waste the money as it has in the past under both parties? My feelings on regulation are along the same lines we go from under regulation on one side which invites corruption and greed to over regulation on the other with strangles growth but never anything in the middle again caused by both parties.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

First, this is not trolling. I am an admitted liberal but I enjoy hearing different points of view so I can better understand what other people see or think. That's why this is an honest question: I want to understand the conservative viewpoint.

What role(s) should a government play in our lives?

With so many conservatives decrying taxation and government regulation, what should (if anything) governments do? Are there any tasks that should belong to the government rather than a private business? Assuming the government collects something in taxes, what should those tax dollars be spent on?

Again, I promise this is an honest question and I'm not setting folks up with a pre-planned, "airtight" counter-argument.

What role should government play in our lives? None.

It shouldn't be telling doctors how they treat their patients.

It shouldn't be telling parents that their children cannot play outside.

It shouldn't be telling business that they need to get expensive training to paint nails.

It shouldn't be telling people what they can say.

Government should have no rope in our lives at all, government should be there to deal with the things we cannot handle without it.

 

[Bfgrn]

In 1956 I escaped Hungary after the Revolution. My dream was to come to the United States, but due to the racist and xenophobic law by Democratic governments of the past, the quota for Hungarians was filled by the time it was my turn. So, as a second choice I immigrated to Canada.

Through all the years, while I learned to love Canada, married a Canadian girl had children, I never lost my fascination for America.

In 1993 I joined a group of Presbyterians from Indianapolis on my trip to Homestead, FL to help after the devastation of Hurricane Andrew. I have since then joined them, returned for volunteering in Appalachia, Georgia and Missouri.

It was also my good luck to work in our company's head office in Akron, Ohio, on invitation, and on a fully paid expense account.

I was there, in Akron, when the hijacked planes hit the twin towers. I spent winters in the American South. I traveled the Interstate Highways from Boston to San Diego, from Seattle to Miami and in the process I had meals, I talked to Americans, I slept in all the contiguous lower 48 states. I also got hooked on American politics and American TV and I don't mean sit-coms.

That is more than most American can say.

Now, sadly, I must say that if Obama wins a re-election, I am not sure that I will ever be welcome in the States again.

Where does that conclusion come from? Are you aware that it was the Democratic Party that authored and passed the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965?

In the early 1960's President John F. Kennedy called the then-quota-system "nearly intolerable". And his brother was the leading advocate in the Senate for it's passage.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Steaming piles are mostly composed of false assumptions,

In this case it was composed, or rather "composted" from an abysmally stupid statement. As a leftist you prefer the rule of man to the rule of law, ergo you sought to grant natural rights to lords and masters, however in doing so you reveal an void of intellect.

like that anything was said about 'rulers'.
We are talking about language here, not religion or political philosophy.

We are talking the source of rights here. Man has the right to life. No ruler can grant the right to life, they can only infringe it by murder. Man has the right to expression. No ruler can grant expression, they can only infringe it by imprisoning those who express ideas they wish crushed. Man has the right to move unencumbered. No ruler can grant the right to roam, they can only chain the free to infringe that right.

Those who would claim that rights are granted by man are fools, morons babbling idiocy.

 

[Uncensored2008]

except you

You suffer from delusions of relevance.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

The Federal government is supposed to do what the Constitution allows it to do, and nothing else.

According to whom?

What authority determines those boundaries as to what government may or may not do?

All else is left to the individual and State governments.

Who determines what 'all else' is? And when an individual or state or local government violates a fundamental, inalienable right of a citizen, what recourse does that citizen have to seek remedy when none is forthcoming via the legislative process?

 

[Avorysuds]

The problem with the "general welfare clause" crowd is passed the fact that they can't read... They couldn't name a single "idea" that Government should not be allowed to do once the "general welfare" rule is brought into play.

What this means is that Government only has to make a case, not even sell their case, just make it... that the program they want to do is for the people's wellbeing and then that power is now enumerated to our Government by default.

Seriously, list me a power/policy/law that Government can’t possibly make when the “general welfare clause” is used… Fuck, the Government could nuke any major city and claim they were trying to cut back on America’s Obesity rate… While the people would never stand for that there are other things the Government actually does, like start wars, pass SS, Obamacare Medicare part D and so on… All for your welfare, even if the program fails and we can’t actually afford it. There is nothing you can’t do! Obama bought stock in fucking GM for fuck sake and the reason was “to save American jobs,” thanks to General welfare that’s totally legit!!!

 

[Avorysuds]

The Federal government is supposed to do what the Constitution allows it to do, and nothing else.

According to whom?

What authority determines those boundaries as to what government may or may not do?

All else is left to the individual and State governments.

Who determines what 'all else' is? And when an individual or state or local government violates a fundamental, inalienable right of a citizen, what recourse does that citizen have to seek remedy when none is forthcoming via the legislative process?

Wow... Yeah, just fuckin wow...


Question... Do you see the Constitution as a law or an opinion? Serious question.

 

[there4eyeM]

What is so difficult in understanding thought, linguistics and how the mind works? As long as you attribute your internal powers to external sources, you will continue to be in pain and error.

 

[Uncensored2008]

According to whom?

The Constitution, you know, that document you have utter contempt for.

What authority determines those boundaries as to what government may or may not do?

The Constitution, that is the purpose of having one under the rule of law. I realize you promote the rule of man, but we were founded under the rule of law. Codified and enumerated powers delegated to government, with all not directly delegated, retained by the people.

Again, you have utter contempt for the United States Constitution, but it IS the authority, despite your love of dictatorship and the arbitrary rule of masters.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

On the flip side, I think the Supreme Court has so distorted the the intent of the commerce clause in the Constitution as to render it completely meaningless. We have come to the point where no one can name a transaction where the federal government is excluded from interfering. We have actually arrived at a point where NOT engaging in a business transaction is actionable!

Or…

The Court has interpreted the Commerce Clause in such a manner as to allow a successful, modern capitalist state to evolve and flourish, particularly in the context of a global marketplace.

 

[healthmyths]

First, this is not trolling. I am an admitted liberal but I enjoy hearing different points of view so I can better understand what other people see or think. That's why this is an honest question: I want to understand the conservative viewpoint.

What role(s) should a government play in our lives?

With so many conservatives decrying taxation and government regulation, what should (if anything) governments do? Are there any tasks that should belong to the government rather than a private business? Assuming the government collects something in taxes, what should those tax dollars be spent on?

Again, I promise this is an honest question and I'm not setting folks up with a pre-planned, "airtight" counter-argument.

Thank you for your open mind which from my experiences in dialogue is refreshing!
I compliment you.

I know though you and others at first blush will find my comments naive but if as you appear you are a logical rational person consider that everyday YOU break some type of
law,rule or regulation. You can't help it! With 41,000 new laws and rules and regulations in states since the first of the year and with Obamacare adding 13,000 pages of rules and regulations it will be an impossibility for anyone NOT to break a rule or regulation!

The solution is education. Teaching with the SAME evangelistic fervor that global warming is done from pre-school up through TV advertising by practical examples the concept of common sense, golden rule, do unto others as you would have others do unto you.

As a result there would BE a reduced need for MORE LAWS, like recently I heard a radio personality say."if it is a law I won't text and drive"! DUH!!! Why should it take a law to comprehend you can't stop your car in the time your eyes are on your cell!
But we haven't preached, cajoled, ADVERTISED from pre-school simple common sense examples!
Examples in pre-school of what it means "do unto others...for example: don't push another kid down because the kid can get hurt,..
as you would have others do "NOT PUSH you"...unto you!
The same religious fervor as we've kids now with "global warming" using paper, etc., THAT fervor should be in teaching common sense, i.e. YOU don't wear your pants around your knees because YOU might have to run! You don't spit because it spreads disease NOT because it is illegal! You don't drive 50mph in a 30mph school zone because it is the law BUT the law of physics says you can't stop when the kid darts out in your path!

You see what I mean? Common sense that says you don't do activities like sky diving and expect MY insurance rates NOT to go up when there are "accidents"! Common sense.

Teaching common sense that the LAWS of PHYSICS always trumph man's laws!

And that means LESS government LAWS and regulations.. like for instance..
"There was a guy named John Patskien (ph), came here to escape communism in the Soviets and Hungary, came for freedom in our country.
They put him in jail for three years. Do you know what he did?
He put clean dirt on dry land and they said, you know what, dirt is a pollutant and dry land is a wet land.

Read more: Rand Paul targets 'Government Bullies' in new book - Interviews - Hannity - Fox News

Seriously we have a law you can't put clean dirt on dry land???

Common Sense is missing in the Government because the current government CAME from Government and has NO idea that their salaries are paid by taxes.. I swear they don't know that!

 

[Avorysuds]

On the flip side, I think the Supreme Court has so distorted the the intent of the commerce clause in the Constitution as to render it completely meaningless. We have come to the point where no one can name a transaction where the federal government is excluded from interfering. We have actually arrived at a point where NOT engaging in a business transaction is actionable!

Or…

The Court has interpreted the Commerce Clause in such a manner as to allow a successful, modern capitalist state to evolve and flourish, particularly in the context of a global marketplace.

And you of course base this on the stunningly awesome economic situation we have found ourselves in... Right? Or does this one and stagnation of the last 15 years not count despite Government involvement in *everything* growing at record deficit building rates?

As I have said, the Democratic party is officially the party of stupid people. In all fairness the Republican party is the party of hypocrites in that they identify why people are stupid but then of course vote for the very thing they pointed out as stupid, like McCain, Bush and Mitt Romney.

 

[healthmyths]

First, this is not trolling. I am an admitted liberal but I enjoy hearing different points of view so I can better understand what other people see or think. That's why this is an honest question: I want to understand the conservative viewpoint.

What role(s) should a government play in our lives?

1) Protect our homeland.
2) Protect our political and economic foreign interests
3) Create fiscal policy conducive to the growth of business and industry
4) Establish and enforce domestic criminal law that is based upon actual harm to the citizenry
5) After the top four are accomplished, shut the fuck up and stay out of our lives.

100% Agree with you!

 

[eflatminor]

On the flip side, I think the Supreme Court has so distorted the the intent of the commerce clause in the Constitution as to render it completely meaningless. We have come to the point where no one can name a transaction where the federal government is excluded from interfering. We have actually arrived at a point where NOT engaging in a business transaction is actionable!

Or…

The Court has interpreted the Commerce Clause in such a manner as to allow a successful, modern capitalist state to evolve and flourish, particularly in the context of a global marketplace.

Wonder how America became a successful, modern capitalist state before the Progressive fucks decided they knew what was best for everyone else?

 

[OODA_Loop]

Webster's: "the state of doing well especially in respect to good fortune, happiness, well-being, or prosperity." Not sure about subsidies, but it seems that unemployment and the rest help people do well in respect to happiness, well-being, and/or prosperity.

Provide for the General Welfare of the United States.

Not indivduals.

Got news for you Ooda, that particular thing you stated was not specified........

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence,[note 1] promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Preamble to the United States Constitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Are you one of those Constitutional scholars who inserts words into it to change meanings to prove your point?

The preamble is collective too, although not the general welfare clause under discussion which is Article 1, Section 8

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;


•To borrow money on the credit of the United States;
•To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes;
•To establish a uniform rule of naturalization, and uniform laws on the subject of bankruptcies throughout the United States;
•To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures;
•To provide for the punishment of counterfeiting the securities and current coin of the United States;
•To establish post offices and post roads;
•To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries;
•To constitute tribunals inferior to the Supreme Court;
•To define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and offenses against the law of nations;
•To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;
•To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;
•To provide and maintain a navy;
•To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces;
•To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;
•To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
•To exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten miles square) as may, by cession of particular states, and the acceptance of Congress, become the seat of the government of the United States, and to exercise like authority over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the state in which the same shall be, for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dockyards, and other needful buildings;

 

[KGB]

First, this is not trolling. I am an admitted liberal but I enjoy hearing different points of view so I can better understand what other people see or think. That's why this is an honest question: I want to understand the conservative viewpoint.

What role(s) should a government play in our lives?

With so many conservatives decrying taxation and government regulation, what should (if anything) governments do? Are there any tasks that should belong to the government rather than a private business? Assuming the government collects something in taxes, what should those tax dollars be spent on?

Again, I promise this is an honest question and I'm not setting folks up with a pre-planned, "airtight" counter-argument.

Fair question, so I'll give you a fair answer. This conservative believes that the government should do only what it is enpowered to do by the people & enshrined in the Constitution. Not one iota more. So pretty much, if it isn't spelled out explicity, then it should be delegated to the states per the Founding Fathers intent. They were very careful about that as they feared a strong central government & wanted a strict balance. That is why it drives us conservatives up a wall when libs started talking about the Constitution is a living document. It isn't, but it is designed to be flexible, which is why it has lasted 225 years today. I hope that answers your question.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

On the flip side, I think the Supreme Court has so distorted the the intent of the commerce clause in the Constitution as to render it completely meaningless. We have come to the point where no one can name a transaction where the federal government is excluded from interfering. We have actually arrived at a point where NOT engaging in a business transaction is actionable!

Or…

The Court has interpreted the Commerce Clause in such a manner as to allow a successful, modern capitalist state to evolve and flourish, particularly in the context of a global marketplace.

The real problem here is your assumption that capitalism and government are compatible. States are many different things, but there has never been, and never will be, one that is capitalist.

 

[P@triot]

First, this is not trolling. I am an admitted liberal but I enjoy hearing different points of view so I can better understand what other people see or think. That's why this is an honest question: I want to understand the conservative viewpoint.

What role(s) should a government play in our lives?

With so many conservatives decrying taxation and government regulation, what should (if anything) governments do? Are there any tasks that should belong to the government rather than a private business? Assuming the government collects something in taxes, what should those tax dollars be spent on?

Again, I promise this is an honest question and I'm not setting folks up with a pre-planned, "airtight" counter-argument.

Personally - I think that is easy to answer. The role the government should play is the exact role layed out in the US Constitution. Nothing less. Nothing more.