An America Without Unions

[Artevelde]

Trust me, I've read a lot more US history than you have. What you say is not accurate. The unions were absolutely instrumental in gaining significant protection for workers and this would not have fallen from the sky.

Yeah, Jack Nicholson was awesome in that movie. Stallone did ok in his too.

Very funny.

 

[Cammmpbell]

unions are dying...

You should hope that they don't. As soon as tne last major union organi ation dies whatever decent wages, safety concerns, benefits from companies will also begin to go. If you could only see what is was like when companies ran things with no concern except bottom line profits you would hope such a time never came back to America.

To survive in a dignified manner we humans need to feel secure, have a safe environment, enough healthy nourishing food, access to medical treatment, a roof over our heads and the means to see our children educated and healthy also able to live their lives in a dignified manner. I'll guarantee you that without anything in the world to stop them the companies would begin from day one to chip away at those elements one little, hardly noticible piece at a time and within 20 years most of those things would be non existent or sadly deficient. I've been there and I'll never forget it.

In the late 1930's my Dad was working in a box factory unloading skids. He ruptured himself severely lifting a heavy load and the second day he missed he was fired. In those days companies did as they pleased and an employees health and well being was at the bottom of their list. There was no such thing as an excused day off for any reason and nothing like company provided anything. If a foreman let an employee off for any reason he was known among the men as a "Good Ol' Guy." If he didn't like an employee it was just a matter of time till that employee would be gone. All the foreman would do is watch the employee and wait for any kind of mistake and VOILA! "Draw Your Pay...You're Fired."

I have an advantage over most of you. I'm 77 years old and actually witnessed the company run society. Unions were responsible for adding a little dignity and safety to the lives of tens of millions directly but to hundreds of millions indirectly. We had better hope that there will never be a day when none exist.

We also have Federal and State Labor laws now that wasn't in place years ago. An employee has rights whether there's a union or not. A good company will know they have to treat good employees right or they won't have them anymore. They want to keep employees happy and on the job, that's how they make their money! Don't give me the BS that if there were no unions that people would loose their rights. If a company isn't fair with their employees, they'll have none. The 1930's were nothing like it is now...there's no comparison.

Bullshit. You've just witnessed what companies will do when the banks melted down in 2008. Any company, unregulated will continue one small piece at a time until people are working in unsafe conditions for a pittance. It couldn't be more clear. The Greed of companies knows no bounds. I'm surprised you haven't noticed the $1000 shower curtains, the $9000 umbrella stands, the millions of dollars worth of precious art on their walls, multi million dollar yachts, the use of corporate jets as if they belonged to them, etc. These are the pricks who run companies and bottom line profits and dividends to their shareholders and their only real supervision, their self appointed boards of directors are responsible for corporate greed and having seen what they did in the 30's I hope they are never totally uncurtailed and unregulated again during the future of our great republic.

Unions are the only thing keeping companies from unbridled cutting of workers benefits and the consequences. Unions are the only regulation concerning employees and their destiny and when the Apple company moved 80% of it's employees to China paying starvation wages for 12 hour shifts, some employees even living on the premises to cut transportation costs, while enjoying a spiral up of it's sales and stock value and a third or less of it's employees located in the U S.......This is 2012 not 1930.

WHAT MORE DOES ONE NEED TO SEE

 

[copsnrobbers]

You should hope that they don't. As soon as tne last major union organi ation dies whatever decent wages, safety concerns, benefits from companies will also begin to go. If you could only see what is was like when companies ran things with no concern except bottom line profits you would hope such a time never came back to America.

To survive in a dignified manner we humans need to feel secure, have a safe environment, enough healthy nourishing food, access to medical treatment, a roof over our heads and the means to see our children educated and healthy also able to live their lives in a dignified manner. I'll guarantee you that without anything in the world to stop them the companies would begin from day one to chip away at those elements one little, hardly noticible piece at a time and within 20 years most of those things would be non existent or sadly deficient. I've been there and I'll never forget it.

In the late 1930's my Dad was working in a box factory unloading skids. He ruptured himself severely lifting a heavy load and the second day he missed he was fired. In those days companies did as they pleased and an employees health and well being was at the bottom of their list. There was no such thing as an excused day off for any reason and nothing like company provided anything. If a foreman let an employee off for any reason he was known among the men as a "Good Ol' Guy." If he didn't like an employee it was just a matter of time till that employee would be gone. All the foreman would do is watch the employee and wait for any kind of mistake and VOILA! "Draw Your Pay...You're Fired."

I have an advantage over most of you. I'm 77 years old and actually witnessed the company run society. Unions were responsible for adding a little dignity and safety to the lives of tens of millions directly but to hundreds of millions indirectly. We had better hope that there will never be a day when none exist.

We also have Federal and State Labor laws now that wasn't in place years ago. An employee has rights whether there's a union or not. A good company will know they have to treat good employees right or they won't have them anymore. They want to keep employees happy and on the job, that's how they make their money! Don't give me the BS that if there were no unions that people would loose their rights. If a company isn't fair with their employees, they'll have none. The 1930's were nothing like it is now...there's no comparison.

Bullshit. You've just witnessed what companies will do when the banks melted down in 2008. Any company, unregulated will continue one small piece at a time until people are working in unsafe conditions for a pittance. It couldn't be more clear. The Greed of companies knows no bounds. I'm surprised you haven't noticed the $1000 shower curtains, the $9000 umbrella stands, the millions of dollars worth of precious art on their walls, multi million dollar yachts, the use of corporate jets as if they belonged to them, etc. These are the pricks who run companies and bottom line profits and dividends to their shareholders and their only real supervision, their self appointed boards of directors are responsible for corporate greed and having seen what they did in the 30's I hope they are never totally uncurtailed and unregulated again during the future of our great republic.

Unions are the only thing keeping companies from unbridled cutting of workers benefits and the consequences. Unions are the only regulation concerning employees and their destiny and when the Apple company moved 80% of it's employees to China paying starvation wages for 12 hour shifts, some employees even living on the premises to cut transportation costs, while enjoying a spiral up of it's sales and stock value and a third or less of it's employees located in the U S.......This is 2012 not 1930.

WHAT MORE DOES ONE NEED TO SEE

At least they do it with profits. The Fed does it on our backs and china's, which again is on our backs.
Fuck china.

 

[Cammmpbell]

We also have Federal and State Labor laws now that wasn't in place years ago. An employee has rights whether there's a union or not. A good company will know they have to treat good employees right or they won't have them anymore. They want to keep employees happy and on the job, that's how they make their money! Don't give me the BS that if there were no unions that people would loose their rights. If a company isn't fair with their employees, they'll have none. The 1930's were nothing like it is now...there's no comparison.

Bullshit. You've just witnessed what companies will do when the banks melted down in 2008. Any company, unregulated will continue one small piece at a time until people are working in unsafe conditions for a pittance. It couldn't be more clear. The Greed of companies knows no bounds. I'm surprised you haven't noticed the $1000 shower curtains, the $9000 umbrella stands, the millions of dollars worth of precious art on their walls, multi million dollar yachts, the use of corporate jets as if they belonged to them, etc. These are the pricks who run companies and bottom line profits and dividends to their shareholders and their only real supervision, their self appointed boards of directors are responsible for corporate greed and having seen what they did in the 30's I hope they are never totally uncurtailed and unregulated again during the future of our great republic.

Unions are the only thing keeping companies from unbridled cutting of workers benefits and the consequences. Unions are the only regulation concerning employees and their destiny and when the Apple company moved 80% of it's employees to China paying starvation wages for 12 hour shifts, some employees even living on the premises to cut transportation costs, while enjoying a spiral up of it's sales and stock value and a third or less of it's employees located in the U S.......This is 2012 not 1930.

WHAT MORE DOES ONE NEED TO SEE

At least they do it with profits. The Fed does it on our backs and china's, which again is on our backs.
Fuck china.

Bush, Bernanke and Paulson gave the failing banks nearly $800 billion of taxpayer's money to keep them solvent. Real Capitalism In Action. Fuck Them!!

Strange the Republicans call the president a socialist. They jump in and spend a hundred times what a year's welfare costs and give it to the banks with no strings attached. They weren't even told they had to loan the money. I guess socialism is OK as long as the give-a-way is going to companies or the wealthy:

 

[Big Fitz]

I have. It's not only been a minor of mine, but a passion in life. That's why I say it's accurate. Have YOU read history from more than one source or school approved book?

Trust me, I've read a lot more US history than you have. What you say is not accurate. The unions were absolutely instrumental in gaining significant protection for workers and this would not have fallen from the sky.

Hoffa, Norma Rae and "F.I.S.T" are not historically that accurate.

Tell me. Was war required to end slavery? It was dying out all over the world. Only the US held a war to help end it.

Adam Smith's invisible hand works wonders and nobody gets credit for it. That I think is the real problem most lefties have with it. It never operates fast enough, give the solutions they want or give them credit.

How long could factory owners have kept up Victorian Era oppression and filth? The Temperance League and hundreds of preachers were pushing against social improvements. It would have only been a matter of time before their focus came off 'Demon Rum' and gone after industrial abuses.

The 40 hour work week. Where'd that idea come from? A union vote? No. Individuals putting forth ideas and other people rallying around it. If unions never came to be, humans would have rebelled against the factory masters in other ways.

It's not the construct that does the change. It is people. If you studied history, which your braggadocio shows you only have in passing or at least as far as your teachers allowed you to think about, knowledge about human nature throughout history.

 

[Artevelde]

Trust me, I've read a lot more US history than you have. What you say is not accurate. The unions were absolutely instrumental in gaining significant protection for workers and this would not have fallen from the sky.

Hoffa, Norma Rae and "F.I.S.T" are not historically that accurate.

Tell me. Was war required to end slavery? It was dying out all over the world. Only the US held a war to help end it.

Adam Smith's invisible hand works wonders and nobody gets credit for it. That I think is the real problem most lefties have with it. It never operates fast enough, give the solutions they want or give them credit.

How long could factory owners have kept up Victorian Era oppression and filth? The Temperance League and hundreds of preachers were pushing against social improvements. It would have only been a matter of time before their focus came off 'Demon Rum' and gone after industrial abuses.

The 40 hour work week. Where'd that idea come from? A union vote? No. Individuals putting forth ideas and other people rallying around it. If unions never came to be, humans would have rebelled against the factory masters in other ways.

It's not the construct that does the change. It is people. If you studied history, which your braggadocio shows you only have in passing or at least as far as your teachers allowed you to think about, knowledge about human nature throughout history.

May I suggest you try to remedy your grammar?

For the rest, I taught American history at college level so I do know a bit about it. I doubt if you ever read one single book about US labor history.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Unions, with the unyielding mindset that their members are entitled to dictate a certain wage and set of benefits, are a large part of why jobs go offshore.

Welcome to the global mrketplace, where labor is a commodity and it's cost is based on supply and demand.

 

[Artevelde]

Unions, with the unyielding mindset that their members are entitled to dictate a certain wage and set of benefits, are a large part of why jobs go offshore.

Welcome to the global mrketplace, where labor is a commodity and it's cost is based on supply and demand.

That is simplistic. If you check historical figures you will find that US industry was at its strongest when union membership was at much higher levels than today.

That doesn't mean that unions don't share part of the blame for what has gone wrong in US industry, but they are not the root cause for its decline.

 

[Big Fitz]

Hoffa, Norma Rae and "F.I.S.T" are not historically that accurate.

Tell me. Was war required to end slavery? It was dying out all over the world. Only the US held a war to help end it.

Adam Smith's invisible hand works wonders and nobody gets credit for it. That I think is the real problem most lefties have with it. It never operates fast enough, give the solutions they want or give them credit.

How long could factory owners have kept up Victorian Era oppression and filth? The Temperance League and hundreds of preachers were pushing against social improvements. It would have only been a matter of time before their focus came off 'Demon Rum' and gone after industrial abuses.

The 40 hour work week. Where'd that idea come from? A union vote? No. Individuals putting forth ideas and other people rallying around it. If unions never came to be, humans would have rebelled against the factory masters in other ways.

It's not the construct that does the change. It is people. If you studied history, which your braggadocio shows you only have in passing or at least as far as your teachers allowed you to think about, knowledge about human nature throughout history.

May I suggest you try to remedy your grammar?

For the rest, I taught American history at college level so I do know a bit about it. I doubt if you ever read one single book about US labor history.

May I suggest you try to remedy your grammar?

mm. Fix my grammar. Translation: I fucked up and made to look an idiot.

I even know who Eugene V. Debs is without need of Wikipedia and many of his contributions (good and bad) to this nation.

For the rest, I taught American history at college level so I do know a bit about it.

Location: Brussels, Belgium

Expatriate or arrogant foreigner? I wonder...

Assuming you're telling truth, which is questionable. You're just an online poster here and can claim anything I'll go under that assumption you might be telling truth. But now I get it. You ARE the brainwasher, hence the desire to defend the flawed party line of history.

If you think I'm just going to roll over and believe you because of your claimed credentials (and fraud is rampant on the interwebs) you need to flee back to the faculty lounge. We can't be threatened with bad grades for saying and showing you are wrong here. Too many years debating against a captive audience and/or fawning audience have weakened your skills.

Let me ask you this. Why won't you address any of my points instead of trying to remove points for grammar? You trying to grade on a style guide for internet forums, somehow?

Explain to me why slavery in England then disappeared by peaceful social reforms rather than violent bloodshed? Why no John Brown moment? Do you even understand what the Peel social reform movement existed and moved forward in spite of no real support from industry or unions?

I'm unimpressed with you so far.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Unions, with the unyielding mindset that their members are entitled to dictate a certain wage and set of benefits, are a large part of why jobs go offshore.

Welcome to the global mrketplace, where labor is a commodity and it's cost is based on supply and demand.

That is simplistic.

It is also correct.

If you check historical figures you will find that US industry was at its strongest when union membership was at much higher levels than today.

In a time when the global labor market did not exist and US unions did not have to compete for jobs, sure.
But, that was then and this is now. Competition lowers prices and increases quality -- if the unions do not modify their mindset to reflect this, then their membership will cease to exist.

 

[editec]

May I suggest you try to remedy your grammar?

For the rest, I taught American history at college level so I do know a bit about it. I doubt if you ever read one single book about US labor history.

mm. Fix my grammar. Translation: I fucked up and made to look an idiot.

I even know who Eugene V. Debs is without need of Wikipedia and many of his contributions (good and bad) to this nation.

Location: Brussels, Belgium

Expatriate or arrogant foreigner? I wonder...

Assuming you're telling truth, which is questionable. You're just an online poster here and can claim anything I'll go under that assumption you might be telling truth. But now I get it. You ARE the brainwasher, hence the desire to defend the flawed party line of history.

If you think I'm just going to roll over and believe you because of your claimed credentials (and fraud is rampant on the interwebs) you need to flee back to the faculty lounge. We can't be threatened with bad grades for saying and showing you are wrong here. Too many years debating against a captive audience and/or fawning audience have weakened your skills.

Let me ask you this. Why won't you address any of my points instead of trying to remove points for grammar? You trying to grade on a style guide for internet forums, somehow?

Explain to me why slavery in England then disappeared by peaceful social reforms rather than violent bloodshed? Why no John Brown moment? Do you even understand what the Peel social reform movement existed and moved forward in spite of no real support from industry or unions?

I'm unimpressed with you so far.

You really DO need to read your history, mate.

England didn't NEED slaves.

They had the IRISH to exploit, instead.

 

[Artevelde]

It is also correct.

Actually, it isn't. The decline of US industry really is a much more complex evolution.

Look at Germany, for example, where union power is a lot stronger than in the US, and where industry remains highly competitive in the global market place.

To understand US industrial decline you have to look at things like inadequate education, inadequate industrial leadership, excessive costs for health care, etc.

That doesn't mean US unions have not been backward. They have been. But they were never powerful enough to cause US industrial decline.

 

[M14 Shooter]

It is also correct.

Actually, it isn't. The decline of US industry really is a much more complex evolution.

Um... I'm not talking about the decline of US industry.
Please pay attention.

 

[Artevelde]

I think you are confusing cause and effect. Union membership in the US has been dwindling for decades, irrespective of the economic fortunes of the US.

 

[Artevelde]

May I suggest you try to remedy your grammar?

For the rest, I taught American history at college level so I do know a bit about it. I doubt if you ever read one single book about US labor history.

mm. Fix my grammar. Translation: I fucked up and made to look an idiot.

I even know who Eugene V. Debs is without need of Wikipedia and many of his contributions (good and bad) to this nation.

Location: Brussels, Belgium

Expatriate or arrogant foreigner? I wonder...

Assuming you're telling truth, which is questionable. You're just an online poster here and can claim anything I'll go under that assumption you might be telling truth. But now I get it. You ARE the brainwasher, hence the desire to defend the flawed party line of history.

If you think I'm just going to roll over and believe you because of your claimed credentials (and fraud is rampant on the interwebs) you need to flee back to the faculty lounge. We can't be threatened with bad grades for saying and showing you are wrong here. Too many years debating against a captive audience and/or fawning audience have weakened your skills.

Let me ask you this. Why won't you address any of my points instead of trying to remove points for grammar? You trying to grade on a style guide for internet forums, somehow?

Explain to me why slavery in England then disappeared by peaceful social reforms rather than violent bloodshed? Why no John Brown moment? Do you even understand what the Peel social reform movement existed and moved forward in spite of no real support from industry or unions?

I'm unimpressed with you so far.

Well, at least that's one thing we have in common: I'm very unimpressed

By the way: unions became important in the US after slavery was abolished. Unions have nothing to do with slavery and everything with industrial relations.

And in the field of industrial relations unions played every bit as important a rol in the US as in Britain (the big difference lies in the party political role of the unions in Britain which was largely absent in the US).

 

[LogikAndReazon]

if labor unions were so great they would start their own union run companies and not have to impose their fascist principles upon those who arent interested................

let them compete in the market and see how fast their backwards utopian fantasies get them....

 

[whitehall]

Is the radical left completely ignorant or do they just parrot ignorant radicalism? Unions accomplished good things in the past and nobody is out to get rid of them even the Wisconsin governor. The systemic problem with unions is that they are often led by criminals who steal the union money and distribute it to crooked politicians. The membership votes for their leaders and there is little law-enforcement or government regulations can do. What sane people want to do is limit the unions power in municipal negotiations where taxpayer money is involved but the radical element turns violent. People can see what happens to unionized factories, they go bankrupt because the cost of union contracts including hidden lavish retirement benefits is sometimes more than the profit margin. Nobody wants to get rid of unions but something has to be done to balance their power.

 

[Syphon]

Is the radical left completely ignorant or do they just parrot ignorant radicalism? Unions accomplished good things in the past and nobody is out to get rid of them even the Wisconsin governor. The systemic problem with unions is that they are often led by criminals who steal the union money and distribute it to crooked politicians. The membership votes for their leaders and there is little law-enforcement or government regulations can do. What sane people want to do is limit the unions power in municipal negotiations where taxpayer money is involved but the radical element turns violent. People can see what happens to unionized factories, they go bankrupt because the cost of union contracts including hidden lavish retirement benefits is sometimes more than the profit margin. Nobody wants to get rid of unions but something has to be done to balance their power.

do you not see a correlation between declining union membership and stagnant wage in the middle class?

 

[Big Fitz]

mm. Fix my grammar. Translation: I fucked up and made to look an idiot.

I even know who Eugene V. Debs is without need of Wikipedia and many of his contributions (good and bad) to this nation.

Expatriate or arrogant foreigner? I wonder...

Assuming you're telling truth, which is questionable. You're just an online poster here and can claim anything I'll go under that assumption you might be telling truth. But now I get it. You ARE the brainwasher, hence the desire to defend the flawed party line of history.

If you think I'm just going to roll over and believe you because of your claimed credentials (and fraud is rampant on the interwebs) you need to flee back to the faculty lounge. We can't be threatened with bad grades for saying and showing you are wrong here. Too many years debating against a captive audience and/or fawning audience have weakened your skills.

Let me ask you this. Why won't you address any of my points instead of trying to remove points for grammar? You trying to grade on a style guide for internet forums, somehow?

Explain to me why slavery in England then disappeared by peaceful social reforms rather than violent bloodshed? Why no John Brown moment? Do you even understand what the Peel social reform movement existed and moved forward in spite of no real support from industry or unions?

I'm unimpressed with you so far.

Well, at least that's one thing we have in common: I'm very unimpressed

By the way: unions became important in the US after slavery was abolished. Unions have nothing to do with slavery and everything with industrial relations.

And in the field of industrial relations unions played every bit as important a rol in the US as in Britain (the big difference lies in the party political role of the unions in Britain which was largely absent in the US).

hey, it's you lefties making the connection of Unions to freedom, while they engage in hostile tactics towards the public AND industry. Unions have been around for 5 centuries, give or take. They were protagonists of trade protectionism, keeping people from prospering by working for themselves, increasing the cost of labor making fewer jobs available to the public, closing shops to industries to prevent their inevitable weakening, and dozens of other problematic 'improvements' for the sake of a small select group of members over the public good.

I don't care if you're "impressed". You're too used to people trying to be it seems, and I don't see any evidence you know more than jolly fuck-all here. You've declined to show how either I, or anyone else is wrong, preferring to raise strawmen, false choices and pretend your self-annointed authority means diddly here.

Now you're saying that unions are important post slavery? I think you need to elaborate why if you want to have any chance at credibility here. To me this smacks of the idea that unions were used to create a NEW slave class. Oh it's not so obvious as loss of freedom and working for free till you die. No. But enslaved to a power structure and locked into choices only the unions would allow. History seems to show this is really the goal of it.

The Steamboat Pilot Union of the mid 1800's broke the back of independent operators on the Mississippi, by forcing all pilots to be in the union and all riverboats to have them on. The profession went quickly from one of honor and respect to one of near enslavement to one's boat and post compared to the way it used to be. They made improvements to how to operate a boat, and then refused to share with the public, locking their charts crossing methods, and logs up from anyone but members, endangering the lives of tens of thousands who utilized the river. Why? To protect themselves and gain control of a large pot of money found in river trade.

Of course, that union met it's destruction at the hands of new technology: The railroads.

I'm putting up information. You actually have something other than floppy strawmen ready for the torch? Or you gonna run to the faculty lounge?

 

[Big Fitz]

if labor unions were so great they would start their own union run companies and not have to impose their fascist principles upon those who arent interested................

let them compete in the market and see how fast their backwards utopian fantasies get them....

Better to be the power behind the throne and avoid the blame than be front and center.