Affordable Care Act: A Child's Garden Of Lies And Distortions

[The Rabbi]

On your "Next question". I have considered the cost of free PREVENTATIVE health care. And I make the judgment that 'free' education, inoculations, contraceptives and periodic physical examinations from cradle to grave means less chronic illness (diabetes, heart disease, high blood pressure, obesity) and early detection (cancers, periodontal disease) will be less expensive to treat then when they are discovered after symptoms appear and the afflicted (and possibly uninsured) goes to an emergency room.

Can you show that preventative care actually reduces medical costs? I think the answer is no.

Are you serious? Do inoculations prevent disease? What do you think is the cost to treat one victim of preventable polio? Contraception prevents pregnancy. Listening to the heart and lungs, taking a patients temperature, blood pressure, etc and labs can lead to early detection and prevent future - sometimes cataclysmic - patient outcomes.

So you cannot show evidence. Got it.

 

[The Rabbi]

Can you show that preventative care actually reduces medical costs? I think the answer is no.

Are you serious? Do inoculations prevent disease? What do you think is the cost to treat one victim of preventable polio? Contraception prevents pregnancy. Listening to the heart and lungs, taking a patients temperature, blood pressure, etc and labs can lead to early detection and prevent future - sometimes cataclysmic - patient outcomes.

He will argue ANYTHING that goes against his party and narrow minded beliefs, ANYTHING. Save your energy.

Do you have any evidence that preventative care lowers health care costs overall? Any at all?

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp0708558
Obviously unless you can coerce people to quit smoking and drinking and over-eating you won't get any savings.
QED.

 

[The Rabbi]

Are you serious? Do inoculations prevent disease? What do you think is the cost to treat one victim of preventable polio? Contraception prevents pregnancy. Listening to the heart and lungs, taking a patients temperature, blood pressure, etc and labs can lead to early detection and prevent future - sometimes cataclysmic - patient outcomes.

He will argue ANYTHING that goes against his party and narrow minded beliefs, ANYTHING. Save your energy.

Isn't it amazing how the anti-Obama crowd has disappeared from this thread?

It happens everytime they are asked to defend their beliefs.

You have been asked to defend your statement and you cannot. Which one of us is unable to defend his beliefs?

 

[Wry Catcher]

He will argue ANYTHING that goes against his party and narrow minded beliefs, ANYTHING. Save your energy.

Isn't it amazing how the anti-Obama crowd has disappeared from this thread?

It happens everytime they are asked to defend their beliefs.

You have been asked to defend your statement and you cannot. Which one of us is unable to defend his beliefs?

You're either an unabashed liar or mentally ill. That's not an ad hominem attack, it's a fact based on the evidence.

The polio vaccine prevented polio, saved lives and lots of money.

 

[The Rabbi]

Isn't it amazing how the anti-Obama crowd has disappeared from this thread?

It happens everytime they are asked to defend their beliefs.

You have been asked to defend your statement and you cannot. Which one of us is unable to defend his beliefs?

You're either an unabashed liar or mentally ill. That's not an ad hominem attack, it's a fact based on the evidence.

The polio vaccine prevented polio, saved lives and lots of money.

That wasn't the issue. You made a claim that preventative health measures save money. I called the claim and asked for evidence. You presented none. Now you want to say that a vaccine prevented an illness, like that has fuck-all to do with it.
No, I presented evidence that counters your claim. Disallowing measures that compel cessation of smoking, drinking and being obese there is no evidence preventative health care saves any money at all.

 

[Syphon]

My guess as to what Jesus would do is as good as anyone's.
I doubt he would have invited the Roman authorities to come in and take control. So he would have encouraged his disciples to form voluntary associations to assist the poor meet expenses.
Next question:
Have you counted on the explosion of costs as more and more people take advantage of "free" health care, necessitating higher and higher payroll taxes?
This is the experience with every payroll tax deduction. Medicare itself started off at .35%. Now it is up to 1.65%.

On your "Next question". I have considered the cost of free PREVENTATIVE health care. And I make the judgment that 'free' education, inoculations, contraceptives and periodic physical examinations from cradle to grave means less chronic illness (diabetes, heart disease, high blood pressure, obesity) and early detection (cancers, periodontal disease) will be less expensive to treat then when they are discovered after symptoms appear and the afflicted (and possibly uninsured) goes to an emergency room.

Can you show that preventative care actually reduces medical costs? I think the answer is no.

yup easy to prove you wrong again
MMS: Error
We propose an approach to part of this problem that has been neglected, one that focuses on systematically reducing the need and thus the demand for medical services. This approach requires expanding the definitions of “health promotion” and “preventive care,” paying selective attention to strategies that have been found to result in net cost savings.

MMS: Error

Indeed, some evidence does suggest that there are opportunities to save money and improve health through prevention. Preventable causes of death, such as tobacco smoking, poor diet and physical inactivity, and misuse of alcohol have been estimated to be responsible for 900,000 deaths annually — nearly 40% of total yearly mortality in the United States.1 Moreover, some of the measures identified by the U.S. Preventive Services Task Force, such as counseling adults to quit smoking, screening for colorectal cancer, and providing influenza vaccination, reduce mortality either at low cost or at a cost savings.2

damn that new england journal of medicine..

 

[The Rabbi]

On your "Next question". I have considered the cost of free PREVENTATIVE health care. And I make the judgment that 'free' education, inoculations, contraceptives and periodic physical examinations from cradle to grave means less chronic illness (diabetes, heart disease, high blood pressure, obesity) and early detection (cancers, periodontal disease) will be less expensive to treat then when they are discovered after symptoms appear and the afflicted (and possibly uninsured) goes to an emergency room.

Can you show that preventative care actually reduces medical costs? I think the answer is no.

yup easy to prove you wrong again
MMS: Error
We propose an approach to part of this problem that has been neglected, one that focuses on systematically reducing the need and thus the demand for medical services. This approach requires expanding the definitions of “health promotion” and “preventive care,” paying selective attention to strategies that have been found to result in net cost savings.

MMS: Error

Indeed, some evidence does suggest that there are opportunities to save money and improve health through prevention. Preventable causes of death, such as tobacco smoking, poor diet and physical inactivity, and misuse of alcohol have been estimated to be responsible for 900,000 deaths annually — nearly 40% of total yearly mortality in the United States.1 Moreover, some of the measures identified by the U.S. Preventive Services Task Force, such as counseling adults to quit smoking, screening for colorectal cancer, and providing influenza vaccination, reduce mortality either at low cost or at a cost savings.2

damn that new england journal of medicine..

Youve actually proven me right. You are too stupid to understand that of course.
The articles discuss life style changes, i.e. tobacco, alcohol and obesity. I've already covered those in my answers, that you failed to understand.
Darn this reading stuff sure is tough.

 

[Syphon]

Can you show that preventative care actually reduces medical costs? I think the answer is no.

yup easy to prove you wrong again
MMS: Error
We propose an approach to part of this problem that has been neglected, one that focuses on systematically reducing the need and thus the demand for medical services. This approach requires expanding the definitions of “health promotion” and “preventive care,” paying selective attention to strategies that have been found to result in net cost savings.

MMS: Error

Indeed, some evidence does suggest that there are opportunities to save money and improve health through prevention. Preventable causes of death, such as tobacco smoking, poor diet and physical inactivity, and misuse of alcohol have been estimated to be responsible for 900,000 deaths annually — nearly 40% of total yearly mortality in the United States.1 Moreover, some of the measures identified by the U.S. Preventive Services Task Force, such as counseling adults to quit smoking, screening for colorectal cancer, and providing influenza vaccination, reduce mortality either at low cost or at a cost savings.2

damn that new england journal of medicine..

Youve actually proven me right. You are too stupid to understand that of course.
The articles discuss life style changes, i.e. tobacco, alcohol and obesity. I've already covered those in my answers, that you failed to understand.
Darn this reading stuff sure is tough.

"Can you show that preventative care actually reduces medical costs? I think the answer is no."

your exact words.

guess you missed this line too : screening for colorectal cancer, and providing influenza vaccination

all of these items fall under preventative care..... wow amazing. thanks for proving my point, preventative care saves on health care costs.

 

[The Rabbi]

yup easy to prove you wrong again
MMS: Error
We propose an approach to part of this problem that has been neglected, one that focuses on systematically reducing the need and thus the demand for medical services. This approach requires expanding the definitions of “health promotion” and “preventive care,” paying selective attention to strategies that have been found to result in net cost savings.

MMS: Error

Indeed, some evidence does suggest that there are opportunities to save money and improve health through prevention. Preventable causes of death, such as tobacco smoking, poor diet and physical inactivity, and misuse of alcohol have been estimated to be responsible for 900,000 deaths annually — nearly 40% of total yearly mortality in the United States.1 Moreover, some of the measures identified by the U.S. Preventive Services Task Force, such as counseling adults to quit smoking, screening for colorectal cancer, and providing influenza vaccination, reduce mortality either at low cost or at a cost savings.2

damn that new england journal of medicine..

Youve actually proven me right. You are too stupid to understand that of course.
The articles discuss life style changes, i.e. tobacco, alcohol and obesity. I've already covered those in my answers, that you failed to understand.
Darn this reading stuff sure is tough.

"Can you show that preventative care actually reduces medical costs? I think the answer is no."

your exact words.

guess you missed this line too : screening for colorectal cancer, and providing influenza vaccination

all of these items fall under preventative care..... wow amazing. thanks for proving my point, preventative care saves on health care costs.

I laready excluded coercing people into lifestyle changes. And you are cherry picking. The question was whether preventative mainenance as a whole reduces costs. The answer is no.

 

[Listening]

Let us know when countries with socialist medical systems come running to our model for efficiency.

But why would they do that when their model is half as expensive as ours.

Why do conservatives feel the need to protect the insurance companies and their profits over their own best interests, or more importantly, the best interests of Americans who would LIKE the option of a single payer system? Does our working together for all our best interests FRIGHTEN AND CONFUSE YOU?

It is government that protects the insurance companies.

Obamacare gave them 30 million new customers.

Are you really that stupid ?

And when Canadians want certain types of operations..they come to the U.S. They also buy up hosptial beds in the U.S. in anticipation of shortages.

I've been in Alberta when the T.V. was awash in political adds decrying the lack of doctors.

What was the question ?

Most of us already have what we need. What pisses us off is the idea that you can just rewite the constitution because you like some idea.

Obama swore to uphold (and that does not mean reading in the bathroom before he wipes his ass with it) it.

 

[Listening]

yup easy to prove you wrong again
MMS: Error
We propose an approach to part of this problem that has been neglected, one that focuses on systematically reducing the need and thus the demand for medical services. This approach requires expanding the definitions of “health promotion” and “preventive care,” paying selective attention to strategies that have been found to result in net cost savings.

MMS: Error

Indeed, some evidence does suggest that there are opportunities to save money and improve health through prevention. Preventable causes of death, such as tobacco smoking, poor diet and physical inactivity, and misuse of alcohol have been estimated to be responsible for 900,000 deaths annually — nearly 40% of total yearly mortality in the United States.1 Moreover, some of the measures identified by the U.S. Preventive Services Task Force, such as counseling adults to quit smoking, screening for colorectal cancer, and providing influenza vaccination, reduce mortality either at low cost or at a cost savings.2

damn that new england journal of medicine..

Youve actually proven me right. You are too stupid to understand that of course.
The articles discuss life style changes, i.e. tobacco, alcohol and obesity. I've already covered those in my answers, that you failed to understand.
Darn this reading stuff sure is tough.

"Can you show that preventative care actually reduces medical costs? I think the answer is no."

your exact words.

guess you missed this line too : screening for colorectal cancer, and providing influenza vaccination

all of these items fall under preventative care..... wow amazing. thanks for proving my point, preventative care saves on health care costs.

That is all in a model. I have friends with insurance who won't get physicals and won't get cholonoscopies. Fat lot of good that is going to do them.

I agree that we need to get preventive care to those who need it.

Just not through Uncle Obama and Aunt Axelrod.

 

[starcraftzzz]

.-----
"Can you show that preventative care actually reduces medical costs? I think the answer is no."
your exact words.
guess you missed this line too : screening for colorectal cancer, and providing influenza vaccination
all of these items fall under preventative care..... wow amazing. thanks for proving my point, preventative care saves on health care costs.-----
I laready excluded coercing people into lifestyle changes. And you are cherry picking. The question was whether preventative mainenance as a whole reduces costs. The answer is no.

Screening for cancer and providing flue shots doesn't change peoples lifestyles.
YOu were proven wrong, at least have to balls to admit it and not spew complete stupidity

 

[Wry Catcher]

You have been asked to defend your statement and you cannot. Which one of us is unable to defend his beliefs?

You're either an unabashed liar or mentally ill. That's not an ad hominem attack, it's a fact based on the evidence.

The polio vaccine prevented polio, saved lives and lots of money.

That wasn't the issue. You made a claim that preventative health measures save money. I called the claim and asked for evidence. You presented none. Now you want to say that a vaccine prevented an illness, like that has fuck-all to do with it.
No, I presented evidence that counters your claim. Disallowing measures that compel cessation of smoking, drinking and being obese there is no evidence preventative health care saves any money at all.

I'm leaning on the side that you are mentally ill.

 

[Political Junky]

Let us know when countries with socialist medical systems come running to our model for efficiency.

But why would they do that when their model is half as expensive as ours.

Why do conservatives feel the need to protect the insurance companies and their profits over their own best interests, or more importantly, the best interests of Americans who would LIKE the option of a single payer system? Does our working together for all our best interests FRIGHTEN AND CONFUSE YOU?

Is a puzzlement.

 

[The Rabbi]

.-----
"Can you show that preventative care actually reduces medical costs? I think the answer is no."
your exact words.
guess you missed this line too : screening for colorectal cancer, and providing influenza vaccination
all of these items fall under preventative care..... wow amazing. thanks for proving my point, preventative care saves on health care costs.-----
I laready excluded coercing people into lifestyle changes. And you are cherry picking. The question was whether preventative mainenance as a whole reduces costs. The answer is no.

Screening for cancer and providing flue shots doesn't change peoples lifestyles.
YOu were proven wrong, at least have to balls to admit it and not spew complete stupidity

You really think flu shots and screenings are going to control health care costs? Really??

 

[RDD_1210]

.-----
"Can you show that preventative care actually reduces medical costs? I think the answer is no."
your exact words.
guess you missed this line too : screening for colorectal cancer, and providing influenza vaccination
all of these items fall under preventative care..... wow amazing. thanks for proving my point, preventative care saves on health care costs.-----
I laready excluded coercing people into lifestyle changes. And you are cherry picking. The question was whether preventative mainenance as a whole reduces costs. The answer is no.

Screening for cancer and providing flue shots doesn't change peoples lifestyles.
YOu were proven wrong, at least have to balls to admit it and not spew complete stupidity

You really think flu shots and screenings are going to control health care costs? Really??

Yup, definitely mentally ill.

 

[The Rabbi]

Screening for cancer and providing flue shots doesn't change peoples lifestyles.
YOu were proven wrong, at least have to balls to admit it and not spew complete stupidity

You really think flu shots and screenings are going to control health care costs? Really??

Yup, definitely mentally ill.

Translation: He's right but I can't refute it. So I'll say this to sound clever.

No, preventative care will not lower overall healthcare costs. This is proven.
So now we've dispensed with that. Wryshitter's suggestion is wrong. His plan would balloon health costs as people pile on free health care, just as happened in every state that has tried this.

Next deflection?

 

[Wry Catcher]

Pages back I wrote:

Doesn't anyone have an opinion on what form of health care would be best?

I do. In a nutshell I believe:

All American citizens should be covered under an expanded Medicare Program which covers preventative care and emergency treatment by private sector doctors, clinics, hospitals, etc. Payments to such providers to be determined by regional costs annually determined; co-pays to be determined by each individual provider.

In each Congressional District a Health Center would be build to provide at no cost to all citizen inoculations and education on STD's, contraceptives, medication for chronic disease including diabetes and heart conditions and treatment for minor injury's and illness (Cost-benefit keeping Emergency rooms at hospitals costs down, saving dollars for private, non profit and public hospitals and reducing the cost of private insurance to consumers).

100 Federal Hospitals would be built (one for each senator) each to include a teaching environment for any student who wishes to become a Doctor, Nurse or technician (in a medical specialty) at low or no cost, and the payment for such an education to be worked off in a health center or public hospital.

(each clinic and hospital to be named after the member of Congress who was in office when such an act was passed - since nothing will happen one needs to consider the greed and egos of those elected to Congress).

I have more ideas, but I've been accused of being Don Quixote and having Impossible Dreams (one of the nicer add hominems I must admit)

Pages later Rabbi has offered no alternative idea and seems content to argue that preventive medicine isn't cost effective. I wonder, why he is allowed to spam a thread when it's clear he has no ideas or integrity and is likely the only person on this planet who doesn't understand if someone doesn't brush their teeth they fall out.

 

[Syphon]

.-----
"Can you show that preventative care actually reduces medical costs? I think the answer is no."
your exact words.
guess you missed this line too : screening for colorectal cancer, and providing influenza vaccination
all of these items fall under preventative care..... wow amazing. thanks for proving my point, preventative care saves on health care costs.-----
I laready excluded coercing people into lifestyle changes. And you are cherry picking. The question was whether preventative mainenance as a whole reduces costs. The answer is no.

Screening for cancer and providing flue shots doesn't change peoples lifestyles.
YOu were proven wrong, at least have to balls to admit it and not spew complete stupidity

You really think flu shots and screenings are going to control health care costs? Really??

its called preventing people from getting sick. a $20 flu shot is much less than a $5,000 hospital stay due to influenza. a $500 colonoscopy is much less than $200k for chemo. this is just way over your head

 

[Syphon]

Youve actually proven me right. You are too stupid to understand that of course.
The articles discuss life style changes, i.e. tobacco, alcohol and obesity. I've already covered those in my answers, that you failed to understand.
Darn this reading stuff sure is tough.

"Can you show that preventative care actually reduces medical costs? I think the answer is no."

your exact words.

guess you missed this line too : screening for colorectal cancer, and providing influenza vaccination

all of these items fall under preventative care..... wow amazing. thanks for proving my point, preventative care saves on health care costs.

That is all in a model. I have friends with insurance who won't get physicals and won't get cholonoscopies. Fat lot of good that is going to do them.

I agree that we need to get preventive care to those who need it.

Just not through Uncle Obama and Aunt Axelrod.

so now your applauding people who arent personally responsible..... hypocrite