Zionism's Dead End: Separation and Transfer

[Hossfly]

"Zionism and Imperialism

To acquire the land for his state, Herzl was willing to beg from the table of every imperialist power, no matter how criminal. He courted them all-the German Kaiser, the Turks, the Russian Tsar, and the British Empire.

"In 1896, He entered into negotiations with the Turkish Sultan of the Ottoman Empire, which had ruled over Palestine for more than five hundred years.

"HerzI offered the Sultan a deal-in exchange for giving Palestine to the Jews, the Zionist movement would help soften world condemnation of Turkey for its genocidal campaign against the Armenians. He even pledged to meet with Armenian leaders to convince them to call off their resistance struggle! In his diary, Herzl wrote,

"[The Sultan] could and would receive me as a friend-after I had rendered him a service.... For one thing I am to influence the European press...to handle the Armenian question in a spirit more friendly to the Turks: for another, I am to induce the Armenian leaders directly to submit to him, whereupon he will make all sorts of concessions to them...."

"As it turned out, the Sultan rejected the offer.

Ask any Armenian how the rest of the story turned out.

The Hidden Roots of Zionism

Why, Georgie Boy, I didn't know you were so interested in the Armenians. Why don't you visit the huge Armenian population in Glendale and ask them how they feel that the Turks haven't seen fit to apologize even after 100 years. Meanwhile, why not do something to help the Armenians now. Maybe the Glendale Armenians are working on some relief efforts for their brethren in Syria and they could use an extra hand.

War in Syria sparks efforts to help Armenians - latimes.com

Why do you instinctively defend a Jew who offered to help a Muslim murder Armenians?

Have you ever thought, Georgie Boy, that by your silence about what is going on in the Muslim world, you are defending those who are killing people in the name of a religion? Now, apparently since you have nothing going on in your life at the moment, why not hitch a ride up to Glendale and see how you can help the Armenians who are suffering in Syria. You can always get back to demonizing the Jews and Israel when you get through helping the Armenians.

 

[georgephillip]

Nothing wrong with the taming of rock throwers and the scorn for the fact changing journalists. Piss on 'em.

More from Chris Hedges's Gaza Diaries:

"In Beit Agron I run into familiar Israeli press officials. They are efficient: our press cards are ready in minutes. They welcome me back. They ask about New York. They hand out cell-phone numbers and tell us to call if we need assistance.

"Joe and I get up to leave, but we are blocked at the door by a man in his early sixties wearing a gray leisure suit. His name is Yusuf Samir, and he is a reporter for the Israeli Arabic service. He tells us that he was kidnapped recently in the West Bank by Palestinian gunmen and held for several weeks.

"'The Palestinians are animals,' he says. 'They are less than human. They are savage beasts. Israel is a land of love. People in Israel love one another. But the Palestinians do not love. They hate. They should be destroyed. We should put fire to them. We should take back Beit Jala, Bethlehem, take back all the land and get rid of them.'"

"The Israeli press officers are beaming.

"'He is a great man, a poet,' one says as we leave. 'He is a man of peace.'"

Hossie...a Chosen "man of peace believes Jews should "set fire" to Arab Palestinians.
Would you piss on the poet or his victims?

Poor pathetic Georgie Boy -- he still has not found out that Chris Hedges was not even in the area and just took the word of some Arab. If I interviewed someone who was there during the Watts Riots, Georgie Boy, do you really think I would be getting the absolute truth? It is so amusing how these two-bit anti-Semites keep on pulling up the same stuff year after year ad nauseam. By now this Hedges' piece has grown mold on these forums.

CAMERA: Chris Hedges, Harper's, and Israel

You haven't proven Hedges wasn't in Khan Younis when the incident he described took place.
Why is that?

"Yesterday at this spot the Israelis shot eight young men, six of whom were under the age of eighteen. One was twelve. This afternoon they kill an eleven-year-old boy, Ali Murad, and seriously wound four more, three of whom are under eighteen. Children have been shot in other conflicts I have covered—death squads gunned them down in El Salvador and Guatemala, mothers with infants were lined up and massacred in Algeria, and Serb snipers put children in their sights and watched them crumple onto the pavement in Sarajevo—but I have never before watched soldiers entice children like mice into a trap and murder them for sport."

Was Hedges present for the following interview with a Palestinian police officer:

"We approach a Palestinian police post behind a sand hill. The police, in green uniforms, are making tea. They say that they have given up on trying to hold the children back.

"'When we tell the boys not to go to the dunes they taunt us as collaborators,' Lt. Ayman Ghanm says. "When we approach the fence with our weapons to try and clear the area the Israelis fire on us. We just sit here now and wait for the war."

A Gaza Diary - by Chris Hedges

 

[georgephillip]

Why, Georgie Boy, I didn't know you were so interested in the Armenians. Why don't you visit the huge Armenian population in Glendale and ask them how they feel that the Turks haven't seen fit to apologize even after 100 years. Meanwhile, why not do something to help the Armenians now. Maybe the Glendale Armenians are working on some relief efforts for their brethren in Syria and they could use an extra hand.

War in Syria sparks efforts to help Armenians - latimes.com

Why do you instinctively defend a Jew who offered to help a Muslim murder Armenians?

Have you ever thought, Georgie Boy, that by your silence about what is going on in the Muslim world, you are defending those who are killing people in the name of a religion? Now, apparently since you have nothing going on in your life at the moment, why not hitch a ride up to Glendale and see how you can help the Armenians who are suffering in Syria. You can always get back to demonizing the Jews and Israel when you get through helping the Armenians.

Why don't you stop worrying about how I spend my time and justify your support for Zionism's dependence upon imperial power for its conquest of Palestine? Tell us how much respect the founders of Zionism displayed for the European Jews they were allegedly representing? See if you can manage that feat without using words like "parasites", "germs", and "aliens."

 

[georgephillip]

Have you ever thought, Georgie Boy, that by your silence about what is going on in the Muslim world, you are defending those who are killing people in the name of a religion? Now, apparently since you have nothing going on in your life at the moment, why not hitch a ride up to Glendale and see how you can help the Armenians who are suffering in Syria. You can always get back to demonizing the Jews and Israel when you get through helping the Armenians.

Why don't you stop worrying about how I spend my time and justify your support for Zionism's dependence upon imperial power for its conquest of Palestine? Tell us how much respect the founders of Zionism displayed for the European Jews they were allegedly representing? See if you can manage that feat without using words like "parasites", "germs", and "aliens."

I am probably not the only one who pities you here. You live in one of the largest cities of the world with lots of things going on (many of which are free) and you sit in front of your computer day and night bashing the Jews and Israel -- and much of the stuff you have pulled up has been pulled up by you ad nauseam. It appears that you don't even care what is going on elsewhere when it comes to people being murdered for their religious beliefs. By the way, Georgie Boy, if you weren't so obsessed with the Jews and probably blame them for the poor circumstances in your own life and would instead really dig back, you will find that the Muslims were one of the biggest imperialists in the world at one time. How do you think that Islam spread from the Saudi Peninsula? Incidentally, folks, it looks like Georgie Boy won't be hitchhiking up to Glendale to give a hand to the Armenians in their relief efforts for their fellow Armenians in Syria.

"In 1895 Theodor Herzl, Zionism's chief prophet, confided in his diary that he did not favour sharing Palestine with the natives. Better, he wrote, to 'try to spirit the penniless [Palestinian] population across the border by denying it any employment in our own country Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly.'

"He was proposing a programme of Palestinian emigration enforced through a policy of strict separation between Jewish immigrants and the indigenous population.

"In simple terms, he hoped that, once Zionist organisations had bought up large areas of Palestine and owned the main sectors of the economy, Palestinians could be made to leave by denying them rights to work the land or labour in the Jewish-run economy.

"His vision was one of transfer, or ethnic cleansing, through ethnic separation."

Why don't you peddle that new mountain bike over the hill to Glendale, and see if the Armenian Mafia needs a helping hand killing the VC?

Zionism's Dead End by Jonathan Cook

 

[HistoryBefore67]

Its amusing how the anti-Israel brigade here thinks that cutting-and-pasting articles from known anti-Semites is somehow a persuasive addition to the dialogue.

 

[georgephillip]

Its amusing how the anti-Israel brigade here thinks that cutting-and-pasting articles from known anti-Semites is somehow a persuasive addition to the dialogue.

Feel free to refute any of Cook's content if you're finished with your time out.

"During the early waves of Jewish immigration to Palestine, the dominant Labor Zionist movement and its leader David Ben Gurion advanced policies much in line with Herzl's goal. In particular, they promoted the twin principles of 'Redemption of the Land' and 'Hebrew Labor', which took as their premise the idea that Jews needed to separate themselves from the native population in working the land and employing only other Jews.

Zionism's Dead End by Jonathan Cook

 

[HistoryBefore67]

Its amusing how the anti-Israel brigade here thinks that cutting-and-pasting articles from known anti-Semites is somehow a persuasive addition to the dialogue.

Feel free to refute any of Cook's content if you're finished with your time out.

"During the early waves of Jewish immigration to Palestine, the dominant Labor Zionist movement and its leader David Ben Gurion advanced policies much in line with Herzl's goal. In particular, they promoted the twin principles of 'Redemption of the Land' and 'Hebrew Labor', which took as their premise the idea that Jews needed to separate themselves from the native population in working the land and employing only other Jews.

Zionism's Dead End by Jonathan Cook

So the goal of self-sufficiency offends you?

 

[georgephillip]

Its amusing how the anti-Israel brigade here thinks that cutting-and-pasting articles from known anti-Semites is somehow a persuasive addition to the dialogue.

Feel free to refute any of Cook's content if you're finished with your time out.

"During the early waves of Jewish immigration to Palestine, the dominant Labor Zionist movement and its leader David Ben Gurion advanced policies much in line with Herzl's goal. In particular, they promoted the twin principles of 'Redemption of the Land' and 'Hebrew Labor', which took as their premise the idea that Jews needed to separate themselves from the native population in working the land and employing only other Jews.

Zionism's Dead End by Jonathan Cook

So the goal of self-sufficiency offends you?

The purpose of ethic cleansing offends me.

 

[HistoryBefore67]

Establishing agricultural communities does not equate to "ethnic cleansing."

What Ben Gurion was talking about was self-sufficiency and building a personal connection to the land by actually working to cultivate it. Its that type of infrastructure building that has allowed Jewish society in Israel to rocket past cultures who focus on teaching hate, advocating martyrdom, and building the means to subject neighbors to terror.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Georgie LOVES to demonize Jews and Israelis. He thrives on that.

SOME Jews require little help to demonize Greater Israel:

"Others in Israel teach the extremist notion that the 10 Commandments don't apply to non-Jews.

"So killing them in defending the homeland is acceptable, and according to Rabbi Dov Lior, chairman of the Jewish Rabbinic Council: 'There is no such thing as enemy civilians in war time. The law of our Torah is to have mercy on our soldiers and to save them... A thousand non-Jewish lives are not worth a Jew's fingernail.'"

How many ARAB lives are worth one of your hangnails?

Al-Ahram Weekly | Focus | Religious fundamentalism in Israel

There is a verse in the Torah that says "Do not take interest from one of your brethren." The fact that the Ten Commandments do not use the word "brethren" means that these commandments are universal. Maybe after you spend 12 years in Hebrew school (yeshivah) like I did, I'll take your anti-Semitic theological viewpoints seriously. Meanwhile, UNLIKE Christianity and Islam, Judaism is the ONLY major monotheistic religion that believe people of ALL faiths go to Heaven as long as they are moral and decent. Remember that Judaism is not to blame for your financial condition. My dad created his own wealth after he came to this country penniless and bereft of family.

 

[georgephillip]

Establishing agricultural communities does not equate to "ethnic cleansing."

What Ben Gurion was talking about was self-sufficiency and building a personal connection to the land by actually working to cultivate it. Its that type of infrastructure building that has allowed Jewish society in Israel to rocket past cultures who focus on teaching hate, advocating martyrdom, and building the means to subject neighbors to terror.

Israel's agricultural collectives began in earnest in 1917 when Jews numbered around 56,000 in Mandate Palestine compared to ten times as many Arabs. Zionists of that time who were committed to a Greater Israel reaching from the River to the sea saw two possible solutions to their Arab problem: Separation and transfer, and their genius was recognizing the two crimes were not mutually exclusive.

If the following statistics are valid, it's pretty clear even Jews weren't smart enough to win out in Palestine without deep imperial pockets (and big guns) at their back:

"Under the British Mandate Government, Britain privileged the small Jewish population over the Palestinians. In 1917 there were 56,000 Jews in Palestine and 644,000 Palestinian Arabs. Still Britain gave Jewish capital 90 percent of concessions for projects like building roads and power plants and by 1935, Zionists owned 872 out of the 1,212 industrial firms in Palestine."

The Hidden Roots of Zionism

 

[Hossfly]

Establishing agricultural communities does not equate to "ethnic cleansing."

What Ben Gurion was talking about was self-sufficiency and building a personal connection to the land by actually working to cultivate it. Its that type of infrastructure building that has allowed Jewish society in Israel to rocket past cultures who focus on teaching hate, advocating martyrdom, and building the means to subject neighbors to terror.

These "ethnic cleansing" and "apartheid" charges are the latest tags placed on Israel. It means little if nothing.

 

[HistoryBefore67]

Establishing agricultural communities does not equate to "ethnic cleansing."

What Ben Gurion was talking about was self-sufficiency and building a personal connection to the land by actually working to cultivate it. Its that type of infrastructure building that has allowed Jewish society in Israel to rocket past cultures who focus on teaching hate, advocating martyrdom, and building the means to subject neighbors to terror.

Israel's agricultural collectives began in earnest in 1917 when Jews numbered around 56,000 in Mandate Palestine compared to ten times as many Arabs. Zionists of that time who were committed to a Greater Israel reaching from the River to the sea saw two possible solutions to their Arab problem: Separation and transfer, and their genius was recognizing the two crimes were not mutually exclusive.

If the following statistics are valid, it's pretty clear even Jews weren't smart enough to win out in Palestine without deep imperial pockets (and big guns) at their back:

"Under the British Mandate Government, Britain privileged the small Jewish population over the Palestinians. In 1917 there were 56,000 Jews in Palestine and 644,000 Palestinian Arabs. Still Britain gave Jewish capital 90 percent of concessions for projects like building roads and power plants and by 1935, Zionists owned 872 out of the 1,212 industrial firms in Palestine."

The Hidden Roots of Zionism

I see you're already into Summer reruns. Let me know when you get some new material.

 

[toastman]

Establishing agricultural communities does not equate to "ethnic cleansing."

What Ben Gurion was talking about was self-sufficiency and building a personal connection to the land by actually working to cultivate it. Its that type of infrastructure building that has allowed Jewish society in Israel to rocket past cultures who focus on teaching hate, advocating martyrdom, and building the means to subject neighbors to terror.

These "ethnic cleansing" and "apartheid" charges are the latest tags placed on Israel. It means little if nothing.

They are part of the propaganda campaign to vilify Israel

 

[RoccoR]

georgephillip, et al,

Like I said before, in each propaganda effort, there is truth. In this case, shortly before the end of WWI, the Agricultural program rekindled after the interruption of the War.

Israel's agricultural collectives began in earnest in 1917 when Jews numbered around 56,000 in Mandate Palestine compared to ten times as many Arabs. Zionists of that time who were committed to a Greater Israel reaching from the River to the sea saw two possible solutions to their Arab problem: Separation and transfer, and their genius was recognizing the two crimes were not mutually exclusive.

(COMMENT)

This is a case --- the history of the Jewish Agricultural Program was truncated to fit the agenda.

With his firman dated April 5th, 1870, the Sultan Abdul Aziz allocated the "Alliance Israelite Universelle" 2600 dunams of land east of Jaffa for the establishment of a school of agriculture and also granted permission for importing all kinds of tools and machinery free of taxes and customs. As Ben Gouriion, said: "I doubt that the Israeli dream would have been realized if the farm school of Mikveh Israel had not existed."

SOURCE: Ottoman Sultans and Their Jewish Subjects

The Sultan of the Ottoman Empire already knew that the Palestine Region was not efficient at the business of farming and food production. So, the Sultan enlisted the aid of the Jews, well before the emergence of Zionism, to make the region more productive.

The War, understandably, interrupted the various Agricultural Programs initiated by the Sultan, through Jewish innovations, and after the War, they they restarted. The "Alliance Israelite Universelle" (AIU) still exists to this day, on expanded land and property surrounding the originally Imperial Land Grant.

The many of the post-War Agricultural Programs were modeled elsewhere using the AIU as a pattern and template.

It was never a criminal conspiracy as is suggested. But a slight twist to the real historical facts does make a good story and great propaganda on people that might not know the rest of the story.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[georgephillip]

Rocco...do you know anything about Harry Ojalvo?

"Ottoman Sultans and Their Jewish Subjects

by Harry Ojalvo of Istanbul

Ottoman Sultans and Their Jewish Subjects

 

[RoccoR]

georgephillip, et al,

No, I know very little about him, as is with most authors I read.

Rocco...do you know anything about Harry Ojalvo?

"Ottoman Sultans and Their Jewish Subjects

by Harry Ojalvo of Istanbul

Ottoman Sultans and Their Jewish Subjects

(COMMENT)

Are you challenging the author or the content?

Content support:

1870s The French Jewish school network Alliance Israelite Universelle expands throughout the Ottoman Empire in cities with large Jewish populations with a mission to modernise the Jewish communities of the East.
THE JEWS OF TURKEY ISTANBUL,TIMELINE -- Articles by Louis Fisman,Early Settlement,From 4th Century BCE Archaelogical findings indicate Jewish settlement in the Aegean region of Anatolia.,From 220 BCE There are Jewish settlements in Sardes , Miletus ,

French Jews, Turkish Jews: The Alliance Israélite Universelle and the Politics of Jewish Schooling in Turkey, 1860-1925, Bloomington: Indiana University Press, 1990.

The Alliance Israélite Universelle, a French-Jewish organization founded in 1860, occupies a crucial place in the history of Sephardi communities in the modern period. In the fifty years after its creation, the Alliance established a vast network of schools in the lands of Islam for the purpose of "civilizing" the local Jewish communities and remaking them in the idealized self-image of French Jewry.​

Aron Rodrigue | Stanford Department of History

Jewish Heritage Tour in Balat and Haskoy Area, Istanbul daily tour

v/r
R

 

[Hossfly]

georgephillip, et al,

Like I said before, in each propaganda effort, there is truth. In this case, shortly before the end of WWI, the Agricultural program rekindled after the interruption of the War.

Israel's agricultural collectives began in earnest in 1917 when Jews numbered around 56,000 in Mandate Palestine compared to ten times as many Arabs. Zionists of that time who were committed to a Greater Israel reaching from the River to the sea saw two possible solutions to their Arab problem: Separation and transfer, and their genius was recognizing the two crimes were not mutually exclusive.

(COMMENT)

This is a case --- the history of the Jewish Agricultural Program was truncated to fit the agenda.

With his firman dated April 5th, 1870, the Sultan Abdul Aziz allocated the "Alliance Israelite Universelle" 2600 dunams of land east of Jaffa for the establishment of a school of agriculture and also granted permission for importing all kinds of tools and machinery free of taxes and customs. As Ben Gouriion, said: "I doubt that the Israeli dream would have been realized if the farm school of Mikveh Israel had not existed."

SOURCE: Ottoman Sultans and Their Jewish Subjects

The Sultan of the Ottoman Empire already knew that the Palestine Region was not efficient at the business of farming and food production. So, the Sultan enlisted the aid of the Jews, well before the emergence of Zionism, to make the region more productive.

The War, understandably, interrupted the various Agricultural Programs initiated by the Sultan, through Jewish innovations, and after the War, they they restarted. The "Alliance Israelite Universelle" (AIU) still exists to this day, on expanded land and property surrounding the originally Imperial Land Grant.

The many of the post-War Agricultural Programs were modeled elsewhere using the AIU as a pattern and template.

It was never a criminal conspiracy as is suggested. But a slight twist to the real historical facts does make a good story and great propaganda on people that might not know the rest of the story.

Most Respectfully,
R

There is considerable information in all the links in this document. It would behoove George to study them.

The Origins and Evolution of the Palestine Problem - CEIRPP, DPR study - Foreword, table of contents (30 June 1990)

 

[georgephillip]

georgephillip, et al,

No, I know very little about him, as is with most authors I read.

Rocco...do you know anything about Harry Ojalvo?

"Ottoman Sultans and Their Jewish Subjects

by Harry Ojalvo of Istanbul

Ottoman Sultans and Their Jewish Subjects

(COMMENT)

Are you challenging the author or the content?

Content support:

1870s The French Jewish school network Alliance Israelite Universelle expands throughout the Ottoman Empire in cities with large Jewish populations with a mission to modernise the Jewish communities of the East.
THE JEWS OF TURKEY ISTANBUL,TIMELINE -- Articles by Louis Fisman,Early Settlement,From 4th Century BCE Archaelogical findings indicate Jewish settlement in the Aegean region of Anatolia.,From 220 BCE There are Jewish settlements in Sardes , Miletus ,

French Jews, Turkish Jews: The Alliance Israélite Universelle and the Politics of Jewish Schooling in Turkey, 1860-1925, Bloomington: Indiana University Press, 1990.

The Alliance Israélite Universelle, a French-Jewish organization founded in 1860, occupies a crucial place in the history of Sephardi communities in the modern period. In the fifty years after its creation, the Alliance established a vast network of schools in the lands of Islam for the purpose of "civilizing" the local Jewish communities and remaking them in the idealized self-image of French Jewry.​

Aron Rodrigue | Stanford Department of History

Jewish Heritage Tour in Balat and Haskoy Area, Istanbul daily tour

v/r
R

Rocco...if forced to choose between author or content, I would challenge the relevancy of the Alliance Israelite Universelle's expansion throughout the Ottoman Empire in the 19th Century with Lord Rothschild's 20th century generosity towards 56,000 Jews at the expense of 644,000 Palestinian Arabs.

"The British ruling class, which was rabidly anti-Semitic, had its own reasons for this support. Out of the First World War, Arab nationalism had emerged as a major threat to domination of the Middle East and Britain hoped that Zionists could be a useful force for policing the Arabs."

The Hidden Roots of Zionism

 

[georgephillip]

Establishing agricultural communities does not equate to "ethnic cleansing."

What Ben Gurion was talking about was self-sufficiency and building a personal connection to the land by actually working to cultivate it. Its that type of infrastructure building that has allowed Jewish society in Israel to rocket past cultures who focus on teaching hate, advocating martyrdom, and building the means to subject neighbors to terror.

Israel's agricultural collectives began in earnest in 1917 when Jews numbered around 56,000 in Mandate Palestine compared to ten times as many Arabs. Zionists of that time who were committed to a Greater Israel reaching from the River to the sea saw two possible solutions to their Arab problem: Separation and transfer, and their genius was recognizing the two crimes were not mutually exclusive.

If the following statistics are valid, it's pretty clear even Jews weren't smart enough to win out in Palestine without deep imperial pockets (and big guns) at their back:

"Under the British Mandate Government, Britain privileged the small Jewish population over the Palestinians. In 1917 there were 56,000 Jews in Palestine and 644,000 Palestinian Arabs. Still Britain gave Jewish capital 90 percent of concessions for projects like building roads and power plants and by 1935, Zionists owned 872 out of the 1,212 industrial firms in Palestine."

The Hidden Roots of Zionism

I see you're already into Summer reruns. Let me know when you get some new material.

"The 1936–1939 Arab revolt in Palestine was a nationalist uprising by Palestinian Arabs in Mandatory Palestine against British colonial rule, motivated by opposition to mass Jewish immigration..."

"In the four years between 1933 and 1936 more than 164,000 Jewish immigrants arrived in Palestine, and between 1931 and 1936 the Jewish population more than doubled from 175,000 to 370,000 people, increasing the Jewish population share from 17 to 27 per cent, bringing about a significant deterioration in relations between Palestinian Arabs and Jews.[20]"

1936?39 Arab revolt in Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

How would Lords Balfour and Rothschild justify those numbers?