Afghan Newlyweds Stoned To Death

[Grace]

No harshness was involved.

And both the man and the woman were treated equally under the law.

I apologize in advance...but...bullshit. The majority of stonings are women. And they are stoned because they have been accused of ...whatever. And the accusers were men...either husbands or boyfriends or some guy that had other agendas and had to get rid of the current wife to marry the next one or some such crap.

Your laws were written by man, for MAN.

Pretty much and not all that different from the old testament rules regarding women.
I recall something about "let he who is without sin cast the first stone". But that was the new testament.

Thats why I said all religions suck.

 

[Kalam]

I also think that some Westerners (me included) feel that a lot of these people carrying out these acts of barbarity are uneducated, which is a result of maniuplation by both Islamic govts and Imans. Keeping people ignorant and unenlightened behooves both. It gives the govt and Imans power, not only due to their ability to have influence due to their station in life, but also due to their education.

There's some truth to this. If a person is illiterate or uneducated, they're incapable of ijtihad -- independent interpretation -- and are more or less at the mercy of their local imam or whichever shaykh they choose to follow. However, encouraging ignorance and religious incompetence is completely contrary to the letter and spirit of Islam. Additionally, the relationship between religiosity and poverty isn't the same in the Muslim world as it is in the West.

I absolutely believe that the people in charge of govts in the Muslim world are of the "do as we say, not as we do" ilk.

Get people with Islam as the major religion educated, and I would suggest a lot of these barbaric practices would stop.

Your characterization of governments is accurate but your implication that educated Muslims are less likely to be religious doesn't seem to be. A casual investigation into Islamist opposition groups like the Muslim Brothers and Hizb ut-Tahrir will show that university students, professionals, and high-ranking members of the military and government form the bulk of their membership in many countries. There's even said to be a high proportion of university graduates among the ranks of al-Qa'idah.

Gallup’s Centre for Muslim Studies in New York carried out surveys of 10,000 Muslims in ten predominantly Muslim countries. One finding was that the wealthier and better-educated the Muslim was, the more likely he was to be radicalised.

Anti-American feelings soar among Muslims, study finds - Times Online​

I think part of the reason educated Muslims are more likely to be "radical" is because they're more conscious of how corrupt and ineffective their secular or semi-secular governments are. They're also more likely to be familiar with their religion and the sort of accountable governance it demands; this is seen as an alternative to the powers that rule over them and explains their involvement in violent and non-violent Islamist groups.

Westerners view secularization as a step toward enlightenment because that's the way the Western world developed. The history of the Muslim world is fundamentally different and will lead us along a different path.

A lot of the conservatives on this board - especially the ignorant - find it hard to believe there was a time when the arab world was at the centre of scientific and mathematical learning. It has been stuck in the dark ages for a very long time...mainly due to Islam and its interpretation of it by Imans.

I have to disagree with that. You'll find that most or many of the great scientific minds of the Islamic Golden Age were also extremely important religious scholars, jurists, or philosophers. See Al-Ghazali, Ibn Sina (modern medicine), Al-Kindi, Ibn Rushd, Ibn Khaldun (modern social sciences), Al-Farabi, Ibn al-Haytham (optics), etc. The only notable irreligious polymath I know of was Omar Khayyam.

The most famous Imams also tended to be opponents of the government and oppressive rule. Of the four who founded the four major Sunni schools of jurisprudence, Abu Hanifa was imprisoned and beaten and supported insurrections against two caliphates, Malik was flogged for issuing a fatwa against forced allegiance to Caliph al-Mansur, ash-Shafi'i was accused of supporting rebellion against Harun ar-Rashid, and Ahmad ibn Hanbal was called before Caliph al-Ma'mun's Inquisition and still defied him.

 

[Ropey]

The most famous Imams also tended to be opponents of the government and oppressive rule. Of the four who founded the four major Sunni schools of jurisprudence, Abu Hanifa was imprisoned and beaten and supported insurrections against two caliphates, Malik was flogged for issuing a fatwa against forced allegiance to Caliph al-Mansur, ash-Shafi'i was accused of supporting rebellion against Harun ar-Rashid, and Ahmad ibn Hanbal was called before Caliph al-Ma'mun's Inquisition and still defied him.

Sounds like a fine old family line indeed.

Meet my brother, the murderer who overthrew....

Famous. Now there's the definitive word in your entire statement. It defines the statement as those people and the acts they have done are famous. And these are your leaders. Well, at least they're not clerics eh?

 

[Kalam]

To a certain extent. But I am a Westerner by nationality and was raised in an environment that was almost completely secular, so my own set of morals was very "Western" and certain old habits and beliefs die hard.

So when Westerners see Muslims executing people for something they don't think is very serious, the obvious conclusion is that Muslims are strict reactionaries who react to minor crimes with disproportionate harshness. This type of harshness is viewed as an outdated practice (as that's precisely what it has become in Western history) and it is entirely inconsistent with Western notions of modernity and acting civilized.

I did not say you were a born Muslim. I said you were, to my view, a true believer of Islam and honest when it comes to Islam. It is likely why you understand the Wests dislikes and fears of Islam. Still, you show more confusion than one might think for a convert. I would think you would well know and not be confused over the impact.

I don't know why that is. What kind of confusion on my part do you perceive?

But then let's face it, if hatred of Israel and Zionism can be fronted and foisted by such converts as you and Sunni Man, then it does not bode well.

I should mention that my opposition to Israel had nothing to do with religion in the beginning. It began with my own study of the conflict's history. My religiosity only changed the nature of my opposition and more recent happenings have caused it to intensify.

But who knows the tides and sands? Even so, any true believer of Judaism is expected to know and follow many laws as well. The highly orthodox choose a very strict path.

The difference is allowance of personal choice. It is a major divergence, but there are many. Not simply financially as some will point out, but culturally in aspects of choices. I could give many examples. I will simply give one.

We have homosexual and transvestite Rabbis.

The strictness in Islam is there and can't be hidden Kalam. Not even minimized because we are already maximizing it since it is our rock. There is no use trying to make your pebble smaller. It will not work as this is is rooted in the major difference between Islam, Judaism and Christianity. It is choice where the divergence is shown to nexus.

Choice. The tree of life and knowledge. The Apple. Choice.

Islam is harsh to Western standards. Very harsh. Then there's the financial rock Kalam. There's many different rocks.

I understand what you're saying. In my study of other religions I've noticed that Judaism and especially Christianity are usually less specific than Islam with regard to the guidance they give their followers in everything ranging from individual worship and eating habits to the judiciary and statecraft. I say this is less true for Judaism since you have a wonderful example of exhaustive scriptural analysis and exegesis in the Gemara. But since modern Jewry was largely shaped by the experiences of Jews in Europe, you were affected by the same wave of secularism that swept across European Christendom and a huge number of Jews today self-identify as secular.

The model of behavior of Islam is Muhammad (SAWS) and Muslims were left with a staggering number of traditions related to every aspect of his behavior and speech -- I don't think there is anything comparable related to Moses (AS) or Jesus (AS) in Judaism or Christianity. I think this is the reason you believe there's less choice in Islam, although I disagree with you -- many of the questions that Jews and Christians have had to answer themselves can be answered in Islam by turning to scripture or prophetic practice. I say we still have choice because this has given rise to an enormous number of sects, schools or jurisprudence, schools of theology, movements, etc. based on the many interpretations that can be derived from our religious canon, and they are as diverse as the body of believers they represent.

 

[Kalam]

Famous. Now there's the definitive word in your entire statement. It defines the statement as those people and the acts they have done are famous. And these are your leaders. Well, at least they're not clerics eh?

The caliphs they opposed were murderers. The four imams (RA) weren't clerics because Sunni Islam doesn't exactly have what can be called a clergy, but they were the scholars of fiqh to whom their respective communities turned for religious guidance, and they were those whose fatawa form the basis of today's four schools of law. I think they're rather blameless... I'll leave you with the wisdom Abu Hanifa shared with one of his students:

"Give everyone who frequents you some of the knowledge they are expecting. Be friendly with them, and joke with them sometimes and chat with them. Love encourages people to persevere in knowledge. Feed them sometimes and fulfill their needs. Acknowledge their worth and overlook their faults. Be kind to them and tolerant of them: do not show them annoyance or vexation. Be like one of them... do not burden people with what they cannot do."

 

[Ropey]

I don't know why that is. What kind of confusion on my part do you perceive?

You seem not so strong about understanding why the Western culture sees such acts as inhumane.

But then let's face it, if hatred of Israel and Zionism can be fronted and foisted by such converts as you and Sunni Man, then it does not bode well.

I should mention that my opposition to Israel had nothing to do with religion in the beginning. It began with my own study of the conflict's history. My religiosity only changed the nature of my opposition and more recent happenings have caused it to intensify.

And I the other side. I have told you what I see there. What I have seen there as an Israeli citizen. I was there for more than a few of the suicide attacks and I won't go deeper, but it's there.

Your words in past posts show your intensity Kalam. You made it more than clear to me.

But who knows the tides and sands? Even so, any true believer of Judaism is expected to know and follow many laws as well. The highly orthodox choose a very strict path.

The difference is allowance of personal choice. It is a major divergence, but there are many. Not simply financially as some will point out, but culturally in aspects of choices. I could give many examples. I will simply give one.

We have homosexual and transvestite Rabbis.

The strictness in Islam is there and can't be hidden Kalam. Not even minimized because we are already maximizing it since it is our rock. There is no use trying to make your pebble smaller. It will not work as this is is rooted in the major difference between Islam, Judaism and Christianity. It is choice where the divergence is shown to nexus.

Choice. The tree of life and knowledge. The Apple. Choice.

Islam is harsh to Western standards. Very harsh. Then there's the financial rock Kalam. There's many different rocks.

I understand what you're saying. In my study of other religions I've noticed that Judaism and especially Christianity are usually less specific than Islam with regard to the guidance they give their followers in everything ranging from individual worship and eating habits to the judiciary and statecraft. I say this is less true for Judaism since you have a wonderful example of exhaustive scriptural analysis and exegesis in the Gemara. But since modern Jewry was largely shaped by the experiences of Jews in Europe, you were affected by the same wave of secularism that swept across European Christendom and a huge number of Jews today self-identify as secular.

The model of behavior of Islam is Muhammad (SAWS) and Muslims were left with a staggering number of traditions related to every aspect of his behavior and speech -- I don't think there is anything comparable related to Moses (AS) or Jesus (AS) in Judaism or Christianity. I think this is the reason you believe there's less choice in Islam, although I disagree with you -- many of the questions that Jews and Christians have had to answer themselves can be answered in Islam by turning to scripture or prophetic practice. I say we still have choice because this has given rise to an enormous number of sects, schools or jurisprudence, schools of theology, movements, etc. based on the many interpretations that can be derived from our religious canon, and they are as diverse as the body of believers they represent.

Choice where and how you practice? Yes, I can see this and you have some minor sects, but Sunni Islam is where it's at. And is there any choice to the main shari'i position tenets of Islamic Law and which you stated are more voluminous than both Christianity, Judaism and likely every other cultural laws included?

So, you can choose the color of the house. Any color you want.

As long as it's black?

Famous. Now there's the definitive word in your entire statement. It defines the statement as those people and the acts they have done are famous. And these are your leaders. Well, at least they're not clerics eh?

The caliphs they opposed were murderers. The four imams (RA) weren't clerics because Sunni Islam doesn't exactly have what can be called a clergy, but they were the scholars of fiqh to whom their respective communities turned for religious guidance, and they were those whose fatawa form the basis of today's four schools of law. I think they're rather blameless... I'll leave you with the wisdom Abu Hanifa shared with one of his students:

"Give everyone who frequents you some of the knowledge they are expecting. Be friendly with them, and joke with them sometimes and chat with them. Love encourages people to persevere in knowledge. Feed them sometimes and fulfill their needs. Acknowledge their worth and overlook their faults. Be kind to them and tolerant of them: do not show them annoyance or vexation. Be like one of them... do not burden people with what they cannot do."

Good wisdom. Judaism, Christianity and Islam have their place or they would not be here. They are all products of G-d. They all have their wise leaders and their fools.

It doesn't change the reality on the ground.

 

[Kalam]

You seem not so strong about understanding why the Western culture sees such acts as inhumane.

Perhaps I can't.

And I the other side. I have told you what I see there. What I have seen there as an Israeli citizen. I was there for more than a few of the suicide attacks and I won't go deeper, but it's there.

Your words in past posts show your intensity Kalam. You made it more than clear to me.

I'm a passionate person. What you see as religiously-charged statement may really be me using religion as an emotional outlet, and that's an unfortunate tendency of mine.

Choice where and how you practice? Yes, I can see this and you have some minor sects, but Sunni Islam where it's at. And is there any choice to the main shari'i position tenets of Islamic Law and which you stated are more voluminous than both Christianity,Judaism and likely every other cultural laws included.

The people of the Sunnah are predominant but the Shi'at 'Ali are influential and have been such an important force throughout history that they can't be ignored. And they attract converts as well.

Is there choice as far as Shari'ah is concerned? Well of course. Even the differences between the four schools are quite pronounced on certain issues, yet each recognizes the others as legitimate. The only issue within Islam that hasn't given rise to multiple viewpoints is that there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is the messenger of Allah.

So, you can choose the color of the house. Any color you want.

As long as it's black?

Well, I disagree with that assessment. But I do appreciate the irony of a Jew quoting Henry Ford.

 

[Ropey]

Even the differences between the four schools are quite pronounced on certain issues, yet each recognizes the others as legitimate.

Please define certain issues.

I'm glad you got the quote.

We are nothing if we do not have both our humor and irony, but most of all humanity. To take something not so good, and turn it into a humor and as an edgewise in discussion is enjoyable.

 

[Kalam]

Even the differences between the four schools are quite pronounced on certain issues, yet each recognizes the others as legitimate.

Please define certain issues.

Name an issue or an aspect of belief or practice and there's likely to be a difference between at least some of the four schools, not to mention within each.

I'm glad you got the quote.

We are nothing if we do not have both our humor and irony, but most of all humanity. To take something not so good, and turn it into a humor and as an edgewise in discussion is enjoyable.

Of course.

 

[High_Gravity]

That harshness is mainly applied to women, is it not?

No harshness was involved.

And both the man and the woman were treated equally under the law.

Stoning someone to death isnt harsh?

 

[High_Gravity]

They knew the law and chose to violate it.

Case closed.

Does it actually say in the Afghan law that the penalty for adultery is stoning? or was this just some lynch mob dishing out its own justice?

 

[Sunni Man]

Stoning someone to death isnt harsh?

Both men and women have received the death penalty here in the U.S. and were executed last year.

I don't consider it harsh; but applied "justice"

The method, stoning or injection, achieves the same result.

So what's the problem?

 

[Jroc]

We are nothing if we do not have both our humor and irony, but most of all humanity. To take something not so good, and turn it into a humor and as an edgewise in discussion is enjoyable.

And this is the key.

 

[Sunni Man]

Does it actually say in the Afghan law that the penalty for adultery is stoning? or was this just some lynch mob dishing out its own justice?

Isn't the law of any country.

Just that societies morals and values given legal voice and boundaries?

The offenders had been given a trial and admitted their guilt.

Plus the crowd in the video seemed to support the execution.

And no one was trying to stop the sentence from being carried out.

So what's the problem?

 

[daveman]

You guys need to set your calendars ahead about 14 centuries. Civilized nations don't go for such barbarity.

Like how a so called "civilized Western nation" dropped two atomic bombs on two cities full of civilians?

Or do you mean like how the "civilized European nations" murdered and slaughtered tens of millions of civilians during WWII ??

What higher purpose was served by murdering these two people in so barbaric a fashion?

 

[High_Gravity]

Stoning someone to death isnt harsh?

Both men and women have received the death penalty here in the U.S. and were executed last year.

I don't consider it harsh; but applied "justice"

The method, stoning or injection, achieves the same result.

So what's the problem?

The people that were executed on death row here are usually there for multiple murders, I think thats a big difference between that and adultery, plus these guys on death row in the US get plenty of chances for appeals to clear their names, how many chances did this Afghan couple get?

 

[High_Gravity]

Does it actually say in the Afghan law that the penalty for adultery is stoning? or was this just some lynch mob dishing out its own justice?

Isn't the law of any country.

Just that societies morals and values given legal voice and boundaries?

The offenders had been given a trial and admitted their guilt.

Plus the crowd in the video seemed to support the execution.

And no one was trying to stop the sentence from being carried out.

So what's the problem?

The problem is this whole thing was nothing different than the lynchings that went on across this country, it was not legal and the people that did it had no real authority to carry it out. Just the fact that they video taped it shows that it was a vengeful act for propoganda purposes, last time I checked it was illegal to videotape or photograph executions.

 

[Sunni Man]

What higher purpose was served by murdering these two people in so barbaric a fashion?

They were not murdered.

It's called execution; same as we do here in the U.S.

They had a legal trial and were found guilty of a crime that carries the death penalty.

I guess that you object to the method of execution?

But whether it is stoning or lethal injection.

Legal justice was carried out for the benefit of society.

Same rational that we use for defending executions here in America.

 

[Sunni Man]

last time I checked it was illegal to videotape or photograph executions.

Maybe in the U.S. it is illegal.

But not in other countries.

 

[High_Gravity]

What higher purpose was served by murdering these two people in so barbaric a fashion?

They were not murdered.

It's called execution; same as we do here in the U.S.

They had a legal trial and were found guilty of a crime that carries the death penalty.

I guess that you object to the method of execution?

But whether it is stoning or lethal injection.

Legal justice was carried out for the benefit of society.

Same rational that we use for defending executions here in America.

People in the US stay on death row for years and get numerous chances for appeals to clear their names, there is no comparison between them and what happened to this Afghan couple. It is ok to be Muslim and criticize this barbaric act Sunni.