A Blow to the Muslim Brotherhood

[Sunni Man]

Why is that Muslims always fight so much with each other over religion Sunni?

Maybe you should you ask the Catholics/Protestants in Northern Ireland??

 

[Kondor3]

Morsi did stir war rumblings up and the Egyptian military and people do not want war. Why are so many Muslims hell bent on going to war for Allah?

Something to do with a promise of Paradise if you die advancing or defending The Faith?

 

[ErikViking]

I have a theory:
While Christianity had a couple of hundered years to adapt to an ever changing society, Islam has still to go through that process. Only now, there is no time! Globalization has occured and you will have to adapt fast - or be extremely powerful.
Even communist China are slowly, maybe too slow, understood this.

Islam hasn't succeded at all. They can't grasp women liberation, freedom of speech or basically anything else beyond a 16:th century society.

So in order to establish themselves in Egypt, with a modern poulation and a strong and pragmatic (one of any modern armys core values) military, they had this time to show what they could do. And they failed.

 

[Kondor3]

I have a theory: While Christianity had a couple of hundered years to adapt to an ever changing society, Islam has still to go through that process. Only now, there is no time! Globalization has occured and you will have to adapt fast - or be extremely powerful. Even communist China are slowly, maybe too slow, understood this. Islam hasn't succeded at all. They can't grasp women liberation, freedom of speech or basically anything else beyond a 16:th century society. So in order to establish themselves in Egypt, with a modern poulation and a strong and pragmatic (one of any modern armys core values) military, they had this time to show what they could do. And they failed.

You may be talking about a Reformation.

Christianity experienced one in the 1500s-1600s.

It was a matter of 'getting back to basics' via independent interpretation of The Bible.

Islam will not experience a Reformation.

Muhammed made sure that Islam's sacred texts portrayed him as the Final Prophet, bringing the Final Word of God; he pressed the 'Lock-Out Changes' button in the 600s.

And, even though Islam-at-large boasted many rather advanced societies and sub-cultures in their heyday (600s - 1400s), their time came and went, and most Islam-dominated cultures degenerated into easy-to-conquer polities that the Euros knocked-off and took-over as they began feeling their oats, in the opening of the Euro-Colonial-Imperial Era.

That era only ended within living memory... after WWII... as those bankrupt Euro-Empires unloaded their colonial and imperial holdings... letting-up on an oppressed Islam for the first time in at least a couple of centuries. In some respects, Islam was 'asleep' or 'lying dormant' with respect to politics and conquest, waiting for the Euros to lose interest and leave.

Well... the Euros are gone... and Islam is waking-up again, in a political sense, for the first time in a couple of centuries... and they're scared... they fell badly behind in the centuries they were asleep and now they're faced with trying to play catch-up, with the distance between them and the rest of the world continuing to grow, the longer they wait.

But, they're going to be so busy playing catch-up for the next century or two, that there would be no time for a Reformation, even IF their Sacred Texts could be interpreted to 'Re-Enable Changes', contrary to their Prophet's obvious wishes.

The irony is, without such a 'Re-Enabling of Changes', to enable a Reformation of some kind, they will continue to fall further and further behind the rest of the world, in many respects.

< turns off pure extempore shoot-from-the-hip keyboard-mode and moves on >

 

[Katzndogz]

Why is that Muslims always fight so much with each other over religion Sunni?

Maybe you should you ask the Catholics/Protestants in Northern Ireland??

That's easy. Catholics supported the British occupation and Protestants wanted independence.

 

[Sactowndog]

That Zionist backed Army has close ties to the US Army. That Army would be the same Army that guarantees your right to practice Islam and to speak on this forum. If your so opposed to guaranteeing minority rights than perhaps you would be willing to lose yours.

Incorrect.

It is the US Constitution that guarantees my rights; not the Army.

At the end of the day it is an Army that has sworn allegiance to defend the constitution from foes both foreign and domestic that protects your rights. The 2nd Amendment Zelots may claim it is the second amendment but the IRAQ war has proven guns are no match for drone technology. The gap in technology has grown so great the only thing standing between you and your rights is the army.

 

[Katzndogz]

That Zionist backed Army has close ties to the US Army. That Army would be the same Army that guarantees your right to practice Islam and to speak on this forum. If your so opposed to guaranteeing minority rights than perhaps you would be willing to lose yours.

Incorrect.

It is the US Constitution that guarantees my rights; not the Army.

At the end of the day it is an Army that has sworn allegiance to defend the constitution from foes both foreign and domestic that protects your rights. The 2nd Amendment Zelots may claim it is the second amendment by the IRAQ war has proven guns are no match for drone technology. The gap in technology has grown so great the only thing standing between you and your rights is the army.

What side does the army take?

That was just answered in Egypt wasn't it. Did Morsi depend on the army to defend him? Likely yes he did.

 

[Sactowndog]

I do not like what the military did there but what does a country do when the elected officials refuse to follow their own constitution?

This is the lynch of what democratic values are based. Democracy is a two way street, not the appointment of what has earmarks of an autocratic rule but a representative system where people's wishes and rights are taken into account and valued.

You do know we aren't a true democracy. The founding fathers feared the Tryanny of the Majority as much as anything. Something our own citizens often seem to forget (see gay marriage laws). Unfettered by the constitution the Christian Right in this country would be scarcely better than the Islamists in Egypt.

Even without the constitution the Egyptian military is stepping in to protect the rights of all its citizens. Hopefully, the Egyptian system will evolve with a strong bill of rights and the people won't kick it to the curb in the name of security. That includes the right of the MB to operate but not the ability to abridge the rights of others.

 

[Sactowndog]

Incorrect.

It is the US Constitution that guarantees my rights; not the Army.

At the end of the day it is an Army that has sworn allegiance to defend the constitution from foes both foreign and domestic that protects your rights. The 2nd Amendment Zelots may claim it is the second amendment by the IRAQ war has proven guns are no match for drone technology. The gap in technology has grown so great the only thing standing between you and your rights is the army.

What side does the army take?

That was just answered in Egypt wasn't it. Did Morsi depend on the army to defend him? Likely yes he did.

Ideally the side of the constitution and not a person.

 

[Gadawg73]

Why is that Muslims always fight so much with each other over religion Sunni?

Maybe you should you ask the Catholics/Protestants in Northern Ireland??

Exactly my point and I appreciate your quick response based on fact.
How long have I been stating there is not much difference in you and a country southern Georgia boy like me?
Your shock n awe approach working once again here!
Bottom line sports fans is I would bet if you met Sunni he would be about just like any other American Joe on the street you would meet.
His religious beliefs are different and I do not agree with many of them but most of his posts are for a reaction.

 

[Gadawg73]

I do not like what the military did there but what does a country do when the elected officials refuse to follow their own constitution?

This is the lynch of what democratic values are based. Democracy is a two way street, not the appointment of what has earmarks of an autocratic rule but a representative system where people's wishes and rights are taken into account and valued.

You do know we aren't a true democracy. The founding fathers feared the Tryanny of the Majority as much as anything. Something our own citizens often seem to forget (see gay marriage laws). Unfettered by the constitution the Christian Right in this country would be scarcely better than the Islamists in Egypt.

Even without the constitution the Egyptian military is stepping in to protect the rights of all its citizens. Hopefully, the Egyptian system will evolve with a strong bill of rights and the people won't kick it to the curb in the name of security. That includes the right of the MB to operate but not the ability to abridge the rights of others.

Well said.
Democracy is mob majority rule.
The Constitution protects the rights of the INDIVIDUAL, not the majority and tells the government WHAT IT CAN NOT DO, never telling the individual what they legally can not do.

 

[Kondor3]

"...Islam will not experience a Reformation..."

Ahhhhhh... Sunni-Man decided to Neg-Rep me for this one... calling it 'idiotic'.

Feel free to refute the salient points from that narration, at your discretion, here or in some other thread that you can link us to.

Or, will you shy-away from that challenge as well, just as you have shied-away from producing evidence or credible data that the CIA and Mossad are behind the Egyptian Army coup?

Or do you believe that the salient points raised in that 'No-Reformation' post will not bear a closer scrutiny without injuring Islam's image or prospects amongst Unbelievers?

 

[AVG-JOE]

The root of the problem is inept Government. Rhetoric is no substitute for good action and competency.

This is why the streets are full of people for the military to protect. The job of the government is to see to education, a fair market place, and to see to the trains, planes, bridges and other shared infrastructure functioning on time. Morsi fucked up... Parents should see to the spiritual needs of their spawn, not government.

What gets me is how much Obama pussy-footed around the issue. He should have just said straight up that any leader of any organization with that much dissent needs to admit to screwing the pooch and step down.

 

[AVG-JOE]

And how many in the MB were also protesting the way Morsi was dictating his will over the people instead of working with all Egyptians?
Why is that Muslims always fight so much with each other over religion Sunni?

Man, that is the $64 question isn't it?

So much bloodshed over ancient stories makes us look incredibly stupid from space.

 

[Trajan]

I said at the start of this thread, we'd see which way Morsi would play it and if he felt he could muster an effort they would start the path to anarchy. He knows he outnumbered but, thats not always the deciding factor, will is, does the will fo the tahir square crowd, which in the end will matter most be broke in the face of MB agitated violence?

And, how does the military play this?? Keep trying to separate them , till....what? If Morsi does not give it p, they will have to stay in the streets and whomever they name to whatever post ( prime mister etc.) it won't matter they will be seen as the defacto power.


I am sure Morsi wants to push the military, if they step in hard on both sides which may be the only way to keep the peace, he wants them to be discredited, they may make enemies of the tahir square crowd, and, there after, the better organized side will triumph there after...by staying cohesive and 'present'...can the tahir square crowd do that?

 

[AVG-JOE]

Why is that Muslims always fight so much with each other over religion Sunni?

Maybe you should you ask the Catholics/Protestants in Northern Ireland??

Good historic question, but they've stopped for the most part.

What's the Sunni / Shiite excuse?

Bloodshed over differences of opinion regarding ancient stories is stupid no matter which stories are at the epicenter.

 

[Rozman]

Make no mistake about it.

Israel's mossad and the CIA are behind the unrest and ousting of Pres. Morsi.

It's zionist rulers hated the idea of the Muslim Brotherhood being in control of Egypt.

Israel's mossad and the CIA are behind the unrest and ousting of Pres. Morsi.

It wasn't a video on YouTube?

 

[AVG-JOE]

I have a theory: While Christianity had a couple of hundered years to adapt to an ever changing society, Islam has still to go through that process. Only now, there is no time! Globalization has occured and you will have to adapt fast - or be extremely powerful. Even communist China are slowly, maybe too slow, understood this. Islam hasn't succeded at all. They can't grasp women liberation, freedom of speech or basically anything else beyond a 16:th century society. So in order to establish themselves in Egypt, with a modern poulation and a strong and pragmatic (one of any modern armys core values) military, they had this time to show what they could do. And they failed.

You may be talking about a Reformation.

Christianity experienced one in the 1500s-1600s.

It was a matter of 'getting back to basics' via independent interpretation of The Bible.

Islam will not experience a Reformation.

Muhammed made sure that Islam's sacred texts portrayed him as the Final Prophet, bringing the Final Word of God; he pressed the 'Lock-Out Changes' button in the 600s.

And, even though Islam-at-large boasted many rather advanced societies and sub-cultures in their heyday (600s - 1400s), their time came and went, and most Islam-dominated cultures degenerated into easy-to-conquer polities that the Euros knocked-off and took-over as they began feeling their oats, in the opening of the Euro-Colonial-Imperial Era.

That era only ended within living memory... after WWII... as those bankrupt Euro-Empires unloaded their colonial and imperial holdings... letting-up on an oppressed Islam for the first time in at least a couple of centuries. In some respects, Islam was 'asleep' or 'lying dormant' with respect to politics and conquest, waiting for the Euros to lose interest and leave.

Well... the Euros are gone... and Islam is waking-up again, in a political sense, for the first time in a couple of centuries... and they're scared... they fell badly behind in the centuries they were asleep and now they're faced with trying to play catch-up, with the distance between them and the rest of the world continuing to grow, the longer they wait.

But, they're going to be so busy playing catch-up for the next century or two, that there would be no time for a Reformation, even IF their Sacred Texts could be interpreted to 'Re-Enable Changes', contrary to their Prophet's obvious wishes.

The irony is, without such a 'Re-Enabling of Changes', to enable a Reformation of some kind, they will continue to fall further and further behind the rest of the world, in many respects.

< turns off pure extempore shoot-from-the-hip keyboard-mode and moves on >

Unless everyone in a country devoutly belongs to the same church, mixing religion and politics is a fools errand. The lesson out of Egypt is don't expect quality spiritual leaders to be effective political leaders. Not in a society that at all has 'multi' in its cultures and/or beliefs.




The hope should be that quality spiritual leaders are way to fucking busy to run a country.

 

[Kondor3]

"...Unless everyone in a country devoutly belongs to the same church, mixing religion and politics is a fools errand..."

That has certainly been the Western experience in recent centuries, although that was not always the case even in the West.

Throughout much of the rest of the world, however - including much of Latin America, Africa and the Muslim-dominated regions of the world, they haven't learned that lesson yet, to an extent that would preclude them from attempting to do just that.

And given that 90% of Egyptians are Muslim, with 10% Christian (mostly Coptics, presumably), their near-homogeneity of Religion gets their demographics in the ballpark of 'everyone devoutly belongs'... close enough to try, from time to time, apparently.

"...The hope should be that quality spiritual leaders are way to fucking busy to run a country."

Agreed... 'quality' or no... it seems to me that Religious Clerics, translated into power in a Secular State, almost always either (a) try to convert that State to a Theocratic one, or (b) screw-up the Secular State with their biases and questionable motivations.

 

[ErikViking]

I have a theory:
While Christianity had a couple of hundered years to adapt to an ever changing society, Islam has still to go through that process. Only now, there is no time! Globalization has occured and you will have to adapt fast - or be extremely powerful.
Even communist China are slowly, maybe too slow, understood this.

Islam hasn't succeded at all. They can't grasp women liberation, freedom of speech or basically anything else beyond a 16:th century society.

So in order to establish themselves in Egypt, with a modern poulation and a strong and pragmatic (one of any modern armys core values) military, they had this time to show what they could do. And they failed.

Allright, Sunni Man, can't you at least explain why my theory is incorrect. Don't bother explaining the nitwit part.

I am not unfamiliar with the concept of being wrong - have a go!