ACLU and "separation of church & state"

[Nuc]

Is that why they established a separation of church and state?

FVF

No they did that because they were smart. Perhaps they envisioned a time when Christianity would no longer be dominant.

 

[Jimmyeatworld]

It yet remains a problem to be solved in human affairs, whether any free government can be permanent, where the public worship of God, and the support of religion, constitute no part of the policy or duty of the state in any assignable shape. The future experience of Christendom, and chiefly of the American states, must settle this problem, as yet new in the history of the world, abundant, as it has been, in experiments in the theory of government.

Probably at the time of the adoption of the constitution, and of the amendment to it, now under consideration, the general, if not the universal, sentiment in America was, that Christianity ought to receive encouragement from the state, so far as it is not incompatible with the private rights of conscience, and the freedom of religious worship. An attempt to level all religions, and to make it a matter of state policy to hold all in utter indifference, would have created universal disapprobation, if not universal indignation.

Ya gotta read the whole thing...

 

[FredVonFlash]

Probably at the time of the adoption of the constitution, and of the amendment to it, now under consideration, the general, if not the universal, sentiment in America was, that Christianity ought to receive encouragement from the state, so far as it is not incompatible with the private rights of conscience, and the freedom of religious worship. An attempt to level all religions, and to make it a matter of state policy to hold all in utter indifference, would have created universal disapprobation, if not universal indignation.

Ya gotta read the whole thing...

How did Joe Story propose that the State encourage Christianity without infringing upon the private rights of conscience and the freedom of religious worship?

FVF

 

[FredVonFlash]

No they did that because they were smart. Perhaps they envisioned a time when Christianity would no longer be dominant.

They established a separation of church and state because that's what Jesus said to do.

FVF

 

[007]

Please give some examples of what you believe was a part that Christianity played in the conception of American, so that I know exactly what you mean.

I've already done that on this board, more than once.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30006

Since you're new here, why don't we start with this...

Is that why they established a separation of church and state?

Why don't you tell us what this "separation of church and state" is. Show me what that is.

 

[FredVonFlash]

I've already done that on this board, more than once.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30006

Since you're new here, why don't we start with this...

Fair enough. The first one you presented was the bogus prayer journal that the experts say is not in George Washington's handwriting. Is that the best you have?

Why don't you tell us what this "separation of church and state" is. Show me what that is.

James Madison said it is the exemption of the duty that owe to our Creator from the authority of the government.

FVF

 

[007]

Fair enough. The first one you presented was the bogus prayer journal that the experts say is not in George Washington's handwriting. Is that the best you have?



James Madison said it is the exemption of the duty that owe to our Creator from the authority of the government.

FVF

Bogus? You call religous quotes from our founding fathers bogus?

Whatever... argue with yourself then.

B'bye.

 

[FredVonFlash]

Bogus? You call religous quotes from our founding fathers bogus? Whatever... argue with yourself then. B'bye.

The George Washington Prayer Journal is as bogus as Bush is honest. What else ya got Slick?

Let us leave prayer to be prompted by the devotion of the heart, and not to the bidding of the State. Quess who said that.

FVF

 

[007]

The George Washington Prayer Journal is as bogus as Bush is honest. What else ya got Slick?

Let us leave prayer to be prompted by the devotion of the heart, and not to the bidding of the State. Quess who said that.

FVF

Slick? "IS THAT THE BEST YOU GOT"?

I was the only one here that even gave you the time of day, and you come back with your smartass little liberal Bush bashing cake hole?

Put the magazine down, stop rubbing your johnson and get a fucking education and then a job. At thirty three you shouldn't be living with mommy and daddy anymore.

Fucking moron.

 

[FredVonFlash]

Slick? "IS THAT THE BEST YOU GOT"?

I was the only one here that even gave you the time of day, and you come back with your smartass little liberal Bush bashing cake hole?

Put the magazine down, stop rubbing your johnson and get a fucking education and then a job. At thirty three you shouldn't be living with mommy and daddy anymore.

Fucking moron.

I never match wits with a half-wit.

Religion and politics are things that must forever run in parallel lines which never meet; for whenever they meet, there is contamination, and religion has in it much more of earth than heaven. Delegate William Brown, Page 177, Debates of the Texas Convention. Wm. F. Weeks, Reporter, published by authority of the convention, Houston, Published by J.W.Cruger, 1846.

FVF

 

[Jimmyeatworld]

How did Joe Story propose that the State encourage Christianity without infringing upon the private rights of conscience and the freedom of religious worship?

FVF

The same way anybody encourages anything without infringing on someones rights or someones freedoms. I can encourage a teenager not to use drugs, but let them make their own choices. I don't handcuff myself to them and knock the joint out of their hand if they choose to take it. I can encourage someone to go to my church, but I don't show up at their door Sunday morning and drag them there.

 

[Jimmyeatworld]

They established a separation of church and state because that's what Jesus said to do.

FVF

They established freedom of religion because of the way society was in England and through most of Europe at the time. The founding fathers did not establish what you and many others consider seperation of church and state today.

 

[FredVonFlash]

I can encourage someone to go to my church, but I don't show up at their door Sunday morning and drag them there.

Why do you encourge someone to go to your church and is it permissible for the government to do the same?

FVF

 

[FredVonFlash]

They established freedom of religion because of the way society was in England and through most of Europe at the time. The founding fathers did not establish what you and many others consider seperation of church and state today.

What was the fundamental principle of the freedom of religion the founders established; and how is it different from what I and many others consider separation of church and state today.

FVF

 

[Jimmyeatworld]

Why do you encourge someone to go to your church and is it permissible for the government to do the same?

FVF

If I like my church and want to share the experience with someone, or if I think the experience would be good for them, I would encourage them to go.

As far as the government, you missed the point. It wasn't a specific example of going to a specific church, or anything to do with the government. Just an example of how there can be encouragement without requiring someone to do something. Nevertheless, I see nothing wrong or unconstitutional for the government to encourage participation in religion, or to encourage prayer.

 

[Jimmyeatworld]

What was the fundamental principle of the freedom of religion the founders established; and how is it different from what I and many others consider separation of church and state today.

FVF

Why do you make statements and then ask people so many questions when they comment on them? Do you need your own position explained to you?

 

[FredVonFlash]

If I like my church and want to share the experience with someone, or if I think the experience would be good for them, I would encourage them to go.

As far as the government, you missed the point. It wasn't a specific example of going to a specific church, or anything to do with the government. Just an example of how there can be encouragement without requiring someone to do something. Nevertheless, I see nothing wrong or unconstitutional for the government to encourage participation in religion, or to encourage prayer.

How could the government encourage participation in religion or encourage prayer, but at the same time, not infringe upon the authority God to impose religious obligations upon an individual?

FVF

 

[FredVonFlash]

Why do you make statements and then ask people so many questions when they comment on them? Do you need your own position explained to you?

I question everything; I believe truth will stand the test of fire; and because I am trial lawyer and am in the habit of cross examining witnesses.

FVF

 

[Jimmyeatworld]

How could the government encourage participation in religion or encourage prayer, but at the same time, not infringe upon the authority God to impose religious obligations upon an individual?

FVF

Is it really that difficult to understand?

Ok, don't read more into this than what it is. I'm just using an example. I can encourage you to go to another board, saying that I don't think you are bringing anything of worth to this one. Does that mean you have to do it? Am I infringing on your right to come here and post what ever you want?

If something happens, like 9/11 or Katrina, and President Bush speaks to the public and encourages people to pray for the victims, he is not infringing on their religious beliefs, he is not demanding people to do anything, and he is not making an official statement that everyone must drop to their knees and pray to the Christian God. He's just asking people to pray. Those people can then pray or not.

 

[Jimmyeatworld]

...and because I am trial lawyer and am in the habit of cross examining witnesses.

FVF

That explains a lot.