ACLU and "separation of church & state"

[FredVonFlash]

No. Open your damn eyes, monkeynut.

I read you to say you have no real evidence.

FVF

 

[rtwngAvngr]

I read you to say you have no real evidence.

FVF

That's right. The the adl and the aclu both love expression of religions puclicly.

 

[sitarro]

I am a lawyer and a liberal and damn proud of both.

FVF

Judging from the statements I have read so far, I believe you....then again you could have easily said "I lie and cheat others for a living and yet I am also proud to have no brain and will defend the indefensible at the detriment of this country for a buck.....kick my ass, Please!" I would tell you to go suck dick but I'm sure that is why your typing is so garbled, you're already stuffed.

You are living proof that anyone can make it through law school, even the most ignorant. :finger: :fu2:

 

[007]

What is a liberal? What talking points?

Fred

So now you're an IGNORANT lawyer, playing stupid.... well, OK, you're not playing stupid.

 

[007]

You mean the various and sundry enemies of america and freedom? Talmudocorrupted jews, communists, and islamofascists?

Don't forget NAMBLA and flag burners RWA.

 

[Jimmyeatworld]

God has not imposed the duty for me to come here and post what ever I want. However, he has imposed a duty that I pray according to the dictates of my conscience and convictions. For any man to advise me regarding matters where I am forbidden to follow or even to consider his advice is a sin against God; and it is disrespectful of my duty to God; and it is an infringment upon my right to follow only the dictates of my conscience.



If you prayed for the victims of 9/11 or Katrina because the government advised you to so, your prayers went to the Devil, not to God. Asking someone to pray implies a duty to do so.

The President should ask us to pray only if he believes God directs him to do so and he makes that very clear when he makes the request. He should say something like this: "I speak to you now - not as your President - but as a civilian with no civil authority or power whatsover. God has told me to ask you to pray and I now ask you to pray for ...." (that I be impeached, convicted and removed from office for being a liar and sorry pathetic excuse for a human being

FVF

You're going to have to decide if you are making a religious argument or a political one.

No, I didn't pray for the victims of 9/11 and Katrina because the president mentioned it, and asking someone to pray is nothing more than asking someone to pray. He has still not infringed upon a person's right to do so or not do so. You are taking something that is a good hearted gesture and twisting it for your political beliefs. Frankly, my friend, you are the one dealing with the Devil.

 

[Jimmyeatworld]

What is a liberal? What talking points?

Fred

You say you are a Liberal and then have to ask what a Liberal is...

You tell us, Fred. What is a Liberal?

 

[Jimmyeatworld]

The people I represent find me extremely useful.

And can you honestly say you have represented them with the same trust in God you claim you have? If God were in the courtroom, would you be able to use all the arguments you have used for these clients and not offend God?

 

[Jimmyeatworld]

In matters of government authority over religion, James Madison and Thomas Jefferson saw no difference between a government recommendation and a command, and neither do I, nor should any Christian Patriot.

FVF

What authority? What commands? What is a Christian Patriot?

 

[Jimmyeatworld]

I read you to say you have no real evidence.

FVF

What is real evidense?

 

[FredVonFlash]

You say you are a Liberal and then have to ask what a Liberal is...You tell us, Fred. What is a Liberal?

Ya got me there Slick...I just said it to piss you off.

FVF

 

[FredVonFlash]

And can you honestly say you have represented them with the same trust in God you claim you have? If God were in the courtroom, would you be able to use all the arguments you have used for these clients and not offend God?

I use the same arguments that were employed during the period from 1774 to 1860 by prominent Christian mininsters who advocated a strict separation of church and state including Elisha Wiliams, Isaac Backus, Samuel Stillman, John Leland, Gilbert Beebe and others. Here is a famous 1845 sermon by Gilbert Beebe.

My Kingdom is Not of This World

Gilbert Beebe (1800 - 1881)
John 18:36
· "Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence".

Thus spake the Son of God when mantled in the flesh. He stood arraigned at the bar of Pilate; and when, if there had been anything in the elements of this world which could contribute to the defense or benefit of His kingdom, they must have been called into action. All the interests of the kingdom which He claimed as His own, centered in Him, and the destiny of the kingdom, for weal or woe, was at that important moment hinged upon the result of what was at that time progressing.

None of the princes of this world knew Him; He had not made a revelation of what He was, even to those who sat empowered to deliver Him to death. He had not labored in His ministry to make Himself familiar to the crowned heads of the nations of the earth. He had proposed no treaties or terms of alliance with them; not had He called on them, or any of them, to propose terms for His acceptance; for the nature of His kingdom was so radically different from every kingdom under heaven, that it was not possible that an alliance could be entered into that could subserve the true interests of either party. His kingdom truly was destined to encounter the violence, enmity, wrath, strife, and persecution of kingdoms of men, both in her King and in the subjects of her government.

The powers which should oppose Him in person and in His people were not such as He was compelled to succumb to for what of power to resist, for He reminded Pilate that he would not have had any power, if it had not been given him; and on another occasion He declared that He was able to call on His Father, who would instantly honor His requisition for more than twelve legions of angels--a force sufficient to overwhelm all earthly powers engaged against Him; but how, in that case, could the Scriptures be fulfilled? Not an intimation was made of raising up an earthly force to resist the assaults of the enemies of His kingdom, even if a force had been requisite, He would have called from the heavenly world.

We may well conclude, that if in that most trying hour, when His holy soul was pressed within Him, He had nothing to ask of the rulers of this world, there never could a period arrive when the powers of earthly princes should be required to defend Him or His cause. To those who tempted Him with their questions concerning tribute money, He said, Render unto Caesar the things which belong to Caesar, and unto God the things which belong to God; thus clearly intimating that the governments were not only distinct from each other, but that the distinction should be perpetual; and that the requisitions of Caesar, or of the governments of the nations, had to do with men as citizens of the world, and that their obligation to earthly magistrates and rulers was not relaxed nor abolished by the administration of His laws. And again, that the things of God were not to be rendered to Caesar, but unto God.

Things of a civil nature, relating to the natural rights of men, were to be settled by God's own providential appointment, by human legislation; but the things aside from a respect for and obedience to earthly potentates, in natural matters, belonging to God, such as matters of faith, of conscience, of religion, were not things over which the kings of the earth had any supervision or power, and things in which His subjects were not at liberty under any circumstances, to submit to the dictation or legislation of any other than God Himself.

The kingdom of Jesus is not of this world. In its origin, elements, provisions, policy, protection, government, or destiny. Its origin is heaven-- it is a heavenly kingdom. The King is the Lord from heaven; He said, "I proceeded forth and came out from the Father;" and again, "What and if ye shall see the Son of Man ascend up where He was before," etc. The subjects of his kingdom are of the same origin, for "Both he sanctifies, and they that are sanctified, are all of one; for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren" and he said, "Thine they were and thou gavest them me." "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world." etc.

The laws for the regulation of this heavenly kingdom are not of earthly enactment. Christ the anointed of the Father, is the sole Legislator, and he, by His Spirit, writes his law upon, and sets it up in the hearts of his children. The elements, or component parts, viewed separately or collectively, are all of God, and every plant that the heavenly Father has not planted shall be rooted up.

The provision on which this kingdom is sustained, were given us in Christ Jesus before the foundation of the world, and being prior to, could not be of the world. Grace, mercy, peace, righteousness, and truth, with all things else necessary for the commandment of the everlasting and unchanging decree of God, were treasured up in the Head of the church before the world began; and all the provisions of his spiritual house on which His poor are fed; were brought down from the abounding and overflowing fountain from which every good and perfect gift comes. And he will abundantly bless her provisions and fill her with bread.

The policy of this kingdom is from above. "For our conversation is in heaven," and it is therefore as becomes the children of God. All earthly religions have to depend on human policy, human wisdom, and humanly devised means; but not so with the kingdom which no man can see except he be born again.
The protection of that kingdom is of him who is a wall of fire round about it, and the glory in its midst. All anti-christian religious establishments desire the arm of human government--regal power, and human means for their protection; but not so with the kingdom of Jesus Christ; the eternal God is the refuge of His people, and underneath them are the everlasting arms.
All provisions on which the subjects of the kingdom of our Lord are fed, comforted, instructed, and secured, are spiritual, and therefore cannot emanate from any but a spiritual fountain. Although the world, the flesh and Satan have volunteered like the aliens about Jerusalem in the days of Nehemiah, to furnish God's people with food, the order of the government forbids the traffic with them; and it is impossible that the children of the kingdom should be fed with any other food than that which God has graciously provided, and abundantly blessed.

Should the government of the kingdom of our Redeemer be to any extent divided with angels or men, whatever part or portion these should administer, must necessarily detract so much from the power and glory of Christ. "The government shall be upon his shoulder; and of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end." So stands the record of the Holy One. The subjects of his government are forbidden to call any man, master, or father, as their Master and spiritual Progenitor is in heaven, and nothing can be born of the flesh but flesh; so that without being born again, no man can see the kingdom of God. A legislature of unregenerate men who cannot see the kingdom, would be very poorly qualified to legislate for a kingdom which is to them absolutely invisible; and if there were none but regenerate men seated in legislation, they being by the new birth qualified to see the kingdom of God, would to a man, know by the same illuminating work of the Spirit, that they could do nothing to aid in the legislative or executive departments of the Messiah's kingdom.

The destiny of the kingdom of which we write, differs essentially from that of all other kingdoms. The best systems of human government are destined to crumble to the ground. In the providence of God, empires are founded, kingdoms and republics are raised up, they reach their climax, and then decline, and finally cease to be reckoned among the things that be; but the kingdom of Jesus is an everlasting kingdom, and a dominion that shall never end. It shall never be changed, superseded, or transferred to other hands. The mountains shall depart, the hills shall be moved, the earth and the sea shall pass away, and all the elements of this world shall be dissolved, but the kingdom of our God shall survive them all, and flourish in eternal bloom. How presumptuous then, for monarchs of the earth, whose transient glory is as a withering flower, or human legislatures which God shall obliterate, to prepare the way of the rising empire of his to reach forth the guilt-polluted fingers of their power, to point out the course in which God requires his children to move.

Seeing, then, that we look for such things--seeing that we have received a kingdom which is not of this world, which cannot be moved--let us have grace whereby we may serve God acceptably, with reverence and Godly fear; for our God is a consuming fire. http://members.aol.com/twarren20/kingdomchrist.html​

 

[007]

Ya got me there Slick...I just said it to piss you off.

FVF

So I wasn't the only one you "just wanted to piss off".

Well, your true colors are known to all now. You're just a smartass, liberal quack, here to piss people off.

:finger:

 

[5stringJeff]

MOD HAT ON

All parties involved: it's an emotional subject. It's been debated numerous times on here. Keep it civil.

MOD HAT OFF

 

[FredVonFlash]

So I wasn't the only one you "just wanted to piss off".

Well, your true colors are known to all now. You're just a smartass, liberal quack, here to piss people off.
:finger:

Here is something you may find interesting.

Baptist Ministers Wanted Absolute Separation of Church and State In The Alabama Constitutional Convention of 1901​

Petition from the Baptist Ministers’ Institute at Anniston, to the Alabama State Constitutional Convention:

Anniston, Ala., June 28th, 1901.

Whereas, The doctrine of soul liberty, not only for themselves, but for all men everywhere has been one of the fundamental principles of the Baptist people throughout their entire history, a doctrine for the establishment and maintenance of which our father, spared neither their property nor their lives : and,

Whereas, The actual membership of the white Baptist Churches in Alabama amounts to more than one hundred and thirty thousand (130,000) souls, representing not less than one half of the white family life in the State; and,
Whereas, Many other citizens in Alabama of all faiths and of no religious connection, believe in the above mentioned principle of complete separation between the church and State; and,

Whereas, If instead of this vast number, only a few of the people should claim the right of absolute religious freedom, they would still be entitled to its blessings, therefore be it

Resolved, by the Baptist Ministers' Institute, now in session at Anniston, Ala., that in the name of all parties concerned we do now most earnestly and respectfully petition the honorable members of the Alabama State Constitutional Convention, now recasting the organic laws of our State, to make the clause guaranteeing freedom of religion and the absolute separation of church and State, so clear that it will be impossible for any to misunderstand its provisions, and that public funds cannot under any circumstances be appropriated to any kind of ecclesiastical institution, thereby infringing on the rights and violating the conscience of a free people.

Resolved, further, That a committee consisting of L. O. Dawson, Charles A. Stakely and W. B. Crumpton, be appointed by this Institute to forward these resolutions to the Convention now in session at Montgomery, with the assurance that sincere prayer is made to God by the ministers in attendance upon the Institute in behalf of the members of the Convention that they may be divinely guided both individually and collectively, in the great and important task of framing a new Constitution for our beloved State.

Referred to the Committee on Legislative Department.

http://www.legislature.state.al.us/.../proceedings/1901_proceedings_vol1/day44.html

 

[rtwngAvngr]

FredVonFelch, do ALL liberals consider Baptists to be as enlightened as you consider them?

 

[FredVonFlash]

FredVonFelch, do ALL liberals consider Baptists to be as enlightened as you consider them?

How would I know?

FVF

 

[rtwngAvngr]

How would I know?

FVF

Good point. WHy am I asking questions of an ignorant cretin?

 

[5stringJeff]

Here is something you may find interesting.

Baptist Ministers Wanted Absolute Separation of Church and State In The Alabama Constitutional Convention of 1901​

Petition from the Baptist Ministers’ Institute at Anniston, to the Alabama State Constitutional Convention:

Anniston, Ala., June 28th, 1901.

Whereas, The doctrine of soul liberty, not only for themselves, but for all men everywhere has been one of the fundamental principles of the Baptist people throughout their entire history, a doctrine for the establishment and maintenance of which our father, spared neither their property nor their lives : and,

Whereas, The actual membership of the white Baptist Churches in Alabama amounts to more than one hundred and thirty thousand (130,000) souls, representing not less than one half of the white family life in the State; and,
Whereas, Many other citizens in Alabama of all faiths and of no religious connection, believe in the above mentioned principle of complete separation between the church and State; and,

Whereas, If instead of this vast number, only a few of the people should claim the right of absolute religious freedom, they would still be entitled to its blessings, therefore be it

Resolved, by the Baptist Ministers' Institute, now in session at Anniston, Ala., that in the name of all parties concerned we do now most earnestly and respectfully petition the honorable members of the Alabama State Constitutional Convention, now recasting the organic laws of our State, to make the clause guaranteeing freedom of religion and the absolute separation of church and State, so clear that it will be impossible for any to misunderstand its provisions, and that public funds cannot under any circumstances be appropriated to any kind of ecclesiastical institution, thereby infringing on the rights and violating the conscience of a free people.

Resolved, further, That a committee consisting of L. O. Dawson, Charles A. Stakely and W. B. Crumpton, be appointed by this Institute to forward these resolutions to the Convention now in session at Montgomery, with the assurance that sincere prayer is made to God by the ministers in attendance upon the Institute in behalf of the members of the Convention that they may be divinely guided both individually and collectively, in the great and important task of framing a new Constitution for our beloved State.

Referred to the Committee on Legislative Department.

http://www.legislature.state.al.us/.../proceedings/1901_proceedings_vol1/day44.html

See the underlined paragraph. Apparently, the Alabama Baptists wanted to ensure that no money was ever given from the government to a church or other ecclesiastical organization. That was their definition of "separation of church and state." No one has any problems with that. The problems arise when organizations start to say things like 'There's a cross in the city seal, the cross is a Christian symbol, so the city obviously endorses Christianity over other religions - SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE!!!' Such statements go far beyond what Madison, Jefferson, or even the Baptists Minister's Institute called for.

 

[FredVonFlash]

See the underlined paragraph. Apparently, the Alabama Baptists wanted to ensure that no money was ever given from the government to a church or other ecclesiastical organization. That was their definition of "separation of church and state." No one has any problems with that. The problems arise when organizations start to say things like 'There's a cross in the city seal, the cross is a Christian symbol, so the city obviously endorses Christianity over other religions - SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE!!!' Such statements go far beyond what Madison, Jefferson, or even the Baptists Minister's Institute called for.

The use of the words "absolute" and "total" suggests a desire for broader prohibitions. The Baptist doctrine of "Soul Liberty" was founded on the rejection of all human authority whatsoever over religion and it required a Strict Separation of Church and State where even advisory authority was denied to the government.

FVF