American Credibility

[dilloduck]

It's time for a show of hands. Who all has been damaged by the torture of the Iraqs and all the tremendous collateral damage that was predicted to ensue? I realize that the Iraqis who were photographed still feel it because the media (can you tell I got a thing against the media) feels a need to repeat this torture by showing the photos AD NAUSEUM. If shame was the pain they felt why keep inflicting it on them. Do we really need to make sure every sob in the world needs to know what some Iraqi looks like naked? It had been suggested that it will take 50 years to repair the damage so I wanna get a timeline going here so I can document out progress.

I need some verification that this damage was a direct result of tortured Iraqis and damage that results due to arab hatred prior to the incident are naturally void. Also void are those who are appalled that Americans could do such a thing. That damage is a result of your fairy tale visions that we are all incapable of such a thing.

If you are damaged because of your anger that these few make the rest of our troops look bad please tell me who it is that thinks all our troops are like the troops who did this.

Our troops morale is the responsibilty of their commanders who I feel can easily make the distintion between a soldier and bonehead. Have faith . Our men will not hang thier heads for long unless its to duck bullets.

Saudi Arabia is now asking opec to increase production----ooops thats a good thing-not damaging.

Threats by Osama and radical clerics? So whats new. The people who believed them before see us as the great Satan and this is something that a great Satan would do.

Now the radical clerics have more credibilty? I doubt it but if they get a few more converts are they going attack us? Thats void to. Its already been done PRIOR to the torture.

OK put on your thinking caps. I'm really open to here proof that Americas credibilty has been damaged so badly that we need to feel as bad as people say we should.


ok hands--do I see any hands??

STAY THE COURSE !

 

[DKSuddeth]

America's credibility has been somewhat damaged. I don't believe its permanent and I don't think it will take 50 years to fix. Some simple basic understanding of the differences between our two cultures can go a long way to fixing whats been done.

First off, this damage has been done by many members of ONE UNIT. Unless further investigation shows that this is a more widespread issue, thats where it stands. I'm ashamed because of the actions of that ONE UNIT, not our military. I will continue to watch our government to help ensure that the appropriate people are punished and that it never happens again.

Back to the differences between our cultures.

The middle east has a primarily shame culture. Unlike the american guilt culture, the shame culture has a very different value standard for what is damaging to them. Nudity of most sorts is not only offensive, but shameful. Thats their culture, generations of imposed behavior standards that define who they are. To use that 'shame' can be as damaging, if not more so, than physically abusing them. If you can't understand they why's, thats fine, just understand that it is.

Now, we americans look at these acts as 'frat pranks' or simple humiliation because we'd be little shamed by having to do that ourselves. Hell, given a choice between wearing womens underwear or enduring days at a time as a punching bag/tackling dummy/pain tolerance tester/how many broken bones does it take.....you get the picture, then guess what? I'm the next victoria's secret model. why? because I can except that humiliation over pain and quite possibly my life.

Maybe that has something to do with more sexual openness in this country, I don't know for sure, but thats the way it is and if we want to show these iraqi people that we liberated them because they deserve freedom from an oppressive regime, then marginalizing the abuse that has happened isn't going to be the way to do it.

 

[Bullypulpit]

The photos from Abu Ghraib gave the terrorists a moral victory they could never have achieved on their own. While the folks involved in that sordid affair are in no way representative of our armed forces, they don't need to be. Now, to the Muslim mind and especially to the radical fundamantalist Muslim all Americans are degenerates and perverts. What moral superiority we had has been lost, and to their eyes, America is no better than a rogue state.

America's credibility in the Middle East took a body blow when Dubbyuh gave Ariel Sharon carte blanche to do what he wanted to in Gaza and the West Bank. The events that transpired at Abu Ghraib delivered the KO to US credibility. And I think we shall find that those events have their genesis higher up the chain of command than many here would like to believe.

 

[Avatar4321]

I dont think our credibility has been damaged at all. I mean yeah there are some pictures out there of American soldiers doing bad stuff to prisoners but we all know they will be punished. meanwhile the Iraqis will see more Americans rebuilding their towns, serving their children etc. They will see the goodness of our troops.

 

[Annie]

The photos from Abu Ghraib gave the terrorists a moral victory they could never have achieved on their own. While the folks involved in that sordid affair are in no way representative of our armed forces, they don't need to be. Now, to the Muslim mind and especially to the radical fundamantalist Muslim all Americans are degenerates and perverts. What moral superiority we had has been lost, and to their eyes, America is no better than a rogue state.

America's credibility in the Middle East took a body blow when Dubbyuh gave Ariel Sharon carte blanche to do what he wanted to in Gaza and the West Bank. The events that transpired at Abu Ghraib delivered the KO to US credibility. And I think we shall find that those events have their genesis higher up the chain of command than many here would like to believe.

Congratulations Bully, you've written yourself into anti-Semite history.

 

[pegwinn]

Since the Berg Killing I no longer care about credibility. So long as we track down an punish the people who perpetrate terrorism, I don't care who likes us or not.

Instead of ranting here, read the other posts I've written since the Berg Killing. I guess the it's true. If you want to slaughter a pig properly you must get into the mud.

 

[Avatar4321]

I seriously have to question how the terrorists won a moral victory with this prison problem. I mean they turned around and slaughtered someone which took the entire focus off the prison and onto their more grevious atrocities. yeah thats brilliant. if they wanted a victory with the prison thing they should have played up the out rage. instead they do something worse and take attention away. We are dealing with frickin geniuses here.

 

[dilloduck]

UBL said that America was an easy target and he is so right. Pick a country that divided against itself and half of them will assist the enemy. and what is this shit that gets thrown around--" I support our troops but disagree with the President" The president is the commander of these troops. I dare you to go tell our troops that thier commmader is full of shit. What a fucking wussy way to lie your way to patriotism. Mcarthur was so right to condemn having polticians determin how a war is fought

 

[freeandfun1]

Originally posted by dilloduck
. . . . and what is this shit that gets thrown around--" I support our troops but disagree with the President" The president is the commander of these troops. I dare you to go tell our troops that thier commmader is full of shit. . . .

Nicely put!

 

[Bullypulpit]

Originally posted by dilloduck
UBL said that America was an easy target and he is so right. Pick a country that divided against itself and half of them will assist the enemy. and what is this shit that gets thrown around--" I support our troops but disagree with the President" The president is the commander of these troops. I dare you to go tell our troops that thier commmader is full of shit. What a fucking wussy way to lie your way to patriotism. Mcarthur was so right to condemn having polticians determin how a war is fought

Yeah, McArthur was right about politicians and war....Look at what the politicians have done with this one. And as far as the troops thinking their commander is full of shit, well every soldier, sailor, airman and marine thinks most anyone above E-7 is full of shit.

 

[pegwinn]

Originally posted by Bullypulpit
Yeah, McArthur was right about politicians and war....Look at what the politicians have done with this one. And as far as the troops thinking their commander is full of shit, well every soldier, sailor, airman and marine thinks most anyone above E-7 is full of shit.

Bully, you are so full of shit your eyes are a deep dark brown.
I guess you have to love the internet where you can spout the kind of garbage that would get your ass kicked in any self respecting bar in the world.

 

[HGROKIT]

Crap happens in war - both good and bad. If one was already agianst America, then this really has no impact on our credibility; and in this case, I really don't give a rats ass (that includes our liberal media).

To our "allies" that find this act offensive I would offer "what is your part in this little soire we call Iraq"? I see allot of sideline commentary when the chips are down; little kudos when things go well and allot of back stabbing in between.

Irrespective of anyone's opinion outside of our country - we will keep pursuing the bad guys (that is why GW will win, as an aside), and as a benefit to the American bashers, make this planet a slightly safer place. We will not go the way of our Spanish "friends"; We will not embrace the radical factions of Islam for political expediency as the French and FINALLY (I hope), we will no longer pander to the archaic ineffective institution often called the U.N.

Yeah a couple ugly Americans screwed up; we've never claimed perfection. The Iraqi prisoners will get over it. We have aplogized. We are taking steps to identify, punish and correct. There are bigger issues of concern to the U.S. and world at large. This issue has received far more press and energy than it deserves.

That being said - credibility is only as credible as the outside perceives it to be - we cannot control others perceptions; we can only stand on our merits and the chips fall where they may.

Sooooo...for those that stand with us



Those that don"t

:fu2:

 

[Bullypulpit]

Originally posted by pegwinn


Bully, you are so full of shit your eyes are a deep dark brown.
I guess you have to love the internet where you can spout the kind of garbage that would get your ass kicked in any self respecting bar in the world.

Well since you obviously know everything, and anyone who disagrees with you is absolutely and utterly wrong, there's simply no reason for my not falling upon the ground and worshipfully drinking in every word you write in slavish acceptance of your noble stature and godlike visage.

 

[pegwinn]

Originally posted by pegwinn
Bully, you are so full of shit your eyes are a deep dark brown.
I guess you have to love the internet where you can spout the kind of garbage that would get your ass kicked in any self respecting bar in the world.

Originally posted by Bullypulpit
Well since you obviously know everything, and anyone who disagrees with you is absolutely and utterly wrong, there's simply no reason for my not falling upon the ground and worshipfully drinking in every word you write in slavish acceptance of your noble stature and godlike visage.

Good,
You may begin

 

[scubamike]

Since the Berg Killing I no longer care about credibility. So long as we track down an punish the people who perpetrate terrorism, I don't care who likes us or not.

Why does the killing of one person create such passion for vengence?

Since the start of the war:
Americans killed in Iraq: about 700
Iraqis killed in Iraq: about 11,000

So much loss creates much desire for revenge, by both sides. But Americans seem to consider the loss of one of theirs to be 100x worse than the loss of one Iraqi life.

 

[insein]

Originally posted by scubamike
Why does the killing of one person create such passion for vengence?

Since the start of the war:
Americans killed in Iraq: about 700
Iraqis killed in Iraq: about 11,000

So much loss creates much desire for revenge, by both sides. But Americans seem to consider the loss of one of theirs to be 100x worse than the loss of one Iraqi life.

First of all, how do you figure that is? Tell me where anyone said any death wasnt a waste except for the terrorists and terorists appeasers lives.

Innocent iraqis being killed is horrible. But to say that America has caused great hardship on these people is a disgrace to what these people have gone through for over 30 years. Millions of iraqis dead or disappeared just for disagreeing with their government's ideals. 11,000 or whatever number it may be died in the liberation of their country. Those same 11,000 along with who knows how many others would have been dead within another year had Saddam been allowed to remain in power.

 

[scubamike]

Originally posted by insein
Millions of iraqis dead or disappeared just for disagreeing with their government's ideals.
Those same 11,000 along with who knows how many others would have been dead within another year had Saddam been allowed to remain in power.

Millions?!?!? Supporting evidence? Maybe 100's of thousands over 30 years, sure. But I haven't heard of millions. And at 10,000 a year under the Americans equals 300,000 over 30 years so the rate would be similar.

And the "insurgents", etc are those who disagree with American rule.
Besides, estimates of over 500,000 dead due to UN sanctions also suck for the Iraqi people. Sanctions do not hurt those in power, only the poor.

 

[insein]

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/en/doc/2003-12/09/content_288443.htm

The U.S.-led occupation authority in Iraq has said that at least 300,000 people are buried in mass graves in Iraq. Human rights officials put the number closer to 500,000, and some Iraqi political parties estimate more than 1 million were executed.


Without exhumations of those graves, it is impossible to confirm a figure. Scientists told The Associated Press during a recent investigation that they have confirmed 41 mass graves on a list of suspected sites that currently includes 270 locations.


Forensic teams will begin to exhume four of those graves next month in search of evidence for a new tribunal, expected to be established this week, that will try members of the former regime for crimes against humanity and genocide. More graves will later be added to the list.


But nobody expects all the mass graves to be exhumed, and nobody expects to ever know the full number of Iraqis executed by their government.

Sounds far worse than 11,000 accidental deaths through liberation.

 

[scubamike]

Originally posted by insein

Sounds far worse than 11,000 accidental deaths through liberation.

Actually it sounds pretty much like I put it. Casualty rate for the Iraqis is about the same as under Saddam. According the the Americans anyway. And they will probably be the most correct as they will want to show how bad it was without being called for exaggeration.
Human rights groups tend to over-estimate to a degree, it helps their cause, and politicians are well known for stretching "the truth" to breaking point.

 

[insein]

Originally posted by scubamike
Actually it sounds pretty much like I put it. Casualty rate for the Iraqis is about the same as under Saddam. According the the Americans anyway. And they will probably be the most correct as they will want to show how bad it was without being called for exaggeration.
Human rights groups tend to over-estimate to a degree, it helps their cause, and politicians are well known for stretching "the truth" to breaking point.

Definitely wouldnt say the same. 30 years 500,000 confirmed dead. Possibly upwards of 1,000,000 dead. Thats not counting the other hundreds of thousands raped, tortured, dismembered and still alive to tell about it (unless of course their tongue was cut out). Comparing Casualties of war to systematic genocide is disengenuos.