67% of americans believe in heaven and 73% in hell!

[Diuretic]

Quite true.....But it wasnt just idealism on behalf of Blair...

Blair was faced with the perennial conundrum of every british leader.... the balance between the US and EU.... without maintaining this precarious position..the UK loses alot of its power.

I do also however believe that Blair could see that the terrorist Bushteam were going to massacre iraqis whatever he did... and so attempted to curtail the US terrorism as much as possible.

It was clearly a mistake...and has ended up with him being the most HATED man outside of the US.... but perhaps history will be more understanding?

I suspect history will be unkind to Tony Blair. In his naievete he thought he was dealing with a rational US administration. He wasn't. They were are/are lunatics.

 

[PeterS]

I will try to make a serious point amidst my laughter.

Surely this survey explains alot about the simplicity of thinking and the extreme backwardness of the american public.

Americans seem to want everything to be black and white... no reality or truth..just keep things simple.

I also find it extremely funny that more americans believe in Hell than Heaven... thus confirming that the US is a land of fear and hatred.

I would love to see a comparative study done in Europe.. i wouldnt expect more than 10% of europeans to say they believed in such stone age, superstitious simplicities.

Very revealing indeed.


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We are a very religious country Michael and without heaven and hell there is no need for god. I am not surprised at all though the skewing is very funny.

 

[KittenKoder]

We are a very religious country Michael and without heaven and hell there is no need for god. I am not surprised at all though the skewing is very funny.

While I think Michael is full of shit, our 'country' is not suppose to be religious. You can be if you so choose, but not our government. Separation of Church and State is a primary law in our country and should be enforced.

 

[editec]

I'd have to see the EXACT methodology they used to create this survey before I'll believe it.

Speaking as a social scientist, one does grow rather tired of reading about surveys without knowing for sure that the survey itself was done correctly.

Few of them are, I fear.

Usually the methodology they employ to find the people they're surveying is flawed.

For example, if an atheist gets that survey sent to them, do they just trash it?

They probably do in FAR greater numbers than believers do, don't they?

So the returned surveys are slanted by people who take the questions seriously enough to answer them, and devoid of the people who thought the whole thing an excercise silly to the extreme.

Hence we end up with an outcome which is flawed because the data is flawed.

GIGO

 

[PeterS]

While I think Michael is full of shit, our 'country' is not suppose to be religious. You can be if you so choose, but not our government. Separation of Church and State is a primary law in our country and should be enforced.

Good luck with that. Even Obama is running around showing people how religious he is.

 

[KittenKoder]

Good luck with that. Even Obama is running around showing people how religious he is.

Yep, which is why there are still many who support neither candidate. At first we actually supported McCain, until he chose a wingnut for a VP. Now there are only a few greens, but they never win anyway. The only we can do now is not bother with the pres and instead go back to focusing on legislation. *shrugs* It may be a tough battle, but it will be realized once again eventually.

 

[KittenKoder]

I'd have to see the EXACT methodology they used to create this survey before I'll believe it.

Speaking as a social scientist, one does grow rather tired of reading about surveys without knowing for sure that the survey itself was done correctly.

Few of them are, I fear.

Usually the methodology they employ to find the people they're surveying is flawed.

For example, if an atheist gets that survey sent to them, do they just trash it?

They probably do in FAR greater numbers than believers do, don't they?

So the returned surveys are slanted by people who take the questions seriously enough to answer them, and devoid of the people who thought the whole thing an excercise silly to the extreme.

Hence we end up with an outcome which is flawed because the data is flawed.

GIGO

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=If9EWDB_zK4]YouTube - Penn and Teller Defend Ron Paul vs. Luntz and Fox News[/ame]
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFL-LubDF9c]YouTube - Fox News and Frank Luntz Caught Red Handed Focus Group Fraud[/ame]

You may find these useful in the future.

 

[PeterS]

I'd have to see the EXACT methodology they used to create this survey before I'll believe it.

Speaking as a social scientist, one does grow rather tired of reading about surveys without knowing for sure that the survey itself was done correctly.

Few of them are, I fear.

Usually the methodology they employ to find the people they're surveying is flawed.

For example, if an atheist gets that survey sent to them, do they just trash it?

They probably do in FAR greater numbers than believers do, don't they?

So the returned surveys are slanted by people who take the questions seriously enough to answer them, and devoid of the people who thought the whole thing an excercise silly to the extreme.

Hence we end up with an outcome which is flawed because the data is flawed.

GIGO

Probably, but I'm not surprised the numbers are so high are you?

 

[editec]

Probably, but I'm not surprised the numbers are so high are you?

No.

Not if the survey itself is flawed.

I could design a survey that proved to you that the majority of Americans believed that tooth fairy runs the Fed is you don't mind that it was designed to give me that intended outcome.

The math would be spot on, but the methodology to collect the data would be bent.

Why do you think I seldom bother to respond when partisans here tell us the outcome of recent polls?

I don't believe any of them.

Oh I am sure many of them are on the up and up, but since none of them tell us their methodology, and since few of them ever give us the surveys ver batum, we cannnot KNOW if these sruveys are any good, or if the polling was done correctly, either.

Push polling can prove whatever you want it to prove.

 

[xsited1]

Europeans have learned to march in lock-step with their governments over the centuries. You won't find too many Europeans that believe in Heaven or Hell because that would mean there is something more powerful than the government they revere. Those who wanted freedom, including religious freedom, came to America.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

I suspect history will be unkind to Tony Blair. In his naievete he thought he was dealing with a rational US administration. He wasn't. They were are/are lunatics.

Ahh yes more ignorant pap from a non US citizen. Lets remind you idiots that even Obama admits he probably would have voted for War if he had access to the same information the Senate had before the vote.

Now trot out the ignorant claim Bush lied to the Congress. A claim proven over and over to not only be wrong but as stupid as hell. EVERYONE before the fall of Iraq BELIEVED Saddam had WMD's. EVERYONE. Australians included, Europeans included. Democrats included.

You two are beyond ignorant when you make these statements. Tell ya what MATE, you stay the hell out of my politics and I will stay the hell out of yours. Not exactly like your country is some shining example of purity on the hill now is it?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

While I think Michael is full of shit, our 'country' is not suppose to be religious. You can be if you so choose, but not our government. Separation of Church and State is a primary law in our country and should be enforced.

No such law exists. ALL the Constitution says is the Government can not pick one religion over any other. That is it.

 

[KittenKoder]

First, xsited1 are you high? They started the whole thing and many are very religious, they just separated church and state recently to attain the American Dream, and were more successful than we are.

As for the polls, they ARE skewed, always, especially if done for politics. Those who don't think otherwise need to study Frank Luntz, just a quick search on him. He wrote a book that pollsters of all walks have been using for a long time now.

 

[Silence]

by and large the people of this country believe in a power higher than themselves, that is called religion to most.

I am spiritual but would not call myself religious as I do not believe in organized religion because I think organized religion has turned God into a weapon instead of a haven.

They twist and turn he bible to mean what they want it to mean, interpreting man's interpretation of God's word and somewhere along the way the true meaning gets lost.

God, in my world loves all people who love and accept him. And that God can be called Allah, Budda, whatever. When you love and accept God, you accept that you are not in this world alone and that you have a responsibility to others to treat them as you want to be treated. When you love and accept God you don't judge others based on sexual orientation, race, religion or nationality because you know that is not your place on this earth.

There are man made laws to deal with people who break man's rules but man should not try to enforce what they see as God's rules for man has no authority to speak for God.

 

[PeterS]

No such law exists. ALL the Constitution says is the Government can not pick one religion over any other. That is it.

So it is fine to legislate religious beliefs or are we picking a religion when we do so?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

So it is fine to legislate religious beliefs or are we picking a religion when we do so?

Again as long as a single religion is never ordained by the State it is perfectly acceptable to legislate anything the Government wants that does not violate the Constitution.

Go ahead quote for me the passage or passages in the Constitution that say anything about " separation of Church and State" I have read it MANY times and I have quoted it many times as well and still I have never found those magic words, that phrase or anything that even remotely means what the left now claims is said.

You are aware that individual States DID have State annointed religions? AFTER the Constitution was enacted? Originally the Constitution was understood to ONLY apply to the Federal Government. With the 13th and 14th Amendments that changed. YET still there is no clause that forbids religion in Government. NOT a single one.

You want that in there? Propose and get passed an amendment that ACTUALLY says that.

 

[KittenKoder]

So it is fine to legislate religious beliefs or are we picking a religion when we do so?

I don't think Retired person understands the 'letter of the law versus spirit of the law' very well, Peter.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

I don't think Retired person understands the 'letter of the law versus spirit of the law' very well, Peter.

Go ahead quote the relevant passage or passages from the Constitution.

 

[PeterS]

I don't think Retired person understands the 'letter of the law versus spirit of the law' very well, Peter.

Secularism means that I can hold any religious belief that I like I just cannot base legislation upon those beliefs. Legislation is supposed to be based on rationalism not irrationalism sense it is Man who is sovereign not god. Conservatives do not accept that since a large part of Christianity centers around proselytizing ergo the need for such things as school prayer.

Largely they are nothing more than sick fucks with no idea what they are trying to destroy. It really is a pity...

 

[KittenKoder]

Secularism means that I can hold any religious belief that I like I just cannot base legislation upon those beliefs. Legislation is supposed to be based on rationalism not irrationalism sense it is Man who is sovereign not god. Conservatives do not accept that since a large part of Christianity centers around proselytizing ergo the need for such things as school prayer.

Largely they are nothing more than sick fucks with no idea what they are trying to destroy. It really is a pity...

So true, but not just conservatives, many liberals do as well, just in a different manner. It's an extremist ideology, not con or lib. The sad thing is that McCain actually said once when the race started that he was going to enforce the separation of church and state, but then he went and chose Palin and lost all credibility in that regard. Our country was formed because we were separating ourselves from the religiously controlled England, then England made strides to separate it's religion from government while we have gone backwards. Due to our caving into the extremists we now have more problems, and they keep growing.