Can the war be won?

Discussion in 'Afghanistan' started by p kirkes, Aug 23, 2010.

  1. p kirkes
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    p kirkes VIP Member

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    The Russians spent ten years bleeding in Afghanistan and ignominiously withdrew. The Taliban, a brutal band of self righteous thugs then wrested control of Afghanistan, killing thousands of their own people in the process..

    The Northern Alliance, a loose confederation opposed to the Taliban could not dislodge them.

    After the invasion by the US and it's partners, the Taliban was defeated but the new government was and still is ineffective and corrupt. The Taliban are returning with a vengeance.

    Ten years have elapsed and the Taliban are still killing their countrymen, wrecking havoc on reconstruction and inhibiting law and order.

    How can they do that? Are the Afghan people completely cowed by the Taliban so they won't fight back? There isn't an overwhelming number of Taliban fighters, but their tactics are winning the day.

    Something is very, very wrong with the way the good guys are spending capital, lives and not getting a return for the bang.

    It's day after day, month after month, year after year and now a decade later we are no closer to ending this war. That's the definition of insanity, right? Keep doing things the same way but expect a different result?

    I no longer support the notion that we are defending freedom or protecting the US, we are just bleeding, just as the Russians did more than a decade ago. And, we still can't find Osama Bin Laden, the reason we are there in the first place.

    I say declare victory, pull out and leave with the warning "don't do that again or we'll be back".

    Do you think the Tallban want us back? They were content to beat up on the women until OBL moved in. Maybe they won't let him back in, do ya think?
     
  2. Dante
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    Dante On leave Supporting Member

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    If we run away they will welcome OBL with a fucking parade. You are thinking from a western point of view -- and a defeatist one at that.

    We'll be back? That would have worked ages ago. Not now. If we leave that way the Taliban will look at it as a defeat of the US and Western powers. Not a very good scenario to have. If they were cocky pre-911, what they would be like after a running away is too scary to imagine.

    The Taliban will not go away, because Afghanistan is their home. They are not foreigners, we are.

    What the Soviets were doing, and why the Soviets (not the Russians) were in Afghanistan is so different than what is going on today that it is not helpful to look at things in so simplistic terms.

    --

    Are the Taliban's tactics winning the day as you say?
     
  3. p kirkes
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    p kirkes VIP Member

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    With respect, I don't believe it was the Taliban that threatened us pre 9/11, it was Al Qaida. A terrorist organization headquartered in Afghanistan with the explicit permission of the Afghanistan government, the Taliban, such as it was. The Taliban were and are not Al Qaida, merely supportive.

    However, President Bush linked terrorist organizations with governments harboring them. Thus the Taliban was made the enemy as well as Al Qaida because they wouldn't give them up. Rightly so.

    But since then Al Qaida has moved to Pakistan and that government won't give them up either. Recent reports on the news disclosed that Pakistani intelligence service is aiding Al Qaida. Now what?

    Our mission in Afghanistan is over. Our continued operations there is nothing more than fighting on one side of a civil war. The present Afghanistan government has, IMO, hoodwinked us into fighting their battle so they can continue to lead the "good" life.

    Yes, in this case I feel defeated in this action. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck then it's a duck. We are not winning, we are just spinning our wheels. Like I said, the Taliban was not our intended target.

    I don't subscribe to the premise that if we pull out Al Qaida will be back.

    Most of our allies hare left and/or in the process of doing so, what more can you say? Do they feel defeated? Of course they or us won't say as much but it's still a duck.

    Afghanistan is a disjointed tribal society with deep hatred between it's ethnic groups. The Taliban, like Marshall Tito in Europe, held them in check and together.

    But I am, as you pointed out, a Westerner, but I don't think it's in our interest to change the form of government anywhere in the Islamic world, it would be unsustainable at best.

    Regards,
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2010
  4. Douger
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    Douger BANNED

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  5. georgephillip
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    georgephillip Gold Member Supporting Member

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    Is it possible the return on the bang is all going to Wall Street and other economic elites including many high-ranking officers in the US Military?

    Was Smedley Butler confused when he wrote War is a Racket?
     
  6. uscitizen
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    uscitizen Senior Member

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    We are bringing democracy to a nation/people that still stone people to death.
    Like democracy is gonna fix everything.
    Stupit us.
     
  7. HUGGY
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    HUGGY I Post Because I Care Supporting Member

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    It does not matter. Win?..lose? We lost any ability to act in whatever the true spirit of what America stood for was supposed to be. This is why a rapist cannot be judged by a jury of rape victims. We were violated and the violated have decided to go to war instead of arresting the violators in the best tradition of what American justice used to be. The question in my mind is will we recover from our disfuntional condition. In my opinion our leaders faced a very difficult choice when we were atttacked and they failed. They could have done the right thing which would have required unusual strength. They reacted like children lashing out without clear purpose and absolute resolve to arrest, try and convict the guilty.

    Winning at this point would be accepting that we failed ourselves and what we should want America to stand for. Winning would be learning from this last ten years that mob rule and weak leaders did not serve us very well.
     
  8. hipeter924
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    hipeter924 Not a zombie yet

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    America never had such a quality, while internally the US may have had a high standard of human rights throughout its history in comparison to other nations, the treatment of African Americans, Indians and others being the exception to that. America just like other nations invaded for economic or military self interest (the Philippines and Hawaii in particular), as did the nations of Europe, Asia, Africa and the Middle East.

    So I don't see anything bad about the US presence in Afghanistan any more than I saw anything bad about the Soviet presence in Afghanistan, both nations went in to bring stability and peace.

    Sure the US has economic and military interests, sure there is war profiteering, but name a single war in history without such things going on? The world has always had torture, rape, widespread bombing/city razing, disease, hunger, genocide. All these things continue to be part of war today, nothing has changed.

    The left has ranted on about the US being evil and malevolent in Afghanistan, Iraq, Korea, Vietnam and every war in history its been in while ignoring that every nation regardless of ideology, religion,etc has done exactly the same thing as the US (if not far worse) just in a different name or time, including the Middle East (that includes the Islamic nations), Europe (that includes Russia) and Asia (that includes China).

    If the US leaves then Afghanistan will go back to the mess we left it in, the question people have to ask is can the US afford to stay, despite the possible economic benefits? The simple answer is no, but if cost is the issue then surely we should have never liberated Europe from the Nazi's nor cut off Japanese oil supplies and forced their hand, and certainly should have never entered any conflict with any nation (for ethical or social reasons) which at the time had no financial benefit to the US.

    So the question would really be, do we want to go to war with nations we don't like, and if so are we prepared the accept the reality of war and the corruption and violence that goes with it?
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2010
  9. uscitizen
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    uscitizen Senior Member

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    Rumsfeld said the war would last maybe 6 months top and that was how long ago?
    Of course it must have been won years ago.
     
  10. Douger
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    Douger BANNED

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    I betcha Rummy's portfolio is looking SWEET since he made that declaration.
     

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