A Letter to Phil Robertson

[Leweman]

Guy, you skipped over my point.

The problem was that you all claim that Jesus came down to redeem orignial sin. Okay. But original sin was at best a metaphor and at worst a non-event. There was no Adam and Eve.

I also find the whole notion of "dying for my sins" to be rather offensive. I never agreed to tht and frankly would reject it to start with.

If Jesus was here to tell us right from wrong and purposely ignored the biggest wrong going on all around him, then shame on him, really.

Or he was just a first century crazy person who didn't speak out against slavery because, heck, Slavery has always been here and if you aren't a slave, it's not a problem.

Original sin has nothing to do with you and me. Because we're human we all have sinned. Babies, especially the unborn, cannot sin. According to Jesus they are blameless. That is why killing them in the womb is such a terrible sin.

Look, I'm no expert on the scriptures. I'm just relating this as I understand it.

If Abortion was such a terrible sin, why was it not ONCE condemned anywhere in the Bible?

Original sin is one of those sticking points... because of mysticism they tried to stick on old myths.

I'm not a big Bible guy but though shall not kill isn't in the Bible?

 

[JoeB131]

Original sin has nothing to do with you and me. Because we're human we all have sinned. Babies, especially the unborn, cannot sin. According to Jesus they are blameless. That is why killing them in the womb is such a terrible sin.

Look, I'm no expert on the scriptures. I'm just relating this as I understand it.

If Abortion was such a terrible sin, why was it not ONCE condemned anywhere in the Bible?

Original sin is one of those sticking points... because of mysticism they tried to stick on old myths.

It's in there many times:

"Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves,
for the rights of all who are destitute."
Proverbs 31:8 (NIV)

"If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him;
and he shall pay as the judges determine.
And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe."
Exodus 21:22-25 (KJV)

"Thou shalt not kill."
Exodus 20:13 (KJV)

"Can a woman forget her sucking child,
that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb?
yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee.
Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands;
thy walls are continually before me."
Isaiah 49:15-16 (KJV)

Guy, not a ONE of those condemns abortion, and the Exodus 21 verse indicates that causing a miscarriage (or as it is called medically, "a spontanous abortion" is a crime ONLY worthy of a fine.

As opposed to working on the Sabbath or having the gay sex, which were death penalty offenses.

Cause an abortion. Meh, a fine.

Again- if Abortion was such a specific sin, it should be spelled out in the bible as such.

But quite the contrary, the bible calls for murdering pregnant women if they got pregnant through adultery.

 

[JoeB131]

Original sin has nothing to do with you and me. Because we're human we all have sinned. Babies, especially the unborn, cannot sin. According to Jesus they are blameless. That is why killing them in the womb is such a terrible sin.

Look, I'm no expert on the scriptures. I'm just relating this as I understand it.

If Abortion was such a terrible sin, why was it not ONCE condemned anywhere in the Bible?

Original sin is one of those sticking points... because of mysticism they tried to stick on old myths.

I'm not a big Bible guy but though shall not kill isn't in the Bible?

Again, where is the specific admonition against it in the bible.

God has no problem with killing in the bible, BTW. There's a whole lot of stuff they can kill you for.

 

[mudwhistle]

If Abortion was such a terrible sin, why was it not ONCE condemned anywhere in the Bible?

Original sin is one of those sticking points... because of mysticism they tried to stick on old myths.

It's in there many times:

"Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves,
for the rights of all who are destitute."
Proverbs 31:8 (NIV)

"If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him;
and he shall pay as the judges determine.
And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe."
Exodus 21:22-25 (KJV)

"Thou shalt not kill."
Exodus 20:13 (KJV)

"Can a woman forget her sucking child,
that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb?
yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee.
Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands;
thy walls are continually before me."
Isaiah 49:15-16 (KJV)

Guy, not a ONE of those condemns abortion, and the Exodus 21 verse indicates that causing a miscarriage (or as it is called medically, "a spontanous abortion" is a crime ONLY worthy of a fine.

As opposed to working on the Sabbath or having the gay sex, which were death penalty offenses.

Cause an abortion. Meh, a fine.

Again- if Abortion was such a specific sin, it should be spelled out in the bible as such.

But quite the contrary, the bible calls for murdering pregnant women if they got pregnant through adultery.

Abortion is the same as causing a miscarriage.

And quote the scripture that murdering a pregnant woman is called for.

 

[Leweman]

If Abortion was such a terrible sin, why was it not ONCE condemned anywhere in the Bible?

Original sin is one of those sticking points... because of mysticism they tried to stick on old myths.

I'm not a big Bible guy but though shall not kill isn't in the Bible?

Again, where is the specific admonition against it in the bible.

God has no problem with killing in the bible, BTW. There's a whole lot of stuff they can kill you for.

I'm not defending the bible. My belief system isn't based on it. I'm just saying it could be placed under the thou shall not kill category. I have no doubt the bible contradicts itself all throughout.

 

[JoeB131]

It's in there many times:

Guy, not a ONE of those condemns abortion, and the Exodus 21 verse indicates that causing a miscarriage (or as it is called medically, "a spontanous abortion" is a crime ONLY worthy of a fine.

As opposed to working on the Sabbath or having the gay sex, which were death penalty offenses.

Cause an abortion. Meh, a fine.

Again- if Abortion was such a specific sin, it should be spelled out in the bible as such.

But quite the contrary, the bible calls for murdering pregnant women if they got pregnant through adultery.

Abortion is the same as causing a miscarriage.

Which is my point. Causing a miscarriage was only worthy of a fine to the Hebrews.

And quote the scripture that murdering a pregnant woman is called for.

Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she is with child by whoredom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt. -- Genesis 38:24

 

[JoeB131]

I'm not a big Bible guy but though shall not kill isn't in the Bible?

Again, where is the specific admonition against it in the bible.

God has no problem with killing in the bible, BTW. There's a whole lot of stuff they can kill you for.

I'm not defending the bible. My belief system isn't based on it. I'm just saying it could be placed under the thou shall not kill category. I have no doubt the bible contradicts itself all throughout.

That would work if the bible considered a fetus the same as a person.

In fact, it didn't even consider infants the same as a person, as newborns under a month old were not even counted in the census.

Number the children of Levi after the house of their fathers, by their families: every male from a month old and upward shalt thou number them. And Moses numbered them according to the word of the LORD. -- Numbers 3:15-16

 

[PoliticalChic]

Original sin has nothing to do with you and me. Because we're human we all have sinned. Babies, especially the unborn, cannot sin. According to Jesus they are blameless. That is why killing them in the womb is such a terrible sin.

Look, I'm no expert on the scriptures. I'm just relating this as I understand it.

If Abortion was such a terrible sin, why was it not ONCE condemned anywhere in the Bible?

Original sin is one of those sticking points... because of mysticism they tried to stick on old myths.

I'm not a big Bible guy but though shall not kill isn't in the Bible?

"Murder," not "kill."

'Else war would be proscribed.

 

[mudwhistle]

Guy, not a ONE of those condemns abortion, and the Exodus 21 verse indicates that causing a miscarriage (or as it is called medically, "a spontanous abortion" is a crime ONLY worthy of a fine.

As opposed to working on the Sabbath or having the gay sex, which were death penalty offenses.

Cause an abortion. Meh, a fine.

Again- if Abortion was such a specific sin, it should be spelled out in the bible as such.

But quite the contrary, the bible calls for murdering pregnant women if they got pregnant through adultery.

Abortion is the same as causing a miscarriage.

Which is my point. Causing a miscarriage was only worthy of a fine to the Hebrews.

And quote the scripture that murdering a pregnant woman is called for.

Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she is with child by whoredom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt. -- Genesis 38:24

You are under the misconception that everything that happened in the Bible was God's will or some sort of law he put down. Was paganism during the time of Noah God's will?

 

[PoliticalChic]

If Abortion was such a terrible sin, why was it not ONCE condemned anywhere in the Bible?

Original sin is one of those sticking points... because of mysticism they tried to stick on old myths.

I'm not a big Bible guy but though shall not kill isn't in the Bible?

Again, where is the specific admonition against it in the bible.

God has no problem with killing in the bible, BTW. There's a whole lot of stuff they can kill you for.

You couldn't be more wrong.


You could try....but you'd be unsuccessful.



1. Genesis 9:6 prescribed the death penalty for murder when it said that if a man “shed the blood” of another man, by man must his blood be shed.
The only law repeated in all five of the books of the old testament.
The death penalty is a value, values are eternal, as opposed to customs or traditions, such as stoning for adultery.


2. Exodus 21:12-14
Leviticus 24:17 and 21
Numbers 35:16-18 and Numbers 35:31
Deuteronomy 19:11-13

 

[mudwhistle]

Again, where is the specific admonition against it in the bible.

God has no problem with killing in the bible, BTW. There's a whole lot of stuff they can kill you for.

I'm not defending the bible. My belief system isn't based on it. I'm just saying it could be placed under the thou shall not kill category. I have no doubt the bible contradicts itself all throughout.

That would work if the bible considered a fetus the same as a person.

In fact, it didn't even consider infants the same as a person, as newborns under a month old were not even counted in the census.

Number the children of Levi after the house of their fathers, by their families: every male from a month old and upward shalt thou number them. And Moses numbered them according to the word of the LORD. -- Numbers 3:15-16

You must think that someone can be numbered before they are born. Too many things go wrong during childbirth for that to make any sense. Especially back thousands of years ago.

 

[JoeB131]

I'm not a big Bible guy but though shall not kill isn't in the Bible?

Again, where is the specific admonition against it in the bible.

God has no problem with killing in the bible, BTW. There's a whole lot of stuff they can kill you for.

You couldn't be more wrong.

You could try....but you'd be unsuccessful.

1. Genesis 9:6 prescribed the death penalty for murder when it said that if a man “shed the blood” of another man, by man must his blood be shed.
The only law repeated in all five of the books of the old testament.
The death penalty is a value, values are eternal, as opposed to customs or traditions, such as stoning for adultery.


2. Exodus 21:12-14
Leviticus 24:17 and 21
Numbers 35:16-18 and Numbers 35:31
Deuteronomy 19:11-13

Here's a list of all the things they can execute you for in the bible...


For Adultery

And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. -- Leviticus 20:10

For Animals

If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned. -- Exodus 21:28

For Beastiality


Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death. -- Exodus 22:19

And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast. -- Leviticus 20:15

And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. -- Leviticus 20:16

For Blasphemy

He that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him. -- Leviticus 24:16

For Breaking the Sabbath

Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death. -- Exodus 31:14

Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. -- Exodus 31:15

Six days shall work bedone, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death. -- Exodus 35:2

For Disobedient children


He that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death. -- Exodus 21:15

He that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death. -- Exodus 21:17

For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him. -- Leviticus 20:9

For Homosexuality

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. -- Leviticus 20:13

For Incest

And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. -- Leviticus 20:11

And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death: they have wrought confusion; their blood shall be upon them. -- Leviticus 20:12

And if a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you. -- Leviticus 20:14

For Murder

Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed. -- Genesis 9:6

For Rape Victims who don't cry out loudly enough

If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you. -- Deuteronomy 22:23-24

For Stealing Slaves

He that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death. -- Exodus 21:16

For not being a Virgin on the night of the wedding

If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her ... and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate.... But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.-- Deuteronomy 22:13-22

For Witches

Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. -- Exodus 22:18

For Worshipping another god

He that sacrificeth unto any god save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed. -- Exodus 22:20

 

[PoliticalChic]

Again, where is the specific admonition against it in the bible.

God has no problem with killing in the bible, BTW. There's a whole lot of stuff they can kill you for.

You couldn't be more wrong.

You could try....but you'd be unsuccessful.

1. Genesis 9:6 prescribed the death penalty for murder when it said that if a man “shed the blood” of another man, by man must his blood be shed.
The only law repeated in all five of the books of the old testament.
The death penalty is a value, values are eternal, as opposed to customs or traditions, such as stoning for adultery.


2. Exodus 21:12-14
Leviticus 24:17 and 21
Numbers 35:16-18 and Numbers 35:31
Deuteronomy 19:11-13

Here's a list of all the things they can execute you for in the bible...


For Adultery

And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. -- Leviticus 20:10

For Animals

If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned. -- Exodus 21:28

For Beastiality


Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death. -- Exodus 22:19

And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast. -- Leviticus 20:15

And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. -- Leviticus 20:16

For Blasphemy

He that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him. -- Leviticus 24:16

For Breaking the Sabbath

Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death. -- Exodus 31:14

Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. -- Exodus 31:15

Six days shall work bedone, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death. -- Exodus 35:2

For Disobedient children


He that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death. -- Exodus 21:15

He that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death. -- Exodus 21:17

For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him. -- Leviticus 20:9

For Homosexuality

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. -- Leviticus 20:13

For Incest

And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. -- Leviticus 20:11

And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death: they have wrought confusion; their blood shall be upon them. -- Leviticus 20:12

And if a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you. -- Leviticus 20:14

For Murder

Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed. -- Genesis 9:6

For Rape Victims who don't cry out loudly enough

If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you. -- Deuteronomy 22:23-24

For Stealing Slaves

He that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death. -- Exodus 21:16

For not being a Virgin on the night of the wedding

If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her ... and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate.... But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.-- Deuteronomy 22:13-22

For Witches

Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. -- Exodus 22:18

For Worshipping another god

He that sacrificeth unto any god save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed. -- Exodus 22:20

I understand your desire to change the subject.

My post referred to the death penalty for the murder of another human being.


And this.... "Capital punishment is to the whole society what self-defense is to the individual."
The Ethics of Life and Death J.P. Moreland, p. 115.



Did you intend to actually speak to the substance of my post....or, to do the honorable thing and simply genuflect in my direction?




In the spirit of the season....this advice: you will take a terrible beating if you try to show my point to be wrong.

 

[JoeB131]

I'm not even sure what point you are trying to make.

Capital punishment is barbaric, no matter what the crime.

 

[PoliticalChic]

I'm not even sure what point you are trying to make.

Capital punishment is barbaric, no matter what the crime.

"I'm not even sure what point you are trying to make."

What is that, 'argument as dope'?
You know very well what point I have made...and proven.



Capital punishment is appropriate.
It is murder that is barbaric.

It is the correct sentence for the crime of murder.

And it is accepted as such in both the Old and New Testaments.





1. This is the great contribution of our Judeo-Christian foundation to Western civilization. The principles of justice are laid down in the Torah and the Gospels, and implemented through human actions memorialized in judicial codes.

a. The written laws and rules are codifications of the unwritten ones worked out over millennia as the result of human interactions and experience.

2. The Bible is the wisdom of the West. It is from the precepts of the Bible that the legal systems of the West have been developed- systems, worked out over millennia, for dealing with inequality, with injustice, with greed, reducible t that which Christians call the Golden Rule, and the Jews had propounded as “That which is hateful to you, don not do to your neighbor.” It is these rules and laws which form a framework which allows the individual foreknowledge of that which is permitted and that which is forbidden.
David Mamet, "The Secret Knowledge"

 

[NYcarbineer]

I'm not even sure what point you are trying to make.

Capital punishment is barbaric, no matter what the crime.

"I'm not even sure what point you are trying to make."

What is that, 'argument as dope'?
You know very well what point I have made...and proven.



Capital punishment is appropriate.
It is murder that is barbaric.

It is the correct sentence for the crime of murder.

And it is accepted as such in both the Old and New Testaments.





"

You mean like crucifixion?

 

[NYcarbineer]

No rational person believes that society should be strictly bound to the legal and moral dictates of civilizations many thousands of years old.

 

[NYcarbineer]

[


Capital punishment is appropriate.
It is murder that is barbaric.

It is the correct sentence for the crime of murder.

"

Then the appropriate punishment for having an abortion is the death penalty to anyone who believes abortion is murder.

 

[PoliticalChic]

No rational person believes that society should be strictly bound to the legal and moral dictates of civilizations many thousands of years old.

You're not really suggesting that you have even a passing acquaintanceship with any 'rational persons,' are you?



I believe you've caused universal laughter.

 

[Katzndogz]

It's like someone, someplace, actually thinks that Phil Robertson would care!

Is this how low we have gone, that we cannot recognize a person who is independent?