A question for my Zionist friends

[Mr.Fitnah]

If you had two buttons and had to push one, one that killed a random innocent Israeli you didn't know, and one that killed some number of random innocent Palestinians you didn't know, how many Palestinians would the second button need to kill before you pushed the first button?

I rather cut my 2 hands then to be responsible for the deaths of innocent people.

How does Islam define innocent?

 

[RevRabbiJCG]

They tie love notes to the stones they throw. I don't know to be honest with you.

 

[Shogun]

lucky us.. another racist jew convinced of his own ethnic superiority.

*yawn*

It's a good thing the US doesn't treat jews like jews in israel treat palis. We'd probably not see as many racist zionists at USMB if that were the case.

 

[MuslimAgorist]

I would choose to push the existence of a race over the extermination of a race by criminals.
Want to play, raghead?

Hello again Gunny. I can tell we're going to be the best of friends. It sure warms my heart that you've been entrusted with administrative authority.

Your assumption fails since there are no innocent Palestinians, they all chose to live where they do and to support terrorism.

A child is innocent. It doesn't chose where it lives. It doesn't support terrorism. (for the record that is the exact argument I use when people claim there are no innocent Israelis because they all live on occupied land.) But in the case of Palestine, over 50% of the population are children.

I rather cut my 2 hands then to be responsible for the deaths of innocent people.

Thank you for that. That's about my feeling about it too.

Are you fricking serious! What's your point of the question

It's a critical thinking question. And I think it's the most important question to any policy which includes collateral damage. I don't only use this question with the Israel/Palestine conflict. You could use it with the Iraq war.

Two Buttons. One kills a random innocent American, the other kills some number of random innocent Iraqis.

You could use it with the drug war

Two Buttons. One kills a random innocent victim of drug related gang activity. The other kills some number of innocent people in botched drug raids.

Whenever you have some conflict that involves the loss of innocent life it's important to have a clear idea what the value of innocent life is, if you value innocent life. And this type of thought experiment reveals the degree to which one values innocent life. It's not my fault if people don't want to face their own answer.

 

[MuslimAgorist]

I must ask you (since you created the criteria), Innocent of what?

That is a really good question. I hadn't much thought about it. I guess I mean innocent of the conflict. Meaning, hasn't caused or intended to cause the loss of civilian life. I suppose you could go further and say, hasn't given any moral support to those who perpetuate the conflict.

I'm not sure what the answer would be, but so long as you use the same measure for both buttons I think you can decide what you consider innocent.

 

[MuslimAgorist]

You have to ask? What a rediculaus question. The last time I checked there was never, ever a nation that was called Palestine with a national capital. Let alone a culture. You must be a terrorist sympathizer and with that, who cares about what you think. If I was President I'd side with the Israelis. After all they never, ever attacked their neighbors without provocation,sadly, is cannot be said the same for her neighbors. It's clear that you ignore the unwarrented rocket attacks that come from Gaza and Lebanon onto Israeli towns. I'd sink any vessel trying to run throug the blockade. I'd send troops to stand along side the IDF. Israel has every right to exsist as a nation. Hamas, Fatah and Hezzbollah haven't figured out that yet. Didn't you know that Israel is still God's Chosen People. and only one who touches His people will suffer His wrath in the world to come. God's Promise has been passed down from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Ishmael has his own land that God gave him. It's obvious that the older brother Ishmael is jealous of the younger Isaac. I'd press the button and wipe out every Palestian until all of them are gone. Oh, incidentally the name Palestine came from the Romans and it mean "Land of the Philistines" They the Romans changed the names of Judah, Samaria and Galilee to Palestine after the final Jewish revolt sometime during the 1st Century AD as a way to see that the Jews never returned to their homeland because of they revolted against the Roman occupiers. Perhaps if you read ancient history instead of denouncing it you might learn something

... seriously... is that sarcasm?

 

[P F Tinmore]

I must ask you (since you created the criteria), Innocent of what?

That is a really good question. I hadn't much thought about it. I guess I mean innocent of the conflict. Meaning, hasn't caused or intended to cause the loss of civilian life. I suppose you could go further and say, hasn't given any moral support to those who perpetuate the conflict.

I'm not sure what the answer would be, but so long as you use the same measure for both buttons I think you can decide what you consider innocent.

It is said that the people in Gaza "get what they deserve" because they support Hamas.

Can it then not be said that the Israelis "get what they deserve" because they support the occupation?

 

[RevRabbiJCG]

Nope try the truth. If you read history of the 20th Century as it is really written and not some made up version that you're hoping for. You'll soon see the truth.

As Ann Coulter put it: A muslim by any other name, blows up just the same.

 

[RevRabbiJCG]

You have to ask? What a rediculaus question. The last time I checked there was never, ever a nation that was called Palestine with a national capital. Let alone a culture. You must be a terrorist sympathizer and with that, who cares about what you think. If I was President I'd side with the Israelis. After all they never, ever attacked their neighbors without provocation,sadly, is cannot be said the same for her neighbors. It's clear that you ignore the unwarrented rocket attacks that come from Gaza and Lebanon onto Israeli towns. I'd sink any vessel trying to run throug the blockade. I'd send troops to stand along side the IDF. Israel has every right to exsist as a nation. Hamas, Fatah and Hezzbollah haven't figured out that yet. Didn't you know that Israel is still God's Chosen People. and only one who touches His people will suffer His wrath in the world to come. God's Promise has been passed down from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Ishmael has his own land that God gave him. It's obvious that the older brother Ishmael is jealous of the younger Isaac. I'd press the button and wipe out every Palestian until all of them are gone. Oh, incidentally the name Palestine came from the Romans and it mean "Land of the Philistines" They the Romans changed the names of Judah, Samaria and Galilee to Palestine after the final Jewish revolt sometime during the 1st Century AD as a way to see that the Jews never returned to their homeland because of they revolted against the Roman occupiers. Perhaps if you read ancient history instead of denouncing it you might learn something

... seriously... is that sarcasm?

I stand by all of my posts, Israel was promised the land that their living in by God Himself to Abraham. There's even archelogical proof that the Jews were there long before any muslim/arab lived. Also, for the record, up to the time Israel became a nation that whole area was nothing more then an arid wasteland, muslims did nothing with it. It wasn't until Israeli's drip irrigation. Also, along with cultivating the land that suddenly muslims wanted the land back and cried not fair.

 

[P F Tinmore]

You have to ask? What a rediculaus question. The last time I checked there was never, ever a nation that was called Palestine with a national capital. Let alone a culture. You must be a terrorist sympathizer and with that, who cares about what you think. If I was President I'd side with the Israelis. After all they never, ever attacked their neighbors without provocation,sadly, is cannot be said the same for her neighbors. It's clear that you ignore the unwarrented rocket attacks that come from Gaza and Lebanon onto Israeli towns. I'd sink any vessel trying to run throug the blockade. I'd send troops to stand along side the IDF. Israel has every right to exsist as a nation. Hamas, Fatah and Hezzbollah haven't figured out that yet. Didn't you know that Israel is still God's Chosen People. and only one who touches His people will suffer His wrath in the world to come. God's Promise has been passed down from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Ishmael has his own land that God gave him. It's obvious that the older brother Ishmael is jealous of the younger Isaac. I'd press the button and wipe out every Palestian until all of them are gone. Oh, incidentally the name Palestine came from the Romans and it mean "Land of the Philistines" They the Romans changed the names of Judah, Samaria and Galilee to Palestine after the final Jewish revolt sometime during the 1st Century AD as a way to see that the Jews never returned to their homeland because of they revolted against the Roman occupiers. Perhaps if you read ancient history instead of denouncing it you might learn something

... seriously... is that sarcasm?

I stand by all of my posts, Israel was promised the land that their living in by God Himself to Abraham. There's even archelogical proof that the Jews were there long before any muslim/arab lived. Also, for the record, up to the time Israel became a nation that whole area was nothing more then an arid wasteland, muslims did nothing with it. It wasn't until Israeli's drip irrigation. Also, along with cultivating the land that suddenly muslims wanted the land back and cried not fair.

WOW. what a pant load!

Palestine had a surplus of food that it exported to surrounding countries and Europe.

 

[Kalam]

If you had two buttons and had to push one, one that killed a random innocent Israeli you didn't know, and one that killed some number of random innocent Palestinians you didn't know, how many Palestinians would the second button need to kill before you pushed the first button?

I would choose to push the existence of a race over the extermination of a race by criminals.

Want to play, raghead?

You're full of shit, Gumby.

 

[Kalam]

If you had two buttons and had to push one, one that killed a random innocent Israeli you didn't know, and one that killed some number of random innocent Palestinians you didn't know, how many Palestinians would the second button need to kill before you pushed the first button?

You have to ask? What a rediculaus question. The last time I checked there was never, ever a nation that was called Palestine with a national capital. Let alone a culture. You must be a terrorist sympathizer and with that, who cares about what you think. If I was President I'd side with the Israelis. After all they never, ever attacked their neighbors without provocation,sadly, is cannot be said the same for her neighbors. It's clear that you ignore the unwarrented rocket attacks that come from Gaza and Lebanon onto Israeli towns. I'd sink any vessel trying to run throug the blockade. I'd send troops to stand along side the IDF. Israel has every right to exsist as a nation. Hamas, Fatah and Hezzbollah haven't figured out that yet. Didn't you know that Israel is still God's Chosen People. and only one who touches His people will suffer His wrath in the world to come. God's Promise has been passed down from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Ishmael has his own land that God gave him. It's obvious that the older brother Ishmael is jealous of the younger Isaac. I'd press the button and wipe out every Palestian until all of them are gone. Oh, incidentally the name Palestine came from the Romans and it mean "Land of the Philistines" They the Romans changed the names of Judah, Samaria and Galilee to Palestine after the final Jewish revolt sometime during the 1st Century AD as a way to see that the Jews never returned to their homeland because of they revolted against the Roman occupiers. Perhaps if you read ancient history instead of denouncing it you might learn something

God doesn't have a favorite ethnicity, Herr Rabbi. How dare you impute your petty, racist ideology to the Beneficent?

 

[MuslimAgorist]

I stand by all of my posts, Israel was promised the land that their living in by God Himself to Abraham. There's even archelogical proof that the Jews were there long before any muslim/arab lived. Also, for the record, up to the time Israel became a nation that whole area was nothing more then an arid wasteland, muslims did nothing with it. It wasn't until Israeli's drip irrigation. Also, along with cultivating the land that suddenly muslims wanted the land back and cried not fair.

Awesome! Ok. Help me out here. Because I don't often meet people from the "God gave me this land" crowd who will actually cop up to that position. Let me see if I understand. And please, correct me if I have it wrong.

Thousands of years ago a people settled in a land by God's instruction. Then those people were exiled from that land as various empires throughout the ages conquered and reconquered it, and the people settled throughout the world. Finally one benevolent empire, the British Empire, gifted the land back to their distant ancestors who began resettling the land.

Do I have that right? Because I have a lot of questions.

1) When one of these people, lets say you, returns to that land and discovers someone living there, lets say me hypothetically, and you tell me you own my land because God gave it to your distant ancestor, and I'm confused, and refuse to leave, what should happen to me?

2) When you tell me that God gave you the land, and I should leave, do you intend that to be a persuasive argument that I should believe and vacate voluntarily, or do you just mean to explain to me why you are forcing me to leave?

3) Do you consider Israel a theocracy? What does it mean to be a "Jewish State"?

4) What's the deal with the Messiah? My understanding, and please correct me if I'm wrong, is that the Messiah in Judaism is supposed to reestablish the State of Israel. How is that supposed to happen if it's already been established?

5) If the Jews were the rightful owners of the land all along, even without the Messiah, were there other attempts throughout history to establish it?

6) If the legitimacy of Israel comes from God, how much land did God give them? What are the legitimate Biblical boundaries? If those boundaries include territory not currently ruled by Israel what should happen when the current inhabitants refuse to leave?

I know that's ignoring huge parts of the conflict. But I'm trying to go back in time a little and understand the principles you're applying. I have many more questions, but I don't want to overwhelm you.

 

[RevRabbiJCG]

... seriously... is that sarcasm?

I stand by all of my posts, Israel was promised the land that their living in by God Himself to Abraham. There's even archelogical proof that the Jews were there long before any muslim/arab lived. Also, for the record, up to the time Israel became a nation that whole area was nothing more then an arid wasteland, muslims did nothing with it. It wasn't until Israeli's drip irrigation. Also, along with cultivating the land that suddenly muslims wanted the land back and cried not fair.

WOW. what a pant load!

Palestine had a surplus of food that it exported to surrounding countries and Europe.

Yes, food and only food is allowed into the Gaza Strip, no weapons, or anything that could be possibly used as a weapon isn't.
Israel does, in fact; have a right to defend herself against the ilk who want to destroy her out of religous reasons only. And is willing to do whatever it takes to achieve that goal.

 

[P F Tinmore]

I stand by all of my posts, Israel was promised the land that their living in by God Himself to Abraham. There's even archelogical proof that the Jews were there long before any muslim/arab lived. Also, for the record, up to the time Israel became a nation that whole area was nothing more then an arid wasteland, muslims did nothing with it. It wasn't until Israeli's drip irrigation. Also, along with cultivating the land that suddenly muslims wanted the land back and cried not fair.

WOW. what a pant load!

Palestine had a surplus of food that it exported to surrounding countries and Europe.

Yes, food and only food is allowed into the Gaza Strip, no weapons, or anything that could be possibly used as a weapon isn't.
Israel does, in fact; have a right to defend herself against the ilk who want to destroy her out of religous reasons only. And is willing to do whatever it takes to achieve that goal.

This is not a religious conflict.

 

[ekrem]

Your assumption fails since there are no innocent Palestinians, they all chose to live where they do and to support terrorism.

What a nice little wonder-world you have drawn for your self.
Maybe you add this into your wonder-world:
How about all Americans are Abu Ghraib-ists and Hiroshima-ists?

 

[daveman]

If you had two buttons and had to push one, one that killed a random innocent Israeli you didn't know, and one that killed some number of random innocent Palestinians you didn't know, how many Palestinians would the second button need to kill before you pushed the first button?

That's an interesting question about the relative worth of human beings. I'd like to ask you a question about it:

When prisoners are transferred between Israel and her enemies, the ratio is usually one Israeli in exchange for dozens, sometimes hundreds of Arabs.

Since these trades are endorsed by the Arabs' leadership, isn't that an admission that one Israeli is as valuable as hundreds of Arabs?

And a follow-up: Aren't you offended that the Arab leadership thinks so little of your brethren? I think you should be.

 

[RevRabbiJCG]

If you had two buttons and had to push one, one that killed a random innocent Israeli you didn't know, and one that killed some number of random innocent Palestinians you didn't know, how many Palestinians would the second button need to kill before you pushed the first button?

You have to ask? What a rediculaus question. The last time I checked there was never, ever a nation that was called Palestine with a national capital. Let alone a culture. You must be a terrorist sympathizer and with that, who cares about what you think. If I was President I'd side with the Israelis. After all they never, ever attacked their neighbors without provocation,sadly, is cannot be said the same for her neighbors. It's clear that you ignore the unwarrented rocket attacks that come from Gaza and Lebanon onto Israeli towns. I'd sink any vessel trying to run throug the blockade. I'd send troops to stand along side the IDF. Israel has every right to exsist as a nation. Hamas, Fatah and Hezzbollah haven't figured out that yet. Didn't you know that Israel is still God's Chosen People. and only one who touches His people will suffer His wrath in the world to come. God's Promise has been passed down from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Ishmael has his own land that God gave him. It's obvious that the older brother Ishmael is jealous of the younger Isaac. I'd press the button and wipe out every Palestian until all of them are gone. Oh, incidentally the name Palestine came from the Romans and it mean "Land of the Philistines" They the Romans changed the names of Judah, Samaria and Galilee to Palestine after the final Jewish revolt sometime during the 1st Century AD as a way to see that the Jews never returned to their homeland because of they revolted against the Roman occupiers. Perhaps if you read ancient history instead of denouncing it you might learn something

God doesn't have a favorite ethnicity, Herr Rabbi. How dare you impute your petty, racist ideology to the Beneficent?

The last time I checked muslin run around claiming that they are the inheriter of what God once bestowed upon the Jews and Christians. Such nonsence, and mindless dribble. You need a reality check.
According the even the dictionary, and encyclopedias "Palestine" is a name given to a geographical location, and it's root meaning has to do with the Philistines a "sea peoples" who, in fact; hail from Greece and are Greek in nature. The folks who live in the land so aptly name after the Philistine invaders are Arabs and have nothing to do with the Philistines. The Philistines power was broken under the reign of David ben Jesse, king of Israel and Judah (United Kingdm) and later absorbed and lost their national identity when the Babylonias conquered the land back in 580 B.C.
Before that "palestine was named Canaan after the inhabitance, who; were a mix of local city/state semetic people, like the Hebrew race. I bet you didn't know that the Israelis are a Semetic people (Decendence of Shem son of Noah)
So, there you have it. I gave you a short summary of land name "Palestine", so, therefore, you can either swallow you moronic muslim pride and admit I told you the truth and gave you resources to where you can find it, or remain ignorant in you foolish religious hypocracy. Good Day!

Oh, by the way, the blessings of God belong to His Chosen elect, And the blessings went from Abraham, then to Isaac, then to Jacob. Ishmael Isaac half brother got their own land, of which God had promised to Hagar. That's right I know all about the squabble.

 

[RevRabbiJCG]

Your assumption fails since there are no innocent Palestinians, they all chose to live where they do and to support terrorism.

What a nice little wonder-world you have drawn for your self.
Maybe you add this into your wonder-world:
How about all Americans are Abu Ghraib-ists and Hiroshima-ists?

I'll make an counter offer. Why don't we make a talley of all the terrorist acts done by muslims in the name of Islam, and for Islam's sake. Then we'll do a talley of terrorist acts done by other in the name of conquering the enemy in the act of war.
Remember December 7, 1941, a date which will live in infamy. Now, it's September 11, 2001 a date which will live in infamy as well.

 

[RevRabbiJCG]

WOW. what a pant load!

Palestine had a surplus of food that it exported to surrounding countries and Europe.

Yes, food and only food is allowed into the Gaza Strip, no weapons, or anything that could be possibly used as a weapon isn't.
Israel does, in fact; have a right to defend herself against the ilk who want to destroy her out of religous reasons only. And is willing to do whatever it takes to achieve that goal.

This is not a religious conflict.

really? The last time I checked a jihad is a "holy war" which translated a religious war against the infidels (non-believers)
I find your comment laughable.