A Solution To The Middle East Conflict

[Typist2]

And I see that you do not think that the history of the Jews is relevant,

The history of the Jews is that for the vast majority of Jewish history most Jews have lived somewhere other than Israel, a fact which continues to this day.

you just want to push this idea of yours as the best and only one feasible.

Again, I have a point of view, and so do you. You are pushing your idea just as much as I am pushing mine, so let's discard this point, ok?

However, the Jews do need and deserve a home of their own.

Most of the Jews in history, including today, have decided they don't need to reside in a Jewish state. What you mean to say is that SOME Jews FEEL they need a Jewish state.

In the meantime, they did 'gather together in many other countries and have in intensely Jewish experience' and still do in some countries.

Yes, thus disproving that there is a NEED for Jewish state. There is a DESIRE by SOME Jews for such a state.

But historically, over those hundreds and hundreds of years they also suffered persecution and hate at the hands of those countries within which they 'gathered'. Even within the United States. And it still happens to this day.

Yes, I agree. But the fact remains, the safest place for Jews on the planet Earth is in fact America. The point is not that America is perfect, for it very clearly is not.

It just so happened that that area was an ancestral home for the Jews, and I think they should stay.

Ok, I'm sure many will agree with you.

It is way to late to unscramble the eggs and make them leave or as you put it, 'volunteer to go some where safer'.

It's not too late. I'm sure some number of Israeli Jews have already moved to the United States for the reasons we are discussing.

 

[docmauser1]

And I see that you do not think that the history of the Jews is relevant,

The history of the Jews is that for the vast majority of Jewish history most Jews have lived somewhere other than Israel, a fact which continues to this day.

you just want to push this idea of yours as the best and only one feasible.

Again, I have a point of view, and so do you. You are pushing your idea just as much as I am pushing mine, so let's discard this point, ok?



Most of the Jews in history, including today, have decided they don't need to reside in a Jewish state. What you mean to say is that SOME Jews FEEL they need a Jewish state.



Yes, thus disproving that there is a NEED for Jewish state. There is a DESIRE by SOME Jews for such a state.



Yes, I agree. But the fact remains, the safest place for Jews on the planet Earth is in fact America. The point is not that America is perfect, for it very clearly is not.

It just so happened that that area was an ancestral home for the Jews, and I think they should stay.

Ok, I'm sure many will agree with you.

It is way to late to unscramble the eggs and make them leave or as you put it, 'volunteer to go some where safer'.

It's not too late. I'm sure some number of Israeli Jews have already moved to the United States for the reasons we are discussing.

[yawn]

 

[flacaltenn]

Justice Requires an End to Israeli Jewish Supremacy Over Palestinians - Ali Abunimah on RAI (5/5) - YouTube

There is no supremacy over Palestinians that a 2 state solution wouldn't solve. It's a self imposed discrimination.. There is no point to complaining about lacking citizenship rights in Israel when the Pali leadership has NO INTENTION of living side by side IN Israel..

The Pali leadership also had no intention of being JORDANIAN citizens or Lebanese citizens or Egyptian citizens. Even tho they were EXTENDED full representation in Jordan and Lebanon.

Best get on with electing leadership that will culminate in a separate Pali state. And if there needs to be a civil war amongst the Palis to do that --- that's part of the process.

As far as the Typist solution to the issue -- I STILL have not gotten a response about how it long it would take to incite an extreme anti-Jewish backlash in the United States by granting PREFERENTIAL IMMIGRATION STATUS to Jews.. Within a year --- every Jew-hater in the country would be up in arms and all the other ethnic identities seeking higher immigration quotas would be rightfully incited to riot. The "plan" is GUARANTEED to double or triple the anti-Jewish interests in the USA.. You simply can't play favorites with immigration quotas in this country without inciting hatred..

I wouldn't condone that type of favoritism for ANY ethnic group as a long term guarantee. NOT in the USA..

 

[Typist2]

As far as the Typist solution to the issue -- I STILL have not gotten a response about how it long it would take to incite an extreme anti-Jewish backlash in the United States by granting PREFERENTIAL IMMIGRATION STATUS to Jews..

Are you aware that there are already as many Jews in the United States as there are in Israel, and nobody is complaining about that?

You STILL had not received a response because you're shouting hysterical paranoid gibberish.

C'mon guys, which is more important, security for Jews, or a never ending finger pointing blame game? You can't have that both, make up your mind please.

 

[Typist2]

A key reason that the Mideast conflict continues endlessly is that a great many people on all sides of the issue have become hopelessly addicted to the ego inflation that can be derived from the finger pointing blame game.

As example, note that it's impossible to start a thread about the Middle East on any forum without that thread immediately becoming a vehicle for this ego gratification process.

Death to the Zionist devils!

The Palestinians are psychopathic criminals!

Yada, yada, YADA!!!

And while so many on both sides enjoy jerking off their egos, people keep dying, dying, dying.

There is exactly no evidence that continuing the finger pointing blame game for even more decades will ever lead to peace. It doesn't persuade anybody of anything, but leads only to both sides digging in and further hardening their positions.

The only writings on this topic which are valid are those which are making a sincere and constructive effort to chart a course to peace. Everything else is juvenile crap.

The only plans which are useful are those which focus on what a side can do on it's own to advance peace, without reference to or dependence upon the other side. Every post which says "the other side should do this!!" is inflating the poster's own ego at the cost of feeding the conflict and death of even more innocent people.

Dear posters, whatever side you're on, show us an intelligent thoughtful constructive idea of what your side can do to help bring peace to the Mideast.

Or please sit down and be quiet. Nobody is interested in your outrage, your finger pointing blame game, your clever put downs, your rejection of every idea that didn't come from you, your little baby ego.

 

[flacaltenn]

As far as the Typist solution to the issue -- I STILL have not gotten a response about how it long it would take to incite an extreme anti-Jewish backlash in the United States by granting PREFERENTIAL IMMIGRATION STATUS to Jews..

Are you aware that there are already as many Jews in the United States as there are in Israel, and nobody is complaining about that?

You STILL had not received a response because you're shouting hysterical paranoid gibberish.

C'mon guys, which is more important, security for Jews, or a never ending finger pointing blame game? You can't have that both, make up your mind please.

It's not paranoid gibberish to point out to you, that your plan REQUIRES permanent preferential treatment of ONE ethnic minority with regards to Immigration priority. THAT is a sure prescription for resentment and backlash. One thing that Jews definitely don't need.
Even when living under the radar historically in many country, many instances of being targeted for "controlling" economic and political decision making. THIS PLAN -- just gives the haters the ammunition they need to make that case stick...

No Thanks..

Sincerely --- FCT

 

[SAYIT]

As far as the Typist solution to the issue -- I STILL have not gotten a response about how it long it would take to incite an extreme anti-Jewish backlash in the United States by granting PREFERENTIAL IMMIGRATION STATUS to Jews..

Are you aware that there are already as many Jews in the United States as there are in Israel, and nobody is complaining about that?

You STILL had not received a response because you're shouting hysterical paranoid gibberish.

C'mon guys, which is more important, security for Jews, or a never ending finger pointing blame game? You can't have that both, make up your mind please.

Did you intentionally misrepresent that post? The author rightly noted that doubling the number of Jews in America overnight by suspending our immigration policies may well face stiff opposition. You claim to want rational discussion and yet when faced with a very real possibility you fold your tent. Adding 6-8 million Israelis to our population isn't legal, practical or realistic and hiding behind the premise of wanting security for Israel's Jews is a smokescreen. You are guilty of clinging desperately to your solution as though it has merit. Grow up.

 

[Typist2]

It's not paranoid gibberish to point out to you, that your plan REQUIRES permanent preferential treatment of ONE ethnic minority with regards to Immigration priority.

First, please explain why the plan requires a permanent preferential treatment.

Second, are you aware that U.S. immigration policy already contains a number of rules and regs which favor one group over another? As example, immigrants from Central America are treated differently than those from Canada and Mexico.

THAT is a sure prescription for resentment and backlash. One thing that Jews definitely don't need.

The question is, where will Jews experience less resentment and backlash?

A notion that they will experience more of this in the United States than they already do in the Middle East is just completely silly. Nobody is going to launch thousands of rockets at Jews if they move to the United States.

The problem we are having is that you appear not to be interested in the subject of this thread, peace and security for Jews.

Instead, all of your energy is going in to playing the fantasy role of The Great Debunker. Using your ego instead of your intelligence to write your posts makes you vulnerable to public embarrassment because many of the points you are making can be dismissed as fast as another poster can type.

Why not take a break, calm down, and come back with thoughtful proposals of your own which constructively address the goal of peace and security for Israeli Jews.

 

[Typist2]

The author rightly noted that doubling the number of Jews in America overnight by suspending our immigration policies may well face stiff opposition.

Any plan, from anybody, with the potential to permanently solve the Mideast conflict is going to be objected to by somebody. If there was an easy, convenient, uncontroversial way to solve this, such a plan would have been implemented long, long ago. Therefore, I take it as a given that any plan that actually worked will be resisted by some.

While there would likely be hysterical resistance to my plan from some quarters, as is being demonstrated here in this thread, that resistance would fade away once it became clear that nothing bad has happened within the United States. The Jews would come, they would add great value to our nation, and then life would go on.

The difference between my plan, and other member's lack of any plan, is that my plan would eventually result in a permanent resolution to the conflict and associated controversies.

You claim to want rational discussion and yet when faced with a very real possibility you fold your tent.

As you can see, I have not folded my tent.

Adding 6-8 million Israelis to our population isn't legal, practical or realistic and hiding behind the premise of wanting security for Israel's Jews is a smokescreen.

Almost everybody in America, all 300 million of us, came from somewhere else. And we are the richest most powerful nation on Earth as a result.

You guys aren't thinking. You're just typing. Focus on the problem, six decades of endless conflict in the Middle East, resulting in the unnecessary death of a great many innocents.

What six decades of conflict should teach us is that all the usual endlessly repeated solutions of war and negotiation are never going to work. Doing the same thing over and over and over again expecting different results is the definition of stupidity.

This is the understanding my plan arises from.

 

[flacaltenn]

It's not paranoid gibberish to point out to you, that your plan REQUIRES permanent preferential treatment of ONE ethnic minority with regards to Immigration priority.

First, please explain why the plan requires a permanent preferential treatment.

Second, are you aware that U.S. immigration policy already contains a number of rules and regs which favor one group over another? As example, immigrants from Central America are treated differently than those from Canada and Mexico.

THAT is a sure prescription for resentment and backlash. One thing that Jews definitely don't need.

The question is, where will Jews experience less resentment and backlash?

A notion that they will experience more of this in the United States than they already do in the Middle East is just completely silly. Nobody is going to launch thousands of rockets at Jews if they move to the United States.

The problem we are having is that you appear not to be interested in the subject of this thread, peace and security for Jews.

Instead, all of your energy is going in to playing the fantasy role of The Great Debunker. Using your ego instead of your intelligence to write your posts makes you vulnerable to public embarrassment because many of the points you are making can be dismissed as fast as another poster can type.

Why not take a break, calm down, and come back with thoughtful proposals of your own which constructively address the goal of peace and security for Israeli Jews.

Oh I do love me some EASY questions..

1)

First, please explain why the plan requires a permanent preferential treatment.

Because that is the PURPOSE and PROMISE of having Israel. And you are NEVER gonna seal the deal and GIVE UP Israel --- without a PERMANENT guarantee to provide the SAME guarantee of sanctuary that having Israel provides. Jews are too smart to take a temporary deal and then find our Ellis Island closed when they need it the most..

2

The question is, where will Jews experience less resentment and backlash?

This is simple and easy. Basically the SAME answer as for #1.. Israel.


Preferential immigration treatment for Jews? Can you imagine the conspiracy theories about how the JEWS now control Washington DC and have had the Media and the Banking industry pull the strings to create a permanent sanctuary in the USA for UNLIMITED numbers of Jews?? Don't bother even TRYING to make me look foolish on this point. Because I don't think you are aware of how much traction these libels and smear have NOW -- before your plan lights the fires of every red-blooded American Jew hater..

 

[Typist2]

Oh I do love me some EASY questions..

All you're interested in is defeating me. This is revealed by the lack of any constructive proposal of your own.

Because that is the PURPOSE and PROMISE of having Israel. And you are NEVER gonna seal the deal without a PERMANENT guarantee to provide the SAME guarantee of sanctuary that having Israel provides.

America has accepted a great many immigrants since it's founding, including as many Jews as are currently in Israel. This is a policy going back over 200 years.

Jews are too smart to take a temporary deal and then find our Ellis Island closed when they need it the most..

Um, if Jews were so incredibly smart, perhaps they might not have moved to the most dangerous part of the world in search of peace and security.

The Jews are smart, but everybody makes mistakes, and Israel is a big one.

This is simple and easy. Basically the SAME answer as for #1.. Israel.

Hmmm, thousands of rockets being fired at Israeli Jews, none being fired at American Jews. Three wars against Jews in the Middle East, no wars against Jews in America. A great deal of passionate hatred of Jews in the Middle East, only modest anti-Semitism in the United States.

Can you imagine the conspiracy theories about how the JEWS now control Washington DC and have had the Media and the Banking industry pull the strings to create a permanent sanctuary in the USA for UNLIMITED numbers of Jews??

I can imagine a great many hysterical paranoid theories from people whose only interest is in forum blowharding, and not the peace and security of Israeli Jews.

Don't bother even TRYING to make me look foolish on this point.

Yea, you're doing such a good job on your own.

Because I don't think you are aware of how much traction these libels and smear have NOW -- before your plan lights the fires of every red-blooded American Jew hater..

Hmmm, thousands of rockets being fired at Israeli Jews, none being fired at American Jews. Three wars against Jews in the Middle East, no wars against Jews in America. A great deal of passionate hatred of Jews in the Middle East, only modest anti-Semitism in the United States.

 

[SAYIT]

Oh I do love me some EASY questions..

All you're interested in is defeating me. This is revealed by the lack of any constructive proposal of your own.

I don't recall you asking for proposals and since you offered yours (unsolicited) it has come under scrutiny and failed the test because:
1) It currently is not legal under our immigration laws.
2) A shitload of Americans would have a cow
3) Other immigrants would also want preferential treatment and we'd be hard pressed to deny them in court.
4) You haven't asked the Israelis if they want to come here.

Your heart may or may not be in the right place but your head is definitely up your butt on this.

 

[Typist2]

Your heart may or may not be in the right place but your head is definitely up your butt on this.

Same old, same old, same old thing.

I have a proposal that would make the Jews of Israel much safer than they are now, and you have no proposal.

You have the energy to sit back and say why anything I type is wrong, Wrong, WRONG, but you don't have the energy to come up with a better proposal.

This reveals that we are really talking about two entirely different topics. You are talking about me. I'm talking about peace and security for Mideast Jews.

 

[Typist2]

1) It currently is not legal under our immigration laws.

Laws can be changed. Consider the President who gets to go on TV and credibly claim that he has solved the Mideast conflict once and for all. Sounds like a second term for that guy.

2) A shitload of Americans would have a cow

A shitload of Americans will have a cow no matter what anybody proposes about anything.

3) Other immigrants would also want preferential treatment and we'd be hard pressed to deny them in court.

Blah, blah, blah, problems, problems, problems.

Look guys, there is no solution to such a longstanding conflict that won't involve problems and complaints.

Thus, when you say, "there is a problem, so the plan stinks" you are using the sloppiest of reasoning.

4) You haven't asked the Israelis if they want to come here.

And you haven't asked me if I want to read your post. So %^&%$# what???

 

[flacaltenn]

Hey Typist -- Let's not get off on the wrong foot here. I admire you tossing this out there. And you are doing MORE creative brainstorming than JF Kerrey right now.

All you're interested in is defeating me. This is revealed by the lack of any constructive proposal of your own.

I have plenty of ideas to help settle the issues in the region.. But they all start with the recognition that the keys to peace are not all in Israels' hands. Or America's ..

So there is no mocking here. No attempt to "defeat you".. I just wanted to think this through and see where it leads before we get into OTHER plans.. There's always some value in every proposed solution..

For instance -- Same concept of transplanting Israel. Offer a SOVEREIGN piece of land where ISRAEL can exist.. That would piss off a lot of traditional Zionists, but maybe it's an offer they cant' refuse..

There's a lot of Kurds right now who would JUMP at the idea for a joint Kurdish/Jewish sanctuary..

 

[Typist2]

Hey Typist -- Let's not get off on the wrong foot here. I admire you tossing this out there. And you are doing MORE creative brainstorming than JF Kerrey right now.

Ok, fair enough. I apologize for some rhetorical excess, which is my bad, but must admit I find it tiresome to deal with thread clogging objections which can be dismissed as fast as I can type.

I welcome constructive attempts to improve the plan, or replace it with a better one. It doesn't matter to me if it is my plan which makes Israeli Jews safe. I'm not running for office or anything.

I have plenty of ideas to help settle the issues in the region.. But they all start with the recognition that the keys to peace are not all in Israels' hands.

Are you saying the Arabs or Palestinians need to do this or do that before Israeli Jews can be secure? Is that your point?

If yes, then respectfully, you have just made Israel dependent upon it's enemies.

Can you explain why this is a benefit?

For instance -- Same concept of transplanting Israel. Offer a SOVEREIGN piece of land where ISRAEL can exist.. That would piss off a lot of traditional Zionists, but maybe it's an offer they cant' refuse..

Ok, who is going to give this piece of sovereign land to Israeli Jews?

A sovereign land outside of the Middle East, somewhere much safer, would be a step in the right direction, agreed. However, Israel would still be a tiny country.

Imho, the only thing better than having a close alliance with the world's most powerful nation is to...

Be the world's most powerful nation.

That is, I reason the Jews will be safer as American citizens than they can ever be as citizens of a tiny country, where ever that country may be.

Some future American administration might turn it's back on Israel (where ever it is) but they are not going to turn their back on America.

I do realize that my proposal requires a sacrifice of some deeply held dreams, but I reason that is better than a Second Holocaust, which I feel will be the inevitable result of allowing the Mideast conflict to endlessly continue.

I reason that Israel will never give the Palestinians true freedom, and thus the conflict can not be resolved, the goals of each party can not be reached within the current paradigm. Something dramatic has to be done, or the result will be something far worse than my plan.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Are you really John Kerry?

Yes, but my boss won't let me use my real name here, so don't tell anybody, ok?

In any case, that is a version of Zionism I could get behind.

I'm hoping to find Israelis who will respond. I'm sure there will be objections from some, and I'd like to learn what points they will make. If anybody can suggest Israeli or Palestinian online communities where I might post this, please share the link.

Whoops! I see Obama coming down the hall, gotta go!

So basically, you offer Peace if the Israelis will surrender unconditionally and flee their lands? Well, that's damned big of you. Kind of like the armed robber who offers your life if you will only part with all your money.

There can be peace today - IF the Muzzie Beasts stop attacking. You clearly hold to the "One Grain" policy of Arafat, that "not one grain of sand that was ever Muslim land can be controlled by infidels." You are another Muslim supremacist demand that all people bow and submit to Islam.

Now REAL peace is simply that Muslims stop attacking - no more rockets, no more rape, no more murder.

BUT I have a "peace plan" similar to the one you proposed: nuke Mecca.

Melt Allah to slag and no more reason for Muslims to fight. Reduce the Kaaba to dust, cause the Black Stone, the idol of Allah, to be no more, and that is the end of Islam - the end of the war that churns in the middle east.

My proposal is EXACTLY as reasonable as yours.

 

[flacaltenn]

Are you saying the Arabs or Palestinians need to do this or do that before Israeli Jews can be secure? Is that your point?

If yes, then respectfully, you have just made Israel dependent upon it's enemies.

Can you explain why this is a benefit?

It's not a benefit.. It's a fact of the impasse. And it's absolutely my point because these are the facts on the ground.

1) Palestinians have fought EACH OTHER for control of Gaza and the Pal. Authority. Winning an election there means you can kill and rout your political enemies. If you notice, there hasn't been an election since -- because elections to Palestinians are something they do to make WESTERNERS happy..

2) The "leadership" of the Palestinian territories is severely split and fractured. Israel has no use for negotiating with Hamas and for that matter neither does Egypt.

3) The entire "west bank" region was literally GIVEN to Israel when the King of Jordan washed his hands of the Palestinians. They had not made great Jordanian citizens even tho he spent BILLIONS on infrastructure and gave them representation in the Govt. JORDAN, Lebanon and Egypt and more of the Arab League SHOULD be taking a stronger role in guaranteeing Pali sovereignty, but they actually care less about a "solution" than Israel does.

The problems in the region are MUCH LARGER than the existence of a Jewish state. As you can see on the news this evening --- they are killing EACH OTHER in a most unpleasant way without Israel even being a factor. And if Israel didn't exist -- they would be killing each other in Palestine as well.

It doesn't benefit Israel that Arabs dont value democracy or elected leadership or commerce or development. But it really isn't THEIR ISSUE.. They have transformed the land and people that is Israel. And they do quite well --- even with the poorly executed "occupation" of the West Bank and the necessary sanctions against the terrorist Hamas leadership in Gaza.. The solution there depends on the Palestinians DEMANDING leadership that will give them peace and prosperity. And Israel will fully negotiate with those folks..

 

[Typist2]

It's not a benefit.. It's a fact of the impasse.

As my post reveals, depending on Arabs to do this or that in order to secure peace for Jews is not a fact, not a requirement, but a choice. It seems entirely reasonable to question the validity of making one's security policy dependent upon one's enemies.

1) Palestinians have fought EACH OTHER for control of Gaza and the Pal. Authority. Winning an election there means you can kill and rout your political enemies. If you notice, there hasn't been an election since -- because elections to Palestinians are something they do to make WESTERNERS happy..

How does endlessly talking about the Palestinians, and endlessly pointing to problems in their community make the Jews of Israel safer?

If the Palestinians are so violent and corrupt etc, why not forget about them? Why keep depending on Palestinians to do this or that? Why keep using the Palestinians as an excuse, when the Jews hold the ability to reach the peace and security they want and deserve within their own hands?

2) The "leadership" of the Palestinian territories is severely split and fractured. Israel has no use for negotiating with Hamas and for that matter neither does Egypt.

Yes, the Palestinians have all kinds of problems. Who cares? Why make their problems your problem? I'm NOT INTERESTED in the Palestinians, I'm interested in peace and security for the Jewish people.

3) The entire "west bank" region was literally GIVEN to Israel when the King of Jordan washed his hands of the Palestinians. They had not made great Jordanian citizens even tho he spent BILLIONS on infrastructure and gave them representation in the Govt. JORDAN, Lebanon and Egypt and more of the Arab League SHOULD be taking a stronger role in guaranteeing Pali sovereignty, but they actually care less about a "solution" than Israel does.

Apologies, but I don't care about any of this. I have exactly zero interest in endlessly rehashing all the old history and complaints and claims and so forth.

I say this for a very specific reason. Rehashing these subjects over and over and over and over again for decades has not delivered the peace and security the Jewish people deserve. We've been there, we've done that, a million times. It's all failed! Let's try to get over it and move on. Doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results is the definition of stupidity.

The problems in the region are MUCH LARGER than the existence of a Jewish state.

I don't care about the region, I care about the Jewish people finding the peace and security they deserve.

As you can see on the news this evening --- they are killing EACH OTHER in a most unpleasant way without Israel even being a factor. And if Israel didn't exist -- they would be killing each other in Palestine as well.

I don't care about which Arabs are killing which other Arabs, I care about the Jewish people finding the peace and security they deserve.

The solution there depends on the Palestinians DEMANDING leadership that will give them peace and prosperity.

You've just made the peace and security of Israeli Jews dependent on the Palestinians, who you yourself claim to be a highly unreliable group of people.

And Israel will fully negotiate with those folks..

Israel will never give the Palestinians a truly independent state of their own. Israel will always want to control the air space over Palestine, the defense policy of Palestine, the alliances of Palestine, the borders of Palestine and so on.

Israel is willing to negotiate an easing of restrictions, a greater degree of autonomy, a withdrawal of Israeli troops, but not a truly independent Palestine. Israel will never give to the Palestinians what Israelis would demand for themselves, true sovereignty. The Palestinians will never accept such an arrangement, just as the Israelis would not.

And so the conflict will continue endlessly onward, and every day that it does is another day when Jews don't find the peace and security they deserve, and say they want.

A true peace will never be possible between Arabs and Jews in the Middle East, at least not for centuries to come.

 

[Daniyel]

@Typist2
Israel negotiated dozen of times, truly to reach any kind of progress, from Oslo Accords to Olmert's deal and even right now, ceasefire under rockets violating the current ceasefire..
Israel is heaven, its better to make the entire middle east under Israeli control instead of surrendering to terrorists..
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEJK3RHC8PY#t=44[/ame]