An America Without Unions

[Syphon]

Gee, how do the 85%+ of us that aren't in unions survive?

it is because of unions we have the 40 hour work week, minimum wage, paid vacation, company sponsored benefits, work place safety standards and maternity/paternity leave.

yup as usual those unions are terrible fascist bastards.....

 

[MikeK]

No, it is not the exclusive creator of the middle class. Remember, the middle class was originally the merchant class and started coming into being in the 1400's, and didn't really start to rise till the industrial revolution. Then it came into it's modern form as we know it thank to Henry Ford... the dirty rotten capitalist who stated that his workers should be paid enough to afford his product. This started a bidding war for qualified labor that goes on to this day. Unions piggybacked on it, and for a SHORT period, helped negotiate many things that did increase the quality of life for laborers.

It has long since lost that reason for existence because they have succeeded so well.

The REAL creator of the Middle Class, as it were are Opportunity, Individual Freedom, Property Ownership and Prosperity

The American middle class was made by FDR's new deal and Unions.

Before that? There were the very wealthy..and very poor.

That's simply Not True, Yet Another Liberal Myth.

There has always been a Middle Class, It has gotten Stronger but it was always there.

Despite you Delusional Liberals constantly trying to lay claim to single Handedly Creating it.

The term Middle Class did not emerge with distinct and substantive meaning until the late 1940s when a significant segment of the formerly designated Working Class began owning rather than renting homes, buying cars, attending college and merging into "white collar" occupations and social situations.

But in keeping with your almost-correct statement that there always has been a segment of the population hovering between what was a small, exceptionally wealthy Upper class and a vast, exceptionally poor Lower class. This group of anointed managers, exalted toadies and bureaucrats was not big enough to be considered a class and was socially positioned much too close to their rich benefactors to be thought of as anywhere near a middle.

The influence of FDR's New Deal brought about such a radical change in distribution of the Nation's wealth that the upper class shrank in its vertical holdings (volume) but expanded horizontally in distribution and number, and the lower class radically declined in number as its members expanded and moved closer to the rapidly emerging middle.

Although my father had a telephone in his locksmith shop I can recall the day (late 40s) we got our first home telephone. I believe that was the day our family was presumptively accepted into the American Middle Class -- all thanks to the New Deal, the union movement and the successful redistribution of our Nation's wealth.

What we are seeing today are the results of a long-range effort on the part of the corporatocracy to reverse the effects of the New Deal, eliminate the unions and ultimately destroy the social element responsible for the rise of America's world dominance. It's Middle Class.

While a case can be made that there always has been three levels in American society, it is not true there always has been a Middle Class. But unless you are among the wealthy Upper Class you'd better hope the Middle Class retains and fully restores its status. Otherwise be prepared for a radical decline in your living standard.

So don't allow your obvious contempt for "Liberals" to operate in opposition to your own best interests. Todays (neo) Conservatives are definitely not on your side.

 

[Caroljo]

I used to be a member of one of the biggest unions in this country. I dropped my membership when I found out they where giving my dues to politicians I did not support, and then they lied to me about it when I brought it up. Fuck'em, I dont need them for anything.
I paid $360 a year in dues and got a couple t-shirts out of it. Now I send that money to a uniform store and buy uniforms and gear that I need for work throughout the year "I am actually getting something for my money compared to when I was giving it to the union".

no one forces you to join a union. its a choice

Is it a "choice" for the husband with 4 kids that hasn't had a job in a year? There's not that many decent jobs out there right now....is he going to turn that job down because there's a union? I suppose he can just tell the owner that he'll only take the job if the union is gone? He doesn't have a choice if he wants to take care of his family, and possibly get some health insurance. You can go ahead and say that yes, he could turn it down...but is that what he SHOULD do? Some people have no choice.......

 

[Syphon]

I used to be a member of one of the biggest unions in this country. I dropped my membership when I found out they where giving my dues to politicians I did not support, and then they lied to me about it when I brought it up. Fuck'em, I dont need them for anything.
I paid $360 a year in dues and got a couple t-shirts out of it. Now I send that money to a uniform store and buy uniforms and gear that I need for work throughout the year "I am actually getting something for my money compared to when I was giving it to the union".

no one forces you to join a union. its a choice

Is it a "choice" for the husband with 4 kids that hasn't had a job in a year? There's not that many decent jobs out there right now....is he going to turn that job down because there's a union? I suppose he can just tell the owner that he'll only take the job if the union is gone? He doesn't have a choice if he wants to take care of his family, and possibly get some health insurance. You can go ahead and say that yes, he could turn it down...but is that what he SHOULD do? Some people have no choice.......

its still a choice. every choice has consequences, but none the less it is still a choice.

he can choose to not take the job on principle if he doesnt agree with unions. the consequence is that he still wont have a job and your family suffers due to it. but he will have his principles intact.

like i said no one forces anyone to join a union.

whats your definition of a "decent" job? there are many decent jobs out there, maybe there are just jobs he doesnt want to do...

 

[Caroljo]

no one forces you to join a union. its a choice

Is it a "choice" for the husband with 4 kids that hasn't had a job in a year? There's not that many decent jobs out there right now....is he going to turn that job down because there's a union? I suppose he can just tell the owner that he'll only take the job if the union is gone? He doesn't have a choice if he wants to take care of his family, and possibly get some health insurance. You can go ahead and say that yes, he could turn it down...but is that what he SHOULD do? Some people have no choice.......

its still a choice. every choice has consequences, but none the less it is still a choice.

he can choose to not take the job on principle if he doesnt agree with unions. the consequence is that he still wont have a job and your family suffers due to it. but he will have his principles intact.

like i said no one forces anyone to join a union.

whats your definition of a "decent" job? there are many decent jobs out there, maybe there are just jobs he doesnt want to do...

When you have no job and a family, you suck it up and do what you have to do. It doesn't mean he would choose to do it, but he'd have to so they can survive. Principle means nothing when you have small mouths to feed. But again, if he's a liberal he knows he'll get what he needs anyway.....

 

[Staidhup]

From a historical perspective unions were needed, however, in today's work place environment the banter is employee relations, productivity and quality, if a company wants to capitalize on the benefits afforded by technology it mandates a stable work force. Is it not safe to assume employee retention requires providing a fair wage and benefits to retain and attract talented workers? What benefit do unions provide in today's market place? If unions are still required, please explain the benefit they add to manufacturing, job creation, and stability? Is it right that a union controlled and managed pension funds have the legal right to demand an employer to cover deficiencies after the employer has contributed to the pension fund as per the terms of their contract ? Is it right that unions have the right to promote candidates for public office and control legislation via threat? How is it that union's can extract dues from an employee against their will, is this right? The right to work without being a member of a union is one's own freedom of choice. Manufacturing jobs will never return to America, we lost our competitive edge years ago, now it's time to move on, recognize that one requires an education and skill sets suitable for employment, not a union to advance and better one's standard of living. We have laws on the books protecting all worker's and their rights, its time to move on.

 

[Big Fitz]

Gee, how do the 85%+ of us that aren't in unions survive?

it is because of unions we have the 40 hour work week, minimum wage, paid vacation, company sponsored benefits, work place safety standards and maternity/paternity leave.

yup as usual those unions are terrible fascist bastards.....

So... if unions never existed, the 40 hour work week, child labor laws, overtime... all the accomplishments you claim are the sole credit of the labor unions would never have happened either?

Horseshit. It would have come from a different venue.

 

[alan1]

Throughout my life I have specifically sought out work with non-union companies. I've done this for a few reasons.

One reason is that companies that haven't been over-taken by a union are usually pretty fair companies. Unions were not able to a get a foothold because the employees were already being paid a fair price for their labor.

An even more important reason is that I am not willing to accept a compensation package that some union thinks is the right package for me and everybody else. I'm not exactly the same as all the other employees, nor do I want the exact same things they want as it pertains to compensation for my labor. In my younger years, I usually managed to negotiate a better salary for myself than my coworkers did (or that a one-size-fits-all union could have done). Recently, I have negotiated with my employer for more vacation time in lieu of a higher raise. I get more vacation time than my coworkers doing the exact same job as me. Heck, I already managed to negotiate a higher salary and make more money than most of them already, now I ask for more vacation (and get it). A union can't negotiate individual desires like that, what they get applies to everybody exactly the same. Some people prefer more money, for others (like me) time off is more important. I prefer to handle my compensation negotiation on my own.

As a side note, a weeks paid vacation is about the equivalent to a 2% raise in salary if you look at the cash value. Once I got my salary at the high end in my job class, it was amazing how willing a company with an avg annual salary increase of 3 - 3.5% was willing to give me an extra week vacation (equivalent to 2% salary increase) and a 2.5% salary increase along with my vacation grant. I am getting a net 4.5% increase but the dept SVP can still report it as a 2.5% salary increase, thus keeping his avg salary increase within the company budget of 3 - 3.5%. In addition to that, my lower percentage allows him to give a little bit more to others, especially since 1% of my salary is more than 1% of the lower paid folk. He can give a few other people 3.52% and make them happy knowing they exceeded the company avg increase.

It's a win for everybody. No union can do that. I don't want a union negotiating for me, I've done perfectly fine negotiating my own compensation for the 36 years I've been in the work force.

 

[MikeK]

Throughout my life I have specifically sought out work with non-union companies. I've done this for a few reasons.

One reason is that companies that haven't been over-taken by a union are usually pretty fair companies. Unions were not able to a get a foothold because the employees were already being paid a fair price for their labor.

[...]

Your entire thesis is based on your ignorance of the fact that non-union companies which pay a fair wage and offer competitive benefits do so for only one reason -- to discourage the adoption of a union by its employees.

If there were no unions the Nation's employers would quickly transform the work force into a mass of groveling cut-throat competitors willing to do whatever it takes to get and keep a job. Those of you who neither understand nor believe that were born into the Middle Class generation and you've been spoiled by it.

You need to study the history of the American labor movement and learn what life was like before it came into being. You need to learn what the union movement was about. But if you're not inclined to read there are some very good movies about the union movement, each of which is based on facts, not fiction.

These are some good union books. All are available from Amazon:

Not Your Father's Union Movement

Histories Of Labor

Rebuilding Labor (Organizing and Organizers In The New Union Movement)

Labor Pains: Inside the New Union Movement


And here are some good union movies:

Harlan County USA
The Molly McGuires
On The Waterfront
The Organizer
Native Land
Norma Rae
Matewan
Hoffa

If you can read those books and watch those movies you will have a valuable education.

 

[MikeK]

Gee, how do the 85%+ of us that aren't in unions survive?

it is because of unions we have the 40 hour work week, minimum wage, paid vacation, company sponsored benefits, work place safety standards and maternity/paternity leave.

yup as usual those unions are terrible fascist bastards.....

So... if unions never existed, the 40 hour work week, child labor laws, overtime... all the accomplishments you claim are the sole credit of the labor unions would never have happened either?

Horseshit. It would have come from a different venue.

Really?

How about enlightening us on specifically what "venue" you're referring to which, in place of the union movement, would have intervened on behalf of the exploited working class and transformed it into the American Middle Class, the envy of the developed world and the most successful and prosperous societal phenomenon in the History of Civilization.

 

[Cammmpbell]

unions are dying...

You should hope that they don't. As soon as tne last major union organi ation dies whatever decent wages, safety concerns, benefits from companies will also begin to go. If you could only see what is was like when companies ran things with no concern except bottom line profits you would hope such a time never came back to America.

To survive in a dignified manner we humans need to feel secure, have a safe environment, enough healthy nourishing food, access to medical treatment, a roof over our heads and the means to see our children educated and healthy also able to live their lives in a dignified manner. I'll guarantee you that without anything in the world to stop them the companies would begin from day one to chip away at those elements one little, hardly noticible piece at a time and within 20 years most of those things would be non existent or sadly deficient. I've been there and I'll never forget it.

In the late 1930's my Dad was working in a box factory unloading skids. He ruptured himself severely lifting a heavy load and the second day he missed he was fired. In those days companies did as they pleased and an employees health and well being was at the bottom of their list. There was no such thing as an excused day off for any reason and nothing like company provided anything. If a foreman let an employee off for any reason he was known among the men as a "Good Ol' Guy." If he didn't like an employee it was just a matter of time till that employee would be gone. All the foreman would do is watch the employee and wait for any kind of mistake and VOILA! "Draw Your Pay...You're Fired."

I have an advantage over most of you. I'm 77 years old and actually witnessed the company run society. Unions were responsible for adding a little dignity and safety to the lives of tens of millions directly but to hundreds of millions indirectly. We had better hope that there will never be a day when none exist.

 

[Douger]

Go to China and visit Foxconn.....or just Google it. There's your non-union style life.
Better yet ! Become self employed ! You can REALLY be on your own. No unemployment, no health care, no sick daze, no breaks, lunch hours,holidaze, no....................

The best thing about it is never having to ask permission for anything or having to bleat "Yes Sir".
I would have done The Foxconn( jumped out a window) instead.

 

[Big Fitz]

it is because of unions we have the 40 hour work week, minimum wage, paid vacation, company sponsored benefits, work place safety standards and maternity/paternity leave.

yup as usual those unions are terrible fascist bastards.....

So... if unions never existed, the 40 hour work week, child labor laws, overtime... all the accomplishments you claim are the sole credit of the labor unions would never have happened either?

Horseshit. It would have come from a different venue.

Really?

How about enlightening us on specifically what "venue" you're referring to which, in place of the union movement, would have intervened on behalf of the exploited working class and transformed it into the American Middle Class, the envy of the developed world and the most successful and prosperous societal phenomenon in the History of Civilization.

Sorry, you don't get specifics while allowing yourself to lob around generalizations.

 

[Artevelde]

Really? Read up on a bit of history.

 

[Caroljo]

unions are dying...

You should hope that they don't. As soon as tne last major union organi ation dies whatever decent wages, safety concerns, benefits from companies will also begin to go. If you could only see what is was like when companies ran things with no concern except bottom line profits you would hope such a time never came back to America.

To survive in a dignified manner we humans need to feel secure, have a safe environment, enough healthy nourishing food, access to medical treatment, a roof over our heads and the means to see our children educated and healthy also able to live their lives in a dignified manner. I'll guarantee you that without anything in the world to stop them the companies would begin from day one to chip away at those elements one little, hardly noticible piece at a time and within 20 years most of those things would be non existent or sadly deficient. I've been there and I'll never forget it.

In the late 1930's my Dad was working in a box factory unloading skids. He ruptured himself severely lifting a heavy load and the second day he missed he was fired. In those days companies did as they pleased and an employees health and well being was at the bottom of their list. There was no such thing as an excused day off for any reason and nothing like company provided anything. If a foreman let an employee off for any reason he was known among the men as a "Good Ol' Guy." If he didn't like an employee it was just a matter of time till that employee would be gone. All the foreman would do is watch the employee and wait for any kind of mistake and VOILA! "Draw Your Pay...You're Fired."

I have an advantage over most of you. I'm 77 years old and actually witnessed the company run society. Unions were responsible for adding a little dignity and safety to the lives of tens of millions directly but to hundreds of millions indirectly. We had better hope that there will never be a day when none exist.

We also have Federal and State Labor laws now that wasn't in place years ago. An employee has rights whether there's a union or not. A good company will know they have to treat good employees right or they won't have them anymore. They want to keep employees happy and on the job, that's how they make their money! Don't give me the BS that if there were no unions that people would loose their rights. If a company isn't fair with their employees, they'll have none. The 1930's were nothing like it is now...there's no comparison.

 

[copsnrobbers]

You remember the old song performed by Tennessee Ernie Ford " You Load Sixteen Tons And What Do You Get, Another Day Older And Deeper In Debt"

That's not just the words to a song.....it happened. The railroads, the mines, every small enterprise or company paid the least amount they could get by with and there were no benefits at all. People worked 12 hours a day for less than a dollar and their mid day meal. If the company one was working for heard a complaint or a discouraging word an employee was told to collect their pay and find another job.

In the 1940's and early 50's a corporate executive earned about $20,000-$25,000 per year.Along about that time the unions began to negotiate for and gain some salary amounts and benefits. Every time the union was about to be successful at some effort the companies(by default) gave it to their salaried people first........where I worked sometimes as close as two weeks before they awarded it to the union employees.

By the 70's a corporate executive's pay had increased to several hundred thousand dollars a year because the unions were begining to accomodate base line employees with a living wage and new benefits each year.

When I hired in with Union Carbide Corp. in 1952 they had a pension plan but cost was shared by the employee. A person earning $4000-$5000 a year who had a family of four usually didn't even take part in the guaranteed lifetime pension which was based upon their salary at retirement and their years of service. They couldn't afford it if they planned to educated their children. I was single and began the first day to pay into the pension plan.

About 4-5 years later the union negotiated for and received a company funded pension plan and they negotiated for it to be retroactive. I received a lump sum payment for every penny I had paid into the plan and retired with a company funded pension after 41 years service.

People today have no clue about what the unions did for ordinary employees. The only reason companies today pay anybody a goddam dime more than they have to is the threat of a union. If they weren't still on the scene companies would still have railroad workers living in side cars paying half of their salary in rent and miners would still be working in totally unsafe conditions for enough to buy their groceries at the stores the companies operated.

The youth of today look around and think companies are on their side, and a few are, but for the most part a company operates for the highest bottom line profit and would screw their own kin for each employee to earn $10 a week less or to not be required to carry health insurance. Before unions there was no such thing as OSHA or the EPA and employees worked in asbestos, uranium, coal mines, and all manner of other potentially unsafe conditions and men bragged about working in the most adverse conditions. I know....I worked in the Oak Ridge Gaseous Diffusion Plant(ORGDP) where the light green powdered form of uranium was everywhere and the operators didn't even wear masks or wear an individual badge to determine radiation exposure till the early 70's

If there had never been such a thing as a union 90% of the employees of today would be working for a pittance in completely unsafe conditions. A company has never given anybody a dime they didn't have to and they never will. Thank goodness a few large corporations who employ mostly well educated technical personnel have begun to see the light and voluntarily treat the employees with respect and pay them good salaries.......It happens about as frequently as teeth in a chicken.

I see no issue with private unions.
Its the public unions, they're killing us. Tax payers can't be responsible for paying high undeserved salaries and then 25-30 years at 80% and cola and health care for no services after the fact.

Monster welfare program.

 

[Big Fitz]

Really? Read up on a bit of history.

I have. It's not only been a minor of mine, but a passion in life. That's why I say it's accurate. Have YOU read history from more than one source or school approved book?

 

[Artevelde]

Really? Read up on a bit of history.

I have. It's not only been a minor of mine, but a passion in life. That's why I say it's accurate. Have YOU read history from more than one source or school approved book?

Trust me, I've read a lot more US history than you have. What you say is not accurate. The unions were absolutely instrumental in gaining significant protection for workers and this would not have fallen from the sky.

 

[editec]

Unions are greedy?



Oh my GOD that's funny.

 

[copsnrobbers]

I have. It's not only been a minor of mine, but a passion in life. That's why I say it's accurate. Have YOU read history from more than one source or school approved book?

Trust me, I've read a lot more US history than you have. What you say is not accurate. The unions were absolutely instrumental in gaining significant protection for workers and this would not have fallen from the sky.

Yeah, Jack Nicholson was awesome in that movie. Stallone did ok in his too.