Alright, I Don't Understand, What Is It That Conservatives Want?

[Coloradomtnman]

I realized the other day that I have been debating with conservatives on the USMB and else where, and yet, I only think I know what conservatives want, but I have never had it actually laid out for me. I'll list what I think Conservatism stands for and why, and you conservatives correct me and add anything I might've left out. Please be prepared to answer questions and defend your points.

And I would welcome if a conservative did this for liberals. It could be a great way to have an open dialogue and gain a greater understanding of the other side's perspective and motives.

Please refrain from angry posts, name-calling, and other unhelpful communication techniques (or lack thereof).
*****************************************************************

Fiscal Conservatism:

1. Lower taxes, because you should keep what you earn and there are many lazy people who simply want or live off of government hand-outs; and, to keep the economy strong.

2. Less government intrusion in our personal lives, because you know how to live your life and the government should have nothing to do with it.

3. Less governmental regulations on business practices, because that's the foundation of free market capitalism.

4. Abolishment of Welfare and Medicaid, see #1.

5. Privatized Social Security or its abolishment, because you know better how to spend and save your money.

6. Broadened opportunity to attain wealth, see #3.

7. The Federal government should have nothing to do with education, it requires more taxes, see #1.

Social Conservatism

1. Abortion criminalized, because its murder (per the Bible).

2. A government based on Christian Values, because the founding fathers were Christians and that's the morality on which they founded the nation.

3. Homosexuality banned, because the Bible says so.

4. Affirmative action discontinued, because black people are playing the race card and not really suffering as badly as they project. And, ultimately, affirmative action hurts all of the races.

5. Stricter legal sentences for criminals and drug users, to deter and lower the crime rate.

Other:

1. Strong Defense, because otherwise we would be invaded or destroyed, or our allies would.

2. To Maintain the US's role as the world economic and military superpower, see Fiscal Conservatism #6 and Other #1.

3. Right to bear arms, to defend yourself against criminals and to have the opportunity to revolt against the government if you thought it was necessary.

4. Conservatives would mostly agree that: The way things are in American government are mostly good, except for over-spending, activist judges, over taxation of the wealthy and of business, and lenient jail terms.

5. Conservatives would mostly agree that: The way things are in American society are mostly wrong, because of teaching wrong things about Christianity in public schools, liberal media bias, liberal immorality, and widespread crime and drug use.

I know there's more but I can't think of'em. Alright, have at!

 

[Red Dawn]

Alright, I Don't Understand, What Is It That Conservatives Want?

Let me be brief and simple about this.

A federal government that does virtually nothing except maintain a massive standing military.



I used to think they believed the federal government should also enforce criminal laws and civil rights. But, I've seen too much cheerleading for torture, and for diminishing the fourth amendment and habeus corpus to buy that BS anymore.

 

[Sinatra]

Alright, I Don't Understand, What Is It That Conservatives Want?

Let me be brief and simple about this.

A federal government that does virtually nothing except maintain a massive standing military.



I used to think they believed the federal government should also enforce criminal laws and civil rights. But, I've seen too much cheerleading for torture, and for diminishing the fourth amendment and habeus corpus to buy that BS anymore.

Swayze would kick your ass. Even drag-Swayze would kick your ass...

 

[Coloradomtnman]

Alright, I Don't Understand, What Is It That Conservatives Want?

Let me be brief and simple about this.

A federal government that does virtually nothing except maintain a massive standing military.

I used to think they believed the federal government should also enforce criminal laws and civil rights. But, I've seen too much cheerleading for torture, and for diminishing the fourth amendment and habeus corpus to buy that BS anymore.

What about state and local governments? Do you think they should take over all of the other duties normally held by the Fed? Such as Border Patrol, IRS, national regulations, etc.?

And you think the Fed shouldn't enforce the Constitution?

 

[WillowTree]

Alright, I Don't Understand, What Is It That Conservatives Want?

Let me be brief and simple about this.

A federal government that does virtually nothing except maintain a massive standing military.



I used to think they believed the federal government should also enforce criminal laws and civil rights. But, I've seen too much cheerleading for torture, and for diminishing the fourth amendment and habeus corpus to buy that BS anymore.

I wondered who would be the thread killer. Didn't take you long to close the dialogue.. Thank goodness it wasn't a conservative.

 

[editec]

I think that's a fairly decent desciption of what people who identify themselves as conservatives want.

Of course, as written, much of what those people want most liberals want, too.

The devil is in the details of how we arrive at those happy states.

As to "social conservatives"?

What a terribly misnamed group that is.

They are not remotely conservative. They are reactional zealots seeking to impose their (usally faith based) value systems (which have little to do with anything governments should be involved in, frankly) on all of us.

 

[johnrocks]

It's pretty simple for me. Less government intervention, both foreign and domestic. This means a lot more freedom as well as a lot more personal responsibility and with that comes some messiness, some will fall through and get hurt,some will lose their homes,some will not get full healthcare but we will be more free, less taxed and we can then get down to actually helping our fellow man that truly deserves to be helped and to hell with those who want to play the system on both sides.

 

[jsnforce]

I think that's a fairly decent desciption of what people who identify themselves as conservatives want.

Of course, as written, much of what those people want most liberals want, too.

The devil is in the details of how we arrive at those happy states.

As to "social conservatives"?

What a terribly misnamed group that is.

They are not remotely conservative. They are reactional zealots seeking to impose their (usally faith based) value systems (which have little to do with anything governments should be involved in, frankly) on all of us.

I agree. However for the most part, religious values are benevolent in nature. It's the zealots that ruin it for all. Some people argue that all conservative thought is rooted in religion, such as the stance on abortion and capital punishment, but I think that's no reason to ignore it.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

It's pretty simple for me. Less government intervention, both foreign and domestic. This means a lot more freedom as well as a lot more personal responsibility and with that comes some messiness, some will fall through and get hurt,some will lose their homes,some will not get full healthcare but we will be more free, less taxed and we can then get down to actually helping our fellow man that truly deserves to be helped and to hell with those who want to play the system on both sides.

I'm sorry, John, but being a liberal it isn't clear to me what you mean exactly by government intervention. Could you elaborate that for me?

And I from my perspective, it doesn't seem like we can trust private business or that it is likely that invidivuals, without federal regulations, to support medicaid or welfare. And, having come to politics in the Bush Jr. era, I don't see how we lower taxes and maintain the level of federal programs that help with poverty. How do you think we can lower taxes and yet help the elderly who survive solely on social security to get the medical treatment and medicines they need, and keep poverty at a low level and thereby crime at a low level and society as a whole at a higher level (because of better rates of high school and college graduations and lower rates of alcoholism, etc.)?

What do you think about all US citizens having access to affordable health care? What about children having health care?

And how do you mean that we will be more free? Do you mean as in business regulations, social liberties (such as abortion rights or gay rights) or both or am I totally off-track?

 

[Annie]

I realized the other day that I have been debating with conservatives on the USMB and else where, and yet, I only think I know what conservatives want, but I have never had it actually laid out for me. I'll list what I think Conservatism stands for and why, and you conservatives correct me and add anything I might've left out. Please be prepared to answer questions and defend your points.

And I would welcome if a conservative did this for liberals. It could be a great way to have an open dialogue and gain a greater understanding of the other side's perspective and motives.

Please refrain from angry posts, name-calling, and other unhelpful communication techniques (or lack thereof).
*****************************************************************

Fiscal Conservatism:

1. Lower taxes, because you should keep what you earn and there are many lazy people who simply want or live off of government hand-outs; and, to keep the economy strong.

Yes, we should keep as much as possible of what we earn, but not the dependent clause. I don't think everyone the government helps is 'lazy' or the rest. However, I do think the government intentionally or not, adds caveats that trap people. I much prefer private organizations that are located near the person, get to know the person, and have a sense of the community they are living. If not private, local-village, city, or county, for the same reasons as preferring private. Are people willing to support? Never has been a problem. Now with what's happening, yes, I do expect charitable donations to drop like a rock. The table has been set.

2. Less government intrusion in our personal lives, because you know how to live your life and the government should have nothing to do with it.

Indeed. I really do not care what adults do within the confines of private walls. Children? If there appears to be abuse or neglect, the state has an interest. Not the federal government.

3. Less governmental regulations on business practices, because that's the foundation of free market capitalism.

Depends upon the business, but as a general rule, yes.

4. Abolishment of Welfare and Medicaid, see #1.

see response

5. Privatized Social Security or its abolishment, because you know better how to spend and save your money.

Not without notice, nor without 'choice' for anyone that's contributed. That is called 'theft'. (See McNuggets problems)

6. Broadened opportunity to attain wealth, see #3.

no, just get out of the way.

7. The Federal government should have nothing to do with education, it requires more taxes, see #1.

Indeed. State and local concern.

Social Conservatism

1. Abortion criminalized, because its murder (per the Bible). [/quote] Let the courts and conscience sort it out.

2. A government based on Christian Values, because the founding fathers were Christians and that's the morality on which they founded the nation.

The government should not endorse any religion.

3. Homosexuality banned, because the Bible says so.

Nope, just no extra rights.

4. Affirmative action discontinued, because black people are playing the race card and not really suffering as badly as they project. And, ultimately, affirmative action hurts all of the races.

Nope to the first sentence and intents; yes to the second.

5. Stricter legal sentences for criminals and drug users, to deter and lower the crime rate.

Prohibition worked wonderfully, as do the drug laws.

Other:

1. Strong Defense, because otherwise we would be invaded or destroyed, or our allies would.

Yes, not because of 'otherwise' to ensure the issue doesn't appear.

2. To Maintain the US's role as the world economic and military superpower, see Fiscal Conservatism #6 and Other #1.

I think we are losing the first, the second will fall along.

3. Right to bear arms, to defend yourself against criminals and to have the opportunity to revolt against the government if you thought it was necessary.

Indeed.

4. Conservatives would mostly agree that: The way things are in American government are mostly good, except for over-spending, activist judges, over taxation of the wealthy and of business, and lenient jail terms.

Disagree, I find most things the feds do ill reasoned and worse implemented.

5. Conservatives would mostly agree that: The way things are in American society are mostly wrong, because of teaching wrong things about Christianity in public schools, liberal media bias, liberal immorality, and widespread crime and drug use.

That's just warped.

I know there's more but I can't think of'em. Alright, have at!

Those are my responses. Considering the questions and phraseology, I wouldn't be able to hope to come up with a list like the above.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Conservatives want to be happy. They think happiness is all about themselves.

 

[dilloduck]

Conservatives want to be happy. They think happiness is all about themselves.

BBBZZZZZZZZ---Wrong--go the the end of the line

 

[del]

Conservatives want to be happy. They think happiness is all about themselves.

BBBZZZZZZZZ---Wrong--go the the end of the line

but, but.........it was so cosmic.

 

[dilloduck]

Conservatives want to be happy. They think happiness is all about themselves.

BBBZZZZZZZZ---Wrong--go the the end of the line

but, but.........it was so cosmic.

but not all inclusive

 

[Sinatra]

Concentrated power has always been the enemy of liberty.

-Reagan

 

[Annie]

BBBZZZZZZZZ---Wrong--go the the end of the line

but, but.........it was so cosmic.

but not all inclusive

She was confusing conservatives with wannabe Buddhists?

 

[dilloduck]

but, but.........it was so cosmic.

but not all inclusive

She was confusing conservatives with wannabe Buddhists?

I think she's searching for some abuse she missed out on over the weekend.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

Yes, we should keep as much as possible of what we earn, but not the dependent clause. I don't think everyone the government helps is 'lazy' or the rest. However, I do think the government intentionally or not, adds caveats that trap people. I much prefer private organizations that are located near the person, get to know the person, and have a sense of the community they are living. If not private, local-village, city, or county, for the same reasons as preferring private. Are people willing to support? Never has been a problem. Now with what's happening, yes, I do expect charitable donations to drop like a rock. The table has been set.

So, let me see if I got this straight. You think we should abolish welfare and medicaid, and instead, allow private, non-profits which run on charitable donations to operate in the same capacity but at a more local level? What about welfare or medicaid at a state or local level?

Nope, just no extra rights.

So you believe that homosexuality is a choice?

4. Conservatives would mostly agree that: The way things are in American government are mostly good, except for over-spending, activist judges, over taxation of the wealthy and of business, and lenient jail terms. Disagree, I find most things the feds do ill reasoned and worse implemented.

This is just from my perspective and, I thought, the weakest speculative item on the list. Do you think most Conservatives feel the way you do about the government?

5. Conservatives would mostly agree that: The way things are in American society are mostly wrong, because of teaching wrong things about Christianity in public schools, liberal media bias, liberal immorality, and widespread crime and drug use.That's just warped.

Like I said in the previous remark, I was trying to ascertain the conservative mind set, which is difficult for me because I am basing my opinions on my obviously biased perspective. Would you say most conservatives agree with my last listed issue or am I way off base?

Those are my responses. Considering the questions and phraseology, I wouldn't be able to hope to come up with a list like the above.

Porque no? I don't think I understand your last comment...

Thanks for the item by item reply. From my point of view I would say you categorize yourself as a moderate conservative or a fiscal conservative? Right? I just want a point of reference to better gauge the full spectrum of conservatism.

Thanks again!

 

[Annie]

Yes, we should keep as much as possible of what we earn, but not the dependent clause. I don't think everyone the government helps is 'lazy' or the rest. However, I do think the government intentionally or not, adds caveats that trap people. I much prefer private organizations that are located near the person, get to know the person, and have a sense of the community they are living. If not private, local-village, city, or county, for the same reasons as preferring private. Are people willing to support? Never has been a problem. Now with what's happening, yes, I do expect charitable donations to drop like a rock. The table has been set.

So, let me see if I got this straight. You think we should abolish welfare and medicaid, and instead, allow private, non-profits which run on charitable donations to operate in the same capacity but at a more local level? What about welfare or medicaid at a state or local level?

You forgot what I said about 'if not', but I'm certain that was accidental. As you said, preconceived ideas on your part.

Nope, just no extra rights.

So you believe that homosexuality is a choice?

Not for the main.

This is just from my perspective and, I thought, the weakest speculative item on the list. Do you think most Conservatives feel the way you do about the government?

Conservatives? Yes. Extremists? No. BTW, where do you put yourself on the liberal scale?

5. Conservatives would mostly agree that: The way things are in American society are mostly wrong, because of teaching wrong things about Christianity in public schools, liberal media bias, liberal immorality, and widespread crime and drug use.

That's just warped.

fixed that for ya.

Like I said in the previous remark, I was trying to ascertain the conservative mind set, which is difficult for me because I am basing my opinions on my obviously biased perspective. Would you say most conservatives agree with my last listed issue or am I way off base?

Those are my responses. Considering the questions and phraseology, I wouldn't be able to hope to come up with a list like the above.

Porque no? I don't think I understand your last comment... Sorry that wasn't clear. One, I try not too categorize all from one. Two, if I could get into the mindset implied by your prejudice and inverse it, I'd be doing my first. I can't.

Thanks for the item by item reply. From my point of view I would say you categorize yourself as a moderate conservative or a fiscal conservative? Right? I just want a point of reference to better gauge the full spectrum of conservatism.

Thanks again!

Probably a conservative with libertarian leanings. Sorry about the stray quote marks, but I'd probably mess it further trying to fix.

 

[Meister]

It's pretty simple for me. Less government intervention, both foreign and domestic. This means a lot more freedom as well as a lot more personal responsibility and with that comes some messiness, some will fall through and get hurt,some will lose their homes,some will not get full healthcare but we will be more free, less taxed and we can then get down to actually helping our fellow man that truly deserves to be helped and to hell with those who want to play the system on both sides.

I'm sorry, John, but being a liberal it isn't clear to me what you mean exactly by government intervention. Could you elaborate that for me?

And I from my perspective, it doesn't seem like we can trust private business or that it is likely that invidivuals, without federal regulations, to support medicaid or welfare. And, having come to politics in the Bush Jr. era, I don't see how we lower taxes and maintain the level of federal programs that help with poverty. How do you think we can lower taxes and yet help the elderly who survive solely on social security to get the medical treatment and medicines they need, and keep poverty at a low level and thereby crime at a low level and society as a whole at a higher level (because of better rates of high school and college graduations and lower rates of alcoholism, etc.)?

What do you think about all US citizens having access to affordable health care? What about children having health care?

And how do you mean that we will be more free? Do you mean as in business regulations, social liberties (such as abortion rights or gay rights) or both or am I totally off-track?

I would like to add my 2 cents in this thread. There are areas in the private sector that do need to be regulated...not over regulated. There are areas in the private sector that doesn't need to be regulated at all, that the federal government seems to want to over step its authority. You mention medicare, and welfare, there needs to be tight oversite by the government to advert abuse, which they really have weak oversites right now. Welfare as it stands, should be a temporary solution and not a career. Get welfare recipients jobs, and the poverty level begins to decline. Again, there must be tight oversite by the government.
You talk about the lower taxes under the Bush administration. Bush was wrong in a number of ways. There should have been tax cuts, and spending cuts working concurrently. We would have had more revenue, and more taxes on the revenue. There could have been more money for the social programs...not sure of which ones your talking about.
I believe that the government is part of the solution to healthcare for the uninsured and the elderly. I believe that tax credits for the uninsured, and tax credits for the insurance companies meshed together would work in this area, and keep it in the private sector. If the governments has universal healthcare..there won't be enough oversite, and billions will be wasted in no time at all. I don't think the government is qualified to oversee the trillions it would take, nor do I trust them to do such.
Leave education to the state governments, who knows better what the problems are in their own states?
Our government is not going to make this a utopia nation. That's impossible no matter how much money with throw into spending. Lets keep this real.