A Positive Look at Islam

[Hister]

A positive look at Islam: through the target scope of a B-2 nuclear bomber.

 

[José]

Originally posted by Ringel05
Don't omit or underestimate the totalitarianism of the secular.

Enlighten us on the totalitarian aspects of secularism, Ringel.

I'm all ears.

 

[Ringel05]

Originally posted by Ringel05
Don't omit or underestimate the totalitarianism of the secular.

Enlighten us on the totalitarian aspects of secularism, Ringel.

I'm all ears.

Obviously history isn't one of your strong points is it. No, I'm not going to reteach that which you slept through in school and probably never took if you went to college. Do your own research or stay stupid, the choice is yours.
Oh and using you ears won't work here but then you knew that right?

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Originally posted by Ringel05
Don't omit or underestimate the totalitarianism of the secular.

Enlighten us on the totalitarian aspects of secularism, Ringel.

I'm all ears.

Obviously history isn't one of your strong points is it. No, I'm not going to reteach that which you slept through in school and probably never took if you went to college. Do your own research or stay stupid, the choice is yours.
Oh and using you ears won't work here but then you knew that right?

Google historians have opinions about everything, but their knowledge is as deep as piss on a hot rock.

 

[Ringel05]

Enlighten us on the totalitarian aspects of secularism, Ringel.

I'm all ears.

Obviously history isn't one of your strong points is it. No, I'm not going to reteach that which you slept through in school and probably never took if you went to college. Do your own research or stay stupid, the choice is yours.
Oh and using you ears won't work here but then you knew that right?

Google historians have opinions about everything, but their knowledge is as deep as piss on a hot rock.

I was thinking more along the lines of college classes, books on the subject and library document research that that would be to hard for some.

 

[José]

What the hell is wrong with Fitnah?

The guy spend most of his time lambasting the muslim religion and when someone jumps in defending the secular state he turn his guns on him.

I for one will never thrash the muslim faith that I'm sure will continue to bring solace to millions of people for centuries to come.

I'll only speak against the totalitarian theocratic scum of any stripe that uses the liberties afforded to them by the secular state with the ultimate objective of destroying the secular state.

PS: For those of you who say regimes of religious governance are inextricably embedded in the teachings of the Koran, I say, who cares??

For all practical purposes since the dawn of our species religions are what their followers CHOOSE TO EMPHASISE.

 

[José]

Ringel

I'll address your post later because now I'm gonna watch George Romero's eternal zombie classic "Night of the Living Dead".

 

[Ringel05]

What the hell is wrong with Fitnah?

The guy spend most of his time lambasting the muslim religion and when someone jumps in defending the secular state he turn his guns on him.

I for one will never thrash the muslim faith that I'm sure will continue to bring solace to millions of people for centuries to come.

I'll only speak against the totalitarian theocratic scum of any stripe that uses the liberties afforded to them by the secular state with the ultimate objective of destroying the secular state.

PS: For those of you who say regimes of religious governance are inextricably embedded in the teachings of the Koran, I say, who cares??

For all practical purposes since the dawn of our species religions are what their followers CHOOSE TO EMPHASISE.

Well you didn't make that distinction clear the first time. But why are you limiting your scope of knowledge even here? You obviously rail against "religions" yet give pass to Islamists in your statement above. Can you say hypocrite? I knew you could.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

José aren't you curious to see what comes after "sucks off goats" in your rep

 

[José]

Originally posted by Mr.Fitnah
José aren't you curious to see what comes after "sucks off goats" in your rep

I've been there, Fitnah. When I had two red blots instead of one the message was "José is off the cale" or something.

I was not massively pos-repped since then. Someone stole one of my red blots!!

 

[José]

Originally posted by Ringel05
I guess my direction here is Islam and Muslims are viewed by a freedom loving west, (as defined in western, secular terms), as invaders with the goal of eventually replacing western values and freedom with (what westerners view) a repressive theocracy.

Originally posted by Ringel05
Don't omit or underestimate the totalitarianism of the secular.

Ringel

You seem to the sympathetic to something called cultural/moral relativism:

"There is no REAL repression either in secular states or theocracies. Only subjective perceptions of repression perceived by Westerners and people in Arab countries according to their cultural background".

So let's do a reality check here (not theories, not abstract concepts... just cold, hard facts):

1 - In the US every religious denomination has the right to express their faith and proselytise freely from pamphlets to the acquisition of magazines, newspapers, TV and radio channels.

1 - In theocratic states "non-official" religious denominations are prohibited to worship freely (at worst) or prevented from proselytising at "best".
________________________________________________________________________

2 - Muslim, Buddhist, atheist and agnostic american citizens do not see their tax payer money being squandered on the building of churches and religious schools neither in America nor in the rest of the world. Their money is generally spent on the construction of infrastructure (bridges, roads, etc...)

2 - In theocratic states part of the taxes paid by religious minorities and irreligious people are appropriated by the state to fund a series of activities whose sole purpose is the propagation of the state religion (see Saudi Arabia, Iran and Tibet pre-chinese invasion: tax-payer money being wasted all over the world on religious buildings and to maintain the religious bureaucracy). They are forced to contribute for the propagation of a religion they do not believe in.
_______________________________________________________________________

3 - Religious citizens in the US are totally free to conduct their personal lives the way they see fit without any fear of punishment by the state.

3 - Irreligious people in theocracies live under the constant threat of government intrusion in their personal lives (punishment for adultery, casual sex, etc, etc...)
______________________________________________________________________

Now I ask the members of the USMB:

Are these real differences in the degree of freedom and repression observed in secular and theocratic states or just "subjective, cultural perceptions" as Ringel seems inclined to believe?

The answer is self-evident.

Democratic, open, free societies are not only about the will of the majority but also the protection of minorities.

99% percent of support for theocracy in Iran does not give the Iranian people the right to impose religious laws even on that tiny minority just like the vast majority of irreligious Swedes don't have a right to deny freedom of religion to the religious minority. Both peoples can certainly impose it by brute force in which case you have a theocracy and an atheist (not secular) state but they surely don't have any moral right to do it.

The theocratic social contract is not a contract between equals like the secular one. It's an authoritarian social pact in which the followers of the "official" religion believe the divine origin of their sacred book OVERRIDES the right of the rest of the citizenry to conduct their personal lives in accordance to their own religion or conscience.

That's why I said theocracies are totalitarian political systems to the bone.

Theocracies are clearly based on dehumanisation of their religious minorities and ireligious citizens.

Palestinian islamic groups dehumanise the jewish population of Israel by supporting the creation of a theocratic state in Palestine that will rule despite the strong opposition of all the other ethnic groups as well as millions of secular arabs.

Everytime a plane arrives in Tehran you see dozens of Iranian ladies putting on the hijab, being dehumanised by a theocracy that disrespects their personal lives.

There are thousands of atheists, agnostic and irreligious Saudis who can't even express their religious inclinations (or lack thereof) or criticise the Saudi theocracy in public for fear of retaliation. These are the "invisible" Saudis you will never hear about in the Western press.

 

[José]

Ringel

I know your cultural relativism and your "there are equal amounts of good and bad in both systems" attitude is a well-intentioned attempt to be "fair", "impartial" with both secularism and theocracy.

I also try my best to be fair and impartial with religion and religious people. It's the right thing to do BUT NOT AT THE COST OF DISTORTING REALITY!!

Drop your misguided attempts to establish moral equivalence between secularism and theocracy and see what's in front of your eyes!!!!!

Religious minorities and secular oriented people living in theocracies are oppressed and dehumanised by the religious state.

Religious citizens living in secular states are not!!