american public schools

[manu1959]

suck because of the unions and a lack of competiton.....

prove my statement wrong

 

[Working Man]

suck because of the unions and a lack of competiton.....

prove my statement wrong

I don't disagree.. Many of the parents of todays school children suck too. So when their kids underachieve, they bitch that George W is leaving their kids behind.

There is no real accountability in public ed.. My writing skills suck. I had an old maid drunk for English during a couple of years in highschool. And she sucked too. The school administration knew she was a crack pot, but they cared more about politics and thier own image. PTOs and PTAs??? I have little use for the groups because of what I have seen them back and petition for.. The two groups are basicaly stooges for the teachers, at least around these parts.

Dumbing down for the least bright is what I feel is going on.. Therefore, the colleges have to dumb down too, at least the public universities.. In my four year school, ,there was only a couple of classes that I felt were college level.. The rest were high school type/caliber. One of the big draws for the school is its ability to create teachers.. That college sucks. You now have teachers who missed the bar, and probably won't set high ones for their students..

 

[insein]

suck because of the unions and a lack of competiton.....

prove my statement wrong

That would be like trying to prove that Jesus was a hindu. You could do it, but it wouldnt mean that its true.

Add to the list of culprits the politicians that raise taxes every year in the name of "the children" and throw some of the money at the schools and the rest to their pockets.

 

[Abbey Normal]

suck because of the unions and a lack of competiton.....

prove my statement wrong

Absolutely correct, but incomplete.

I would add:
American public schools suck because school districts are afraid of lawsuits, and therefore do not impose effective discipline.

 

[dilloduck]

Absolutely correct, but incomplete.

I would add:
American public schools suck because school districts are afraid of lawsuits, and therefore do not impose effective discipline.

I'll vouch for that---my kid says that his worst teachers are the ones who cannot (or will not) control their class. Discipline would do wonders but the law has made it difficult for parents and teachers.

 

[Nienna]

Absolutely correct, but incomplete.

I would add:
American public schools suck because school districts are afraid of lawsuits, and therefore do not impose effective discipline.

This is a big part of it. But I would also add that the subject material, "innovative" teaching methods, and lowering of standards are the other half.

 

[Nienna]

We should have an "Education" forum.

 

[Gem]

as a teacher...i'd like to add a couple...

I don't think that the union plays as big a part as some here would like to make it out to be. I don't particularly like the union...however, teachers DO need protection in the enviroment we now find ourselves in...and school districts (as some have pointed out) are too afraid of lawsuits to protect us.

Add to this the fact that many parents are either too busy or simply do not care about being involved in their child's educations anymore...in the past...if a teacher said, "You haven't been doing your homework, I'm calling your mother..." the child would know that when he got home he was going to have to deal with parents who were furious at HIM for not doing his homework and making the teacher have to call home.

When I call home now...I here a few responses....

1) Well he just doesn't want to do his homework...and I don't want to fight with him when I get home from work...

2) He told me that you told him that he had to do extra homework because he talks too much in class. Who are you to tell my child he talks to much and he won't be doing any homework until the principal assures me that you aren't picking on him.

3) He tells me he does it. I want to show I trust him.

4) Hi, you've reached the Jones residence...we can't come to the phone right now because both of us work until 8PM...but if you leave us a 3rd or 4th message, we assure you that you will not here from us until we get a report card that shows 3 failing grades...and then we'll call and yell at you for not letting us know.


Teachers, in many ways, have their hands tied. If they teach the way they should be...firm discipline, high standards...then the school gets calls about the mean teacher who assigns too much work and the school asks the teacher to scale back (or all of the students start to fail...and under No Child Left Behind the teacher gets in trouble for the students failing)....so instead...the teacher scales back...assigns fewer homework assingments because half of the kids won't do them anyway...dumbs down tests to appease parents and administrators...

I understand why many of you are frustrated...I am too. But blaming the teachers is, in my opinion as someone presently on the front lines...a big mistake. I think that privitazation might be a potential solution...but I do not think anything is going to happen until we as a society start making parents act like parents...and stop allowing anyone to sue for any reason under the sun.

 

[Jimmyeatworld]

I agree with all of the above, and I'll add that teacher's salaries are much lower than they should be. When the janitors that scrap gum off the desks and mop vomit off the floor are making more money than the teachers who are suppose to be preparing the kids for the future, something isn't right.

 

[Nienna]

I totally agree that teachers have it rough many times. My daughter's teacher (in the "fuzzy math" thread) is frustrated with the "new math." I could tell by the way she rolled her eyes when I asked her how they were going to do subtraction. My sister is a special ed Kgarten teacher. She has been through a lawsuit bc a kid's parents WANTED him labeled "special," and my sister said he was completely normal. Just needed someone to pay attention to him.

The frustration I feel about the union is all these "new" methods. I'm not opposed to making learning fun with activities, or trying new things for kids who have trouble learning the traditional way. I think that's great. But it seems like teachers are FORCED to teach material or methods that they don't agree with/know don't work.

 

[BATMAN]

Home School your child. Mind you, it takes real dedication on the parent's part, and it would do you good to find a support group.

My 15 year old has been Home schooled his whole life and is in the 97% test average.

Yes, I'm proud.

 

[Mr. P]

Home School your child. Mind you, it takes real dedication on the parent's part, and it would do you good to find a support group.

My 15 year old has been Home schooled his whole life and is in the 97% test average.

Yes, I'm proud.

And should be! Bravo!!!!!

 

[fuzzykitten99]

Not all public schools suck. The local ones (most of them) here in the Anoka-Hennepin District produce very good results. Same with the Mounds View district just south of me.

It also has a good deal to do with parenting though. Schools may lack real discipline and consequences, but good behavior and guidance to the same, starts at home with mom and dad.

I am glad I live where I do. While there are many kids here that live in 1 parent homes, they still become (most do anyway) good students and go on to be hardworking citizens because of the values that are actually taught here. Some inevitably fall through the cracks, but sadly, that is the way it is.

I was wary of putting my children through public school because of the things I didn't like about public schools, especially since many things have changed since my last year in HS, 1999.

I then talked to several of my neighbors who have kids in the schools my kids will be at, and they are all pretty satisfied with the results. My brother has ADHD (seriously), and the district here has a great program, that teaches the kids to not use their disability as an excuse for not doing a good job or not trying hard. They tell the kids that it may suck, but they will have to work a little harder and to accept it. They get the kids to find a way that they learn best, and apply that to everything they do. My brother is achieving A's and B's, when he used to get C's and lower.

 

[Abbey Normal]

My daughter does great in school, but it's in spite of what is going on around her. We don't blame the teachers or school adminstration, per se. Most of them try hard, in a no-win situation sandwiched between a frightened school district and parents who don't do their part at home with their own children.

In my school district job, I now am privvy to much of what the problem kids get away with in public schools these days, and it isn't pretty. Teachers deserve battle pay, and a district administration that will have the guts to remove troublemaker kids permanently. After a certain amount of time, even expelled kids can come back if mom pushes for it and threatens a lawsuit.

 

[Working Man]

I agree with all of the above, and I'll add that teacher's salaries are much lower than they should be. When the janitors that scrap gum off the desks and mop vomit off the floor are making more money than the teachers who are suppose to be preparing the kids for the future, something isn't right.

$63000/year which is based on 1260hrs is not a bad deal sport..Summers off. Every freakin holiday one can think of, and then some that aren't even on the books yet.. Yeah, right... They are underpaid..

Now get back to the custodian. He/she is cleaning up after those dirtly little bastards. I know. I did it for a couple of years. And some of the teachers are F'n slobs too. I was going to call them pigs, but pigs have a purpose in life. The "building engineers" do more than just clean the p, s, and puke from the walls and floors.. They clean the gum and crud so that the learning environment is more hospitable to learning.... And they do it for the regular hours be they 35,37, or 40 hours per week/2080 hours per year, if they are lucky. They too get sick and have to report when the weather is bad. So I don't begrudge some of the "janitors" from making a decent wage.. Would you prefer to cut their salaires so just the less than stellar(molesters, etc.) can only afford to walk the halls with your kids?

I have very little faith in the kids of "today". To be honest and fair, my generation was the group who had grandparents in WW2,, so my age group has dropped the ball too. I think our parents made it too easy for us, and OUR generation has produced the dopes who have bread SUPERDOPES...

I think there is a link between the jobs/opportunities that used to be in this country, and the quality of student/citizen who lived here. As the jobs moved away, so did the quality of youth/citizenship. OK, to that link about jobs I mentioned before,, let's add in,, What link is there, statisicaly, that could be used to describe/give reason for, the number of unwed single parents that have fatherless children in this country? At what date in the US history did the social acceptence of the single parent, and demise of jobs/citizenship occur?? Seems as we gained one, we lost the other(s).

And before I forget,, has anybody heard about the growth industry that is upon us in this country.. IT IS TUTORING!!! Parents are paying top dollar to get their kids up to par in all acedemic areas. But wait,, didn't we start off with the most expensive public education system yet known to this country?? Are we not spending billions on public ed every year in the US?? Hooking up computers, and Ipods in the classroom? Importing kids from other neighborhoods so that our kids can have cultural diversity, hence a more rounded education?????? Hasn't this all been enough?? But now, our kids are behind so therefore they need MORE teachers/tutors???

How about less cultural diversity, less TV, less IPODs, and yes, less Internet for the sake of actually spending time STUDYING. Leave the baggy pants at home, hoemee,,,,,, and leave your bellybutton and thong buried under your skirt you hoe!!! Dress codes. Our public schools need dress codes... Oh, yes, I forgot, Cell phones. A plague on the people who made them so popular, and on those who push them onto our kids.

As far as the future goes, there isn't any in the United States. If I had to base my future on what walks the halls of our public schools, I am screwed too.

 

[Gem]

Working Man Wrote:

$63000/year which is based on 1260hrs is not a bad deal sport..Summers off. Every freakin holiday one can think of, and then some that aren't even on the books yet.. Yeah, right... They are underpaid..

Thats where you are wrong. First of all, when you take into consideration most teachers arrive at work at 7AM or earlier and leave work at 4PM or later...not to mention the fact that there are no breaks and at best, a 30 minute lunch (which is often taken with the students in order to get every usuable minute out of the day) those hours you came up with are laughable. Add to that the hours teachers spend before and after school at meetings and inservice sessions...then include the time spent at home after school and over the weekends on classroom prep and grading, etc. etc.

Actually...if you figure it out completely you will see that most dedicated teachers put in a full-time, year-round, job's worth of hours in 9 months. Then...during the summer, they get to go back to school to try to get enough hours of school credits to have their certificates remain current.

Not to mention the fact that the "average" salary you have their includes the teachers who have dedicated 20+ years to their profession...they bump up that "average" considerably...most teachers start at around 30,000 a year if lucky...and increase their salaries at about 1,000 a year if lucky.

The whole, "teachers get paid enough," line would be laughable if it wasn't so pathetic...teachers teach people to read and write...they inspire them to learn and give them what they will need to be successful in life...there isn't a more important job other than parent...and yet we pay football coaches, lawyers, and car salesmen more money.

The teachers who are making 60,000 or so a year are teachers who have put in the time...and helped educate hundreds or thousands of children. To imply that they are not worth that amount is ridiculous. You owe your ability to read, write, and formulate thoughts to your parents and your teachers. I hope you wouldn't treat your parents with the same lack of respect you have shown teachers this evening.

Asking that teachers receive pay commensurate with the importance of their work is not whiny...it is acknowledging that their job is professional, requires training, and is vitally important to the future of this nation. Perhaps if we began paying accordingly, we would start bringing in more qualified teachers...and perhaps parents would be a bit more likely to respect the position (rather than the parents who feel that the job is a crock...because "we get summers off!").

 

[Working Man]

Working Man Wrote:


Thats where you are wrong. First of all, when you take into consideration most teachers arrive at work at 7AM or earlier and leave work at 4PM or "

I will respond fully later..

No, teachers that I know are not putting in the hours you say.. THat is nonsense. And in the summer, they are away with their families to their cottages at the beach.. Not a minute to spend away from the kids?? Going to school in the summer, for the sake of the kids??? More like, mandated "Workshops" for those who need an argument of more money per year in salary....I have heard that a higher percentage of public k-12 teachers schedule non life threatening surgery during the school year, instead of for the summer months.. Any reason why??? Or,, in the snowbound areas, one of the TV shows hosted an special that talked about who stays home when the snow is too much for the teacher to go into school for class, but the classes have not been canceled. The schools have to hire temporary teachers, while the "regular" teacher stays home with her/his kids.. That takes balls.. How about paying the temp, the regular teacher's wages and benefits too???

Study Halls. What the hell is that?? Teachers grade their class papers during these periods.. For every one they get done during their regular "shift" they are not bringing home in the traditional fashion to grade at home..

NOw,, salaries for industrial arts, home ec,,,, art teachers. Do they not receive the same as those for history and math teachers??? Do the shop/home ec/art teachers load their cars every night with their student's projects and taking them home for in depth grading?? I think not! But they get the same salary as the other acedemic educators don't they?? And I am not saying they shouldn't, necessarily.

I will read the rest and respond accordingly.

 

[Working Man]

Working Man Wrote:

Asking that teachers receive pay commensurate with the importance of their work is not whiny...it is acknowledging that their job is professional, requires training, and is vitally important to the future of this nation. Perhaps if we began paying accordingly, we would start bringing in more qualified teachers...and perhaps parents would be a bit more likely to respect the position (rather than the parents who feel that the job is a crock...because "we get summers off!").

More BS...Does it take a ten horsepower motor to cut down a tree??? How much brains does it take to teach a kid to read and write?? Didn't the teachers of the 1920's convey their knowledge onto those who have turned out such elegant prose and ryme in years that followed??? YEs... ANd they did if for a lot less $$ than these cry babies you are defending too.. Did we not receive the benefits of the transistor, nuclear medicine, etc, from the teachers who worked for less, and bitched much less, at a time that it took less???? What you want is combat pay for the teachers who have to deal with the vermin that are allowed onto school ground. I could almost concede that.

The bottome line is that many of the educational requirements we have today, for the "teachers" were not in place back when because they were not needed. I doubt they are really needed today.. What we do need is less distraction in the educational system. That system includes the study time dedicated in the family's home, and the readiness/willingness for the student to learn.

Simply throwing money at the school teachers doesn't achieve the goal that is needed for this country's future. Like I said, tutoring is on the increase. If the kids have to get "taught" someplace other than in the traditional school setting, in addition to what we are paying for now 180days/year,, then,, there must be a bigger issue not being honestly addressed by you, and the public school teachers.

By the way,, even with the religious institutions kicking in subsidies, Catholic school students seem to out perform their public funded student counterparts, for less total dollars. However, those parochial educators don't usually make as much as their public fleeced counterparts.. Wouldn't it be more fair to pay more to ONLY those teachers who have proven to be better teachers, and not just because the have the years in seat to get it?

Now,, one other point about parochial schools. I would guess they don't have the homogenous mix of students that would grant a fair comparison,, or do they?? Could it be that the lack of dicipline, mentioned by one of the other site contributers also plays a significant role??? But, we pay so much in salaries to the teachers, and Administrators shouldn't they have figured out a good working system by 2006??? At what point in the history of the US did we get forced into high paid administrative help too?? SHow me where the expense has proven worth while???

SHow me where the increase in NON-English speaking students, has made this country, or its classrooms more sucessful. Show me where the need for dual/tripple school systems(for non English speaking students), imbeded within an English based, publicly funded schools system is creating more jobs, and more growth for the US economy???

 

[Gem]

Working Man,

You obviously have some sort of grudge or negative feelings about teachers....you seem to feel that they are getting something that they do not deserve or at the very least...do not deserve more than they are already getting.

While I respect your right to feel that way, you are simply wrong. You see teachers with summers off and think that their jobs are easy and they do not work as hard as other professionals. Your comments regarding "study halls" and the like prove conclusively to me that you have absolutely no knowledge of this topic.

You have many valid points and questions about public school systems in this country and why they have so many problems. You will not find me anywhere on any thread stating that the public education system in this country is anything other than horribly broken. I know however, that the teachers are at the absolute bottom of reasons for this failure.

At this point, there is little more to do than to say I will agree to disagree with you and part ways.

 

[no1tovote4]

The largest reason for the 'failure' of the public schools is the fact that there are three times, per capita, the amount of administrators while the per capita amount of educators has remained about the same over the past 20 years...

The sheer stunning amount of pay lost to actual teachers, and the foolish no-thinking rules, or should I say "Zero Tolerance" rules at the same time trying to mainstream people into regular classrooms that have no business there...