African Presence in Pre-Columbian Times

[Asclepias]

Why is it disturbing to Afrocentrics for ancient Sub-Saharan Africa to have been an undeveloped region? If the region south of the Sahara had been so develop in ancient times, where are the ruined cities? Where are the example fine ancient stone works? Where are the ancient coins depicted ancient black rulers?. Where are the ancient bronze artifacts? Where are the examples ancient Sub-Saharan writings? Why are all these things centered around the Mediterranean Sea.

Afrocentrics are probably disturbed because what you are saying is a lie. There are ruined cities. There are stoneworks. There is sub-saharan writing. The reason these things appear to be confined to the mediterranean is because you just haven't bothered to research it. Another thing that may disturb them is the assumption that what white people consider civilization is their opinion and not the end all be all. It would be like someone telling you the only way you can be considered a real man is if you were Black.

 

[longly]

Why is it disturbing to Afrocentrics for ancient Sub-Saharan Africa to have been an undeveloped region? If the region south of the Sahara had been so develop in ancient times, where are the ruined cities? Where are the example fine ancient stone works? Where are the ancient coins depicted ancient black rulers?. Where are the ancient bronze artifacts? Where are the examples ancient Sub-Saharan writings? Why are all these things centered around the Mediterranean Sea.

Afrocentrics are probably disturbed because what you are saying is a lie. There are ruined cities. There are stoneworks. There is sub-saharan writing. The reason these things appear to be confined to the mediterranean is because you just haven't bothered to research it. Another thing that may disturb them is the assumption that what white people consider civilization is their opinion and not the end all be all. It would be like someone telling you the only way you can be considered a real man is if you were Black.

The word civilization is not a pejorative, but merely a label. I am sure you know that it denotes a society that has reached a certain level of cultural, technical and societal development. How is that insulting to anyone anywhere?

If there are ancients ruins in sub-Saharan Africa they would be easily visible; building stones produced by skilled stone masons are not easily over looked. Nature does not produce large rocks of uniform size with smooth sides and square corners.

 

[Asclepias]

Why is it disturbing to Afrocentrics for ancient Sub-Saharan Africa to have been an undeveloped region? If the region south of the Sahara had been so develop in ancient times, where are the ruined cities? Where are the example fine ancient stone works? Where are the ancient coins depicted ancient black rulers?. Where are the ancient bronze artifacts? Where are the examples ancient Sub-Saharan writings? Why are all these things centered around the Mediterranean Sea.

Afrocentrics are probably disturbed because what you are saying is a lie. There are ruined cities. There are stoneworks. There is sub-saharan writing. The reason these things appear to be confined to the mediterranean is because you just haven't bothered to research it. Another thing that may disturb them is the assumption that what white people consider civilization is their opinion and not the end all be all. It would be like someone telling you the only way you can be considered a real man is if you were Black.

The word civilization is not a pejorative, but merely a label. I am sure you know that it denotes a society that has reached a certain level of cultural, technical and societal development. How is that insulting to anyone anywhere?

If there are ancients ruins in sub-Saharan Africa they would be easily visible; building stones produced by skilled stone masons are not easily over looked. Nature does not produce large rocks of uniform size with smooth sides and square corners.

Its insulting because white people made it up without consulting anyone. Nobody cares what a white person thinks is civilization. That determination is made by the people that created their version of what a white person calls civilization. Its presumptuous to assume white people have any clue. They were eating each other while black people were building Egypt. if they knew what civilization was why, is Greece the first European one?

I believe I mentioned there are some still left. Those civilizations are so old that they are off the radar for whites. Just because whites have not found this out is your problem to deal with. I don't seek validation from what white people think. However, I dont see what this has to do with the Egyptians being Black and your lack of any kind of evidence they were white. Where is your evidence? I get the sense you are either afraid to present it or you have nothing. Be a man and show your proof or I will have to consider you a troll and unworthy of discussing things with. We cant move on until you show me something regarding white Egyptians prior to Persia invading Egypt.

 

[longly]

Afrocentrics are probably disturbed because what you are saying is a lie. There are ruined cities. There are stoneworks. There is sub-saharan writing. The reason these things appear to be confined to the mediterranean is because you just haven't bothered to research it. Another thing that may disturb them is the assumption that what white people consider civilization is their opinion and not the end all be all. It would be like someone telling you the only way you can be considered a real man is if you were Black.

The word civilization is not a pejorative, but merely a label. I am sure you know that it denotes a society that has reached a certain level of cultural, technical and societal development. How is that insulting to anyone anywhere?

If there are ancients ruins in sub-Saharan Africa they would be easily visible; building stones produced by skilled stone masons are not easily over looked. Nature does not produce large rocks of uniform size with smooth sides and square corners.

Its insulting because white people made it up without consulting anyone. Nobody cares what a white person thinks is civilization. That determination is made by the people that created their version of what a white person calls civilization. Its presumptuous to assume white people have any clue. They were eating each other while black people were building Egypt. if they knew what civilization was why, is Greece the first European one?

.

What do you think civilization means? I does not mean all things good. In some ways primitive societies were better. Civilization does not always mean a humane society. Both the ancient Romans and the Aztecs civilizations where brutal societies. A Roman slave master during the early empire was not legally or socially restricted any way in what the could do to his slaves. And by the way, the few black slaves they had were most likely treated very well; they were too expensive to risk with hard labor where as the German and Celts had little more value than a dog. The Aztecs honored their war captives, as well as some their own people some times, by sacrificing them to their gods whether they wanted their hears cut out of their chest or not.

I am not a troll; I have no desire to upset anyone; I just like anthropology. I am out of time I will try to respond to the rest of your post later.

 

[westwall]

Trailer parks won't help you. You'd have to go to the "inner cities" to find that kind of ignorance. Better yet, try some black message boards. You might get a smatter of a following. I never thought this to anyone, but trailer parks and this site are a bit too high-brow for you and your message. Here, you're just pissing in the wind.

Thanks for the warning but several people of different ethnicities have already thanked me for letting them know about things like this. Its reaching its intended audience. Cave apes like you do not have to participate in acquiring knowledge.

I am not a descendant of sub-Saharan Africans. I'm sorry that your heritage is one of subjugation and little achievement, but your attempts to purloin the accomplishments of others is pathetic. If it's any conciliation, others experienced slavery and little achievement, though not to the extent of your fore-bearers. I believe in giving credit where credit is due, so thanks for the watermelon.

The word you're attempting to use is CONSOLATION.

Conciliation means...

1. To overcome the distrust or animosity of; appease.

2. To regain or try to regain (friendship or goodwill) by pleasant behavior.

3. To make or attempt to make compatible; reconcile.



If you're going to try and act like an arrogant ass may I suggest you use the ENGLISH LANGUAGE properly while doing so.

It makes you look like an ignorant jackass when you don't

 

[westwall]

I am not a descendant of sub-Saharan Africans. I'm sorry that your heritage is one of subjugation and little achievement, but your attempts to purloin the accomplishments of others is pathetic. If it's any conciliation, others experienced slavery and little achievement, though not to the extent of your fore-bearers. I believe in giving credit where credit is due, so thanks for the watermelon.

I know you are not sub saharan. That why I called you a cave ape. I apologize that I left out melanin deprived, inbred, and feral so you would have no doubt i was referring to white racists like you.

Whatever. My ancestors were not slaves. In fact they were building edifices like the Acropolis and developing philosophy while yours were living in trees and selling each other as slaves. All tha, of course is still happening, except they've progressed to lean-tos and huts. Sucks, eh?

So, in addition to your ignorance of the English language you are likewise ignorant of the history of slavery under the ancient Greeks. How unsurprising. Bet you didn't know that homosexuality was considered normal either....

"Sklaven im Antiken Griechenland

A free man?—There is no such thing! All men are slaves; some, slaves of money; some, of chance; others are forced, either by mass opinion, or the threatening law, to act against their nature. Euripides, Hecuba. The word slave comes from Slav, the name of a group of Eastern European peoples. In antiquity, Germanic tribes captured Slavs and sold them to the Romans as slaves ( (from Interesting Facts )


Slavery in Ancient Greece

 

[westwall]

I know you are not sub saharan. That why I called you a cave ape. I apologize that I left out melanin deprived, inbred, and feral so you would have no doubt i was referring to white racists like you.

Whatever. My ancestors were not slaves. In fact they were building edifices like the Acropolis and developing philosophy while yours were living in trees and selling each other as slaves. All tha, of course is still happening, except they've progressed to lean-tos and huts. Sucks, eh?

Yes your ancestors were enslaved. Your ancestors built nothing until after they were taught by Africans. Greece didn't become a country unil 800 BC. Most of their gods were Black. Then they lost their minds and forgot their history which the Moors had to save for them. Dont you wonder why the other white races despise you? They dont even think you are really white.

Actually the Romans saved the Greek history.

 

[westwall]

Why is it disturbing to Afrocentrics for ancient Sub-Saharan Africa to have been an undeveloped region? If the region south of the Sahara had been so develop in ancient times, where are the ruined cities? Where are the example fine ancient stone works? Where are the ancient coins depicted ancient black rulers?. Where are the ancient bronze artifacts? Where are the examples ancient Sub-Saharan writings? Why are all these things centered around the Mediterranean Sea.

Afrocentrics are probably disturbed because what you are saying is a lie. There are ruined cities. There are stoneworks. There is sub-saharan writing. The reason these things appear to be confined to the mediterranean is because you just haven't bothered to research it. Another thing that may disturb them is the assumption that what white people consider civilization is their opinion and not the end all be all. It would be like someone telling you the only way you can be considered a real man is if you were Black.

The word civilization is not a pejorative, but merely a label. I am sure you know that it denotes a society that has reached a certain level of cultural, technical and societal development. How is that insulting to anyone anywhere?

If there are ancients ruins in sub-Saharan Africa they would be easily visible; building stones produced by skilled stone masons are not easily over looked. Nature does not produce large rocks of uniform size with smooth sides and square corners.

Look up Great Zimbabwe and be educated....

 

[Asclepias]

Whatever. My ancestors were not slaves. In fact they were building edifices like the Acropolis and developing philosophy while yours were living in trees and selling each other as slaves. All tha, of course is still happening, except they've progressed to lean-tos and huts. Sucks, eh?

Yes your ancestors were enslaved. Your ancestors built nothing until after they were taught by Africans. Greece didn't become a country unil 800 BC. Most of their gods were Black. Then they lost their minds and forgot their history which the Moors had to save for them. Dont you wonder why the other white races despise you? They dont even think you are really white.

Actually the Romans saved the Greek history.

Do you have a source? The below is basically what I know about it.

Transmission of the Classics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In the Western Provinces (what today is considered the Western Europe's heartland), the collapsing Roman empire lost many Greek manuscripts which were not preserved by monasteries] But even there scribes sometimes recycled old parchment, scraping off old texts in order to create new books.[11] After a while, only a few monasteries in the west had Greek works, and even fewer of them copied these works (mainly the Irish).[12] Irish monks had been taught by Greek and Latin missionaries who probably had brought Greek texts with them.

Arab logicians had inherited Greek ideas after their invasion of southern portions of the Byzantine Empire. Their translations and commentaries on these ideas worked their way through the Arab West into Spain and Sicily, which became important centers for this transmission of ideas. This work of translation from Islamic culture, though largely unplanned and disorganized, constituted one of the greatest transmissions of ideas in history.[1]
Western Arab translations of Greek works (found in Iberia and Sicily) originates in the Greek sources preserved by the Byzantines. These transmissions to the Arab West took place in two main stages.

 

[westwall]

Yes your ancestors were enslaved. Your ancestors built nothing until after they were taught by Africans. Greece didn't become a country unil 800 BC. Most of their gods were Black. Then they lost their minds and forgot their history which the Moors had to save for them. Dont you wonder why the other white races despise you? They dont even think you are really white.

Actually the Romans saved the Greek history.

Do you have a source? The below is basically what I know about it.

Transmission of the Classics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In the Western Provinces (what today is considered the Western Europe's heartland), the collapsing Roman empire lost many Greek manuscripts which were not preserved by monasteries] But even there scribes sometimes recycled old parchment, scraping off old texts in order to create new books.[11] After a while, only a few monasteries in the west had Greek works, and even fewer of them copied these works (mainly the Irish).[12] Irish monks had been taught by Greek and Latin missionaries who probably had brought Greek texts with them.

Arab logicians had inherited Greek ideas after their invasion of southern portions of the Byzantine Empire. Their translations and commentaries on these ideas worked their way through the Arab West into Spain and Sicily, which became important centers for this transmission of ideas. This work of translation from Islamic culture, though largely unplanned and disorganized, constituted one of the greatest transmissions of ideas in history.[1]
Western Arab translations of Greek works (found in Iberia and Sicily) originates in the Greek sources preserved by the Byzantines. These transmissions to the Arab West took place in two main stages.

Look up Pliny the Elder (who died during the eruption and destruction of Pompeii) who wrote about early Roman history. The Romans conquered Greece and adopted Greek culture that suited them. That included preserving their history. The Moors didn't come along until long, long after the Romans, and after them, the Byzantines saved Greek history.

You too have a lot of reading to catch up on!

And truly, avoid Wiki like the plague. The amount of disinformation on that site is legendary. No institute of higher learning allows it to be used as a source. It's that bad.

 

[Asclepias]

Actually the Romans saved the Greek history.

Do you have a source? The below is basically what I know about it.

Transmission of the Classics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Arab logicians had inherited Greek ideas after their invasion of southern portions of the Byzantine Empire. Their translations and commentaries on these ideas worked their way through the Arab West into Spain and Sicily, which became important centers for this transmission of ideas. This work of translation from Islamic culture, though largely unplanned and disorganized, constituted one of the greatest transmissions of ideas in history.[1]
Western Arab translations of Greek works (found in Iberia and Sicily) originates in the Greek sources preserved by the Byzantines. These transmissions to the Arab West took place in two main stages.

Look up Pliny the Elder (who died during the eruption and destruction of Pompeii) who wrote about early Roman history. The Romans conquered Greece and adopted Greek culture that suited them. That included preserving their history. The Moors didn't come along until long, long after the Romans, and after them, the Byzantines saved Greek history.

You too have a lot of reading to catch up on!

And truly, avoid Wiki like the plague. The amount of disinformation on that site is legendary. No institute of higher learning allows it to be used as a source. It's that bad.

My knowledge of Rome is pretty sketchy but I do know the fall of Rome was before the Moors and brought on the Dark Ages in Europe. Everything I have researched shows the Moors took the work of the Greeks and translated it into Arabic and taught it in Europe which brought Europe out of the Dark Ages. The nobility before the coming of the Moors were illiterate. Are you saying the Romans were the first to save Greek History?

 

[longly]

Afrocentrics are probably disturbed because what you are saying is a lie. There are ruined cities. There are stoneworks. There is sub-saharan writing. The reason these things appear to be confined to the mediterranean is because you just haven't bothered to research it. Another thing that may disturb them is the assumption that what white people consider civilization is their opinion and not the end all be all. It would be like someone telling you the only way you can be considered a real man is if you were Black.

The word civilization is not a pejorative, but merely a label. I am sure you know that it denotes a society that has reached a certain level of cultural, technical and societal development. How is that insulting to anyone anywhere?

If there are ancients ruins in sub-Saharan Africa they would be easily visible; building stones produced by skilled stone masons are not easily over looked. Nature does not produce large rocks of uniform size with smooth sides and square corners.

Look up Great Zimbabwe and be educated....

I am familiar with Great Zimbabwe to me it appears similar to the ruins of the Anasazi Indian culture of the western US. But, look at those stones does that look like the work of skilled stone masons. Those stones look naturally formed to me. To build great Zimbabwe would have only required the ability to stack stones, no need for years of apprenticeship to a master stone mason. Hex I could do that, anyone who could stack dominoes could do it.

 

[Asclepias]

The word civilization is not a pejorative, but merely a label. I am sure you know that it denotes a society that has reached a certain level of cultural, technical and societal development. How is that insulting to anyone anywhere?

If there are ancients ruins in sub-Saharan Africa they would be easily visible; building stones produced by skilled stone masons are not easily over looked. Nature does not produce large rocks of uniform size with smooth sides and square corners.

Look up Great Zimbabwe and be educated....

I am familiar with Great Zimbabwe to me it appears similar to the ruins of the Anasazi Indian culture of the western US. But, look at those stones does that look like the work of skilled stone masons. Those stones look naturally formed to me. To build great Zimbabwe would have only required the ability to stack stones, no need for years of apprenticeship to a master stone mason. Hex I could do that, anyone who could stack dominoes could do it.

Thanks for admitting it looks like the Anasazi. That brings us back to the OP. If you look at the NA culture their languages and names for places sound very West African. I believe there is a link.

 

[GreenBean]

Afrocentrics are probably disturbed because what you are saying is a lie. There are ruined cities. There are stoneworks. There is sub-saharan writing. The reason these things appear to be confined to the mediterranean is because you just haven't bothered to research it. Another thing that may disturb them is the assumption that what white people consider civilization is their opinion and not the end all be all. It would be like someone telling you the only way you can be considered a real man is if you were Black.

The word civilization is not a pejorative, but merely a label. I am sure you know that it denotes a society that has reached a certain level of cultural, technical and societal development. How is that insulting to anyone anywhere?

If there are ancients ruins in sub-Saharan Africa they would be easily visible; building stones produced by skilled stone masons are not easily over looked. Nature does not produce large rocks of uniform size with smooth sides and square corners.

Look up Great Zimbabwe and be educated....

African Empires , like European and Asian ones have risen and fallen - Mali, Songhay, Ghana. By Great Zimbabwe I believe you are referring to the Kingdom of Mutapa which I think fell under early European colonialism.

Not all Africans were running around the jungle chucking spears and beating bongo drums - they had some admirable civilizations - some which probably sent expeditions as far as the Americas.

 

[Meathead]

The word civilization is not a pejorative, but merely a label. I am sure you know that it denotes a society that has reached a certain level of cultural, technical and societal development. How is that insulting to anyone anywhere?

If there are ancients ruins in sub-Saharan Africa they would be easily visible; building stones produced by skilled stone masons are not easily over looked. Nature does not produce large rocks of uniform size with smooth sides and square corners.

Look up Great Zimbabwe and be educated....

I am familiar with Great Zimbabwe to me it appears similar to the ruins of the Anasazi Indian culture of the western US. But, look at those stones does that look like the work of skilled stone masons. Those stones look naturally formed to me. To build great Zimbabwe would have only required the ability to stack stones, no need for years of apprenticeship to a master stone mason. Hex I could do that, anyone who could stack dominoes could do it.

Clearly then, the Anasazi went to the West coast and sailed their canoes clear to Africa where they proceeded to build Great Zimbabwe since Africans seemed incapable of doing it on their own. This is according the Asc model of diffusion and an all together more likely scenario than the reverse.

 

[Asclepias]

Look up Great Zimbabwe and be educated....

I am familiar with Great Zimbabwe to me it appears similar to the ruins of the Anasazi Indian culture of the western US. But, look at those stones does that look like the work of skilled stone masons. Those stones look naturally formed to me. To build great Zimbabwe would have only required the ability to stack stones, no need for years of apprenticeship to a master stone mason. Hex I could do that, anyone who could stack dominoes could do it.

Clearly then, the Anasazi went to the West coast and sailed their canoes clear to Africa where they proceeded to build Great Zimbabwe since Africans seemed incapable of doing it on their own. This is according the Asc model of diffusion and an all together more likely scenario than the reverse.

Except you forget that the stuff built in Africa proceeds the NA's ever having been in the americas. Learn what a timetable is.

 

[Meathead]

I am familiar with Great Zimbabwe to me it appears similar to the ruins of the Anasazi Indian culture of the western US. But, look at those stones does that look like the work of skilled stone masons. Those stones look naturally formed to me. To build great Zimbabwe would have only required the ability to stack stones, no need for years of apprenticeship to a master stone mason. Hex I could do that, anyone who could stack dominoes could do it.

Clearly then, the Anasazi went to the West coast and sailed their canoes clear to Africa where they proceeded to build Great Zimbabwe since Africans seemed incapable of doing it on their own. This is according the Asc model of diffusion and an all together more likely scenario than the reverse.

Except you forget that the stuff built in Africa proceeds the NA's ever having been in the americas. Learn what a timetable is.

Hell, we're dealing with an imaginary African civilization sailing on imaginary boats. And no, the Anasazi had their heyday at about before Zimbabwe. Who cares, this diffusion from/to sub-Saharan Africa is all make-believe anyway.

 

[Asclepias]

Clearly then, the Anasazi went to the West coast and sailed their canoes clear to Africa where they proceeded to build Great Zimbabwe since Africans seemed incapable of doing it on their own. This is according the Asc model of diffusion and an all together more likely scenario than the reverse.

Except you forget that the stuff built in Africa proceeds the NA's ever having been in the americas. Learn what a timetable is.

Hell, we're dealing with an imaginary African civilization sailing on imaginary boats. And no, the Anasazi had their heyday at about before Zimbabwe. Who cares, this diffusion from/to sub-Saharan Africa is all make-believe anyway.

Whatever it takes for you not to feel threatened. Just keep repeating that to yourself.

 

[westwall]

Do you have a source? The below is basically what I know about it.

Transmission of the Classics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Look up Pliny the Elder (who died during the eruption and destruction of Pompeii) who wrote about early Roman history. The Romans conquered Greece and adopted Greek culture that suited them. That included preserving their history. The Moors didn't come along until long, long after the Romans, and after them, the Byzantines saved Greek history.

You too have a lot of reading to catch up on!

And truly, avoid Wiki like the plague. The amount of disinformation on that site is legendary. No institute of higher learning allows it to be used as a source. It's that bad.

My knowledge of Rome is pretty sketchy but I do know the fall of Rome was before the Moors and brought on the Dark Ages in Europe. Everything I have researched shows the Moors took the work of the Greeks and translated it into Arabic and taught it in Europe which brought Europe out of the Dark Ages. The nobility before the coming of the Moors were illiterate. Are you saying the Romans were the first to save Greek History?

Actually the Catholic Church preserved a great deal of Greek culture after the fall of Rome.
You make far to general of statements when it comes to European culture. The nobility were all literate for the most part. ALL of the clergy was literate.

I think more advanced culture came from the Arabs than the Moors. During the Crusades the medieval knights witnessed the excellent living conditions of the Arabs as regards baths and beds etc. and brought that back with them when they went home.

The Moorish influence was predominantly in Spain and Portugal, with a little in Sicily. The Reconquista took around 700 years to accomplish so the Moors were well entrenched in Spain, but their influence north of the Pyrenees was very, very limited.

 

[westwall]

The word civilization is not a pejorative, but merely a label. I am sure you know that it denotes a society that has reached a certain level of cultural, technical and societal development. How is that insulting to anyone anywhere?

If there are ancients ruins in sub-Saharan Africa they would be easily visible; building stones produced by skilled stone masons are not easily over looked. Nature does not produce large rocks of uniform size with smooth sides and square corners.

Look up Great Zimbabwe and be educated....

I am familiar with Great Zimbabwe to me it appears similar to the ruins of the Anasazi Indian culture of the western US. But, look at those stones does that look like the work of skilled stone masons. Those stones look naturally formed to me. To build great Zimbabwe would have only required the ability to stack stones, no need for years of apprenticeship to a master stone mason. Hex I could do that, anyone who could stack dominoes could do it.

You couldn't do that in a million years. It is FAR more difficult to assemble walls with stones such as those than it is with brick. And I doubt you could do it with brick either.

No, Great Zimbabwe is a masterclass in stone masonry.