A Creation Story for Materialists

[The ClayTaurus]

No one claims this force to be invisible or a being and since neither science or religion can prove what occurred, one is not more "right" than the other. While you love to mock the religious theorists, the "scientists" are without answers also. Are we supposed to just have faith that they will eventually come up with one?

Good point; to some degree there is a level of faith put into science that it will eventually answer an unknown. To that extent, religion and science are similar.

 

[Max Power]

You're right. It dawned on me today that I used the wrong term. Time is one-directional.

Is it?

Some theories, most notably special and general relativity, suggest that suitable geometries of spacetime, or certain types of motion in space, may allow time travel into the past and future if these geometries or motions are possible
theories do exist about the possibility of folding time to hop from one point to another.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_travel

Just as Newtonian physics breaks down as you enter the quantum realm, it is entirely possible that (what we percieve as) time breaks down in other realms.... for example, near a singularity (blackhole, wormhole, white hole, the big bang...) time could act extremely different in these environments.

Or, even if time is one-directional, who is to say that it isn't circular? Always travelling in one direction, and always going to where it's already been.

Remember that 600 years ago, people thought the earth had ends... but it doesn't. Perhaps time doesn't have a beginning or an end either.

I don't disagree about quantum physics. But it's one thing to say that a particle can experience a quantum leap; it's a whole different thing to say that both there is a universe full of matter and there is not a universe full of matter at the same time.

This is why I pointed to Schrodinger's cat. It's an example of trying to comprehend quantum principles in a macroscopic example. It is only a thought experiment, and actually performing the experiment would yield no result as to "what actually happened," so don't kill your cat just yet.
Still, I don't think we are in ANY position to dismiss the posibility that you are dismissing. Another possibility is multiple universes, where we are required to live in one that allows the existence of life (and therefore must contain matter).

 

[Max Power]

No one claims this force to be invisible or a being and since neither science or religion can prove what occurred, one is not more "right" than the other. While you love to mock the religious theorists, the "scientists" are without answers also. Are we supposed to just have faith that they will eventually come up with one?

Any scientist will tell you that for every answer found, more unanswered questions arise.

 

[dilloduck]

Good point; to some degree there is a level of faith put into science that it will eventually answer an unknown. To that extent, religion and science are similar.

I think my concern with the "science" agenda is that they are not only looking for answers but are in reality looking for a way to alter and control our existence. Like something is seriously flawed with the way things are now. If they ever reduce life to a simple equation, what will they do with it? Use it for a paperweight or a door stop? In our dreams. They will HAVE to mess with it to make things "better" and we all know how that has turned out.

 

[Bonnie]

Max....Just as Newtonian physics breaks down as you enter the quantum realm, it is entirely possible that (what we percieve as) time breaks down in other realms.... for example, near a singularity (blackhole, wormhole, white hole, the big bang...) time could act extremely different in these environments.

Or, even if time is one-directional, who is to say that it isn't circular? Always travelling in one direction, and always going to where it's already been.

Are you saying that possibly we as a civilization are eventually heading backwards to a primitive time once we have arked or peaked in this circle of one way directionality?? Im not quite following this?

 

[The ClayTaurus]

I think my concern with the "science" agenda is that they are not only looking for answers but are in reality looking for a way to alter and control our existence. Like something is seriously flawed with the way things are now. If they ever reduce life to a simple equation, what will they do with it? Use it for a paperweight or a door stop? In our dreams. They will HAVE to mess with it to make things "better" and we all know how that has turned out.

That's a lot of conjecture on your part, to say the least.

 

[dilloduck]

Any scientist will tell you that for every answer found, more unanswered questions arise.

hey---there's a real positve thing. Makes me want to sit and wait until science has answered everything for us.

 

[The ClayTaurus]

hey---there's a real positve thing. Makes me want to sit and wait until science has answered everything for us.

Scientists are willing to live their life with unanswered questions abound. It does not debilitate them, but fuels their drive to find answers.

Religious people have historically needed answers to questions for which they had none, and religion has been the tool for which to provide the answers. That's not a Christianity thing, it's a religion thing.

 

[dilloduck]

That's a lot of conjecture on your part, to say the least.

well of course it is----aren't we all guessing here? Man is the only creature around that speculates about his condition.

 

[The ClayTaurus]

well of course it is----aren't we all guessing here? Man is the only creature around that speculates about his condition.

True... too much free time, we should get a hobby or something...

 

[dilloduck]

Scientists are willing to live their life with unanswered questions abound. It does not debilitate them, but fuels their drive to find answers.

Religious people have historically needed answers to questions for which they had none, and religion has been the tool for which to provide the answers. That's not a Christianity thing, it's a religion thing.

Have you ever seen a "Scientist" who will just accept things? Many religious people do. They are portrayed as stupid fairy tale believers. And again---what is the purpose in answering questions only to discover you have created more questions? Avoidance perhaps?

 

[The ClayTaurus]

Have you ever seen a "Scientist" who will just accept things? Many religious people do. They are portrayed as stupid fairy tale believers. And again---what is the purpose in answering questions only to discover you have created more questions? Avoidance perhaps?

"Just accepting things" is what people who thought the earth was flat or that the sun revolved around the earth did, they were told it was so and it propagated for years.

I don't think you're anything other than religious if you just accept things, but it's not the way my brain operates. In a way, I'm envious of those who have been able to have all of their questions answered through religion; they are at much more peace than I.

 

[dilloduck]

"Just accepting things" is what people who thought the earth was flat or that the sun revolved around the earth did, they were told it was so and it propagated for years.

I don't think you're anything other than religious if you just accept things, but it's not the way my brain operates. In a way, I'm envious of those who have been able to have all of their questions answered through religion; they are at much more peace than I.

When we're speaking of "science people" and "religious people" we are making such broad generalizations that it would be impossible to come to any conclusions that I would be willing to take to the bank. In a way, I do my own scientific method in trying to find out the essential differences between to two general areas of thinking. It seems that some are just willing to accept "religious" reasonings and explanations as good enough and live thier lives accordingly. I would assume thier own personal experiences bear that out. If they find religious explanations unsatisfactory or not "rational" enough they may prefer to go the science route.
Those not raised with a religious explanation of things may or may not be content with scientific answers, again most likely due to personal experiences.
Maybe they will try harder to seek scientific "answers" or choose to dabble with religion.
I guess everyone is a seeker until they decide to become a finder.
( but damn--wouldn't it be a pisser to find out you've been chasing up the wrong tree your whole life?) :teeth:

 

[The ClayTaurus]

When we're speaking of "science people" and "religious people" we are making such broad generalizations that it would be impossible to come to any conclusions that I would be willing to take to the bank. In a way, I do my own scientific method in trying to find out the essential differences between to two general areas of thinking. It seems that some are just willing to accept "religious" reasonings and explanations as good enough and live thier lives accordingly. I would assume thier own personal experiences bear that out. If they find religious explanations unsatisfactory or not "rational" enough they may prefer to go the science route.
Those not raised with a religious explanation of things may or may not be content with scientific answers, again most likely due to personal experiences.
Maybe they will try harder to seek scientific "answers" or choose to dabble with religion.
I guess everyone is a seeker until they decide to become a finder.
( but damn--wouldn't it be a pisser to find out you've been chasing up the wrong tree your whole life?) :teeth:

You bet.

 

[SpidermanTuba]

If you assertion is that all matter is converted energy then where did all this energy originate? and when are you gonna figure out that this line of thinking will always come up empty of a final answer ?

Any scientific line of thinking will always lead to unanswered questions. There is no final answer, no ultimate truth that science will achieve.

 

[Max Power]

Are you saying that possibly we as a civilization are eventually heading backwards to a primitive time once we have arked or peaked in this circle of one way directionality?? Im not quite following this?

I'm not saying anything for certain, I'm just open to the possibility that time is not simply a line with a beginning (and with or without an end).

So, for example, say the Universe ends in a big crunch, then starts all over again. It wouldn't mean we're heading backwards to a primitive time. We are heading forwards to a primitive time.

 

[Max Power]

I think my concern with the "science" agenda is that they are not only looking for answers but are in reality looking for a way to alter and control our existence. Like something is seriously flawed with the way things are now. If they ever reduce life to a simple equation, what will they do with it? Use it for a paperweight or a door stop? In our dreams. They will HAVE to mess with it to make things "better" and we all know how that has turned out.

Are you opposed to medicine?
I'm just curious why someone would hate how science makes life better.

 

[SpidermanTuba]

I never said anyone was closer than the other---religions have simply accepted an answer
Science refuses that notion and need solid evidence---they just don't have any.

"God" isn't really much of an answer.


Q:Why is the sky blue?
A:God


Q:Why does the Earth orbit the Sun?
A:God

Q:Why do charged particles radiate when under acceleration?
A:God


None of these answers are very instructive. Rayleigh scattering, gravity. If scientists had decided that the answer "god" was suitable, we wouldn't have gotten very far.

 

[manu1959]

Q:Why is the sky blue?
A:because the sky got first choice

Q:Why does the Earth orbit the Sun?
A: the sun is bigger

Q:Why do charged particles radiate when under acceleration?
A: they react poorly under pressure

 

[Bonnie]

"Just accepting things" is what people who thought the earth was flat or that the sun revolved around the earth did, they were told it was so and it propagated for years.

I don't think you're anything other than religious if you just accept things, but it's not the way my brain operates. In a way, I'm envious of those who have been able to have all of their questions answered through religion; they are at much more peace than I.

It is quite peaceful, and its never too late!!