You think you're pro-2nd but you're not

[JGalt]

Thomas Jefferson said

“I am not an advocate for frequent changes in laws and Constitutions. But laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths discovered and manners and opinions change, with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also to keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors.”​

That settles it. With all these changing manners and increase in crime, I need a machine gun too.

 

[Woodznutz]

I want rocket launchers, and mines, lots of mines. Bazookas, and of course some guns for my 6 and 8 year old kids to go to school with.

Check out Amazon. They have everything else.

 

[JGalt]

Check out Amazon. They have everything else.

Amazon's great, but their shipping is pretty high.

It would just be much cheaper to post some really radical shit on here, and the FBI would gladly deliver those rocket launchers, mines, and bazookas right to your door for free.

The one FBI guy I talked to the other day said he'd bring me some Plutonium, but I'm still waiting.

 

[Woodznutz]

That's a good point; technically they just declared that the Heller decision didn't overturn the NFA, they intentionally and explicitly left it alone. The outcome is the same. They didn't protect military weapons and added the new restriction of commonly used.

Heller then was largely moot as thousands of actions/barrels from such as Mauser, Enfield, Springfield, and other military rifles have been 'sporterized' over the years.

 

[Woodznutz]

Amazon's great, but their shipping is pretty high.

It would just be much cheaper to post some really radical shit on here, and the FBI would gladly deliver those rocket launchers, mines, and bazookas right to your door for free.

The one FBI guy I talked to the other day said he'd bring me some Plutonium, but I'm still waiting.

Join Amazon Prime. Shipping is free.

 

[BackAgain]

The fact is, most gun owners support gun control. Most gun owners on this site, support gun control. As an actual pro-2nd-Amendment gun owner, this is very disappointing to me.

You've all read it from me, that the 2nd Amendment says, "Shall not be infringed", and that if you don't support that the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed then you do not support the 2nd Amendment.

For the first 149 years in this country, no attempt was made by the Federal Government to restrict anyone not in prison or jail or a mental hospital from keeping and bearing arms. For the next 30 years, only violent felons were banned. Then in 1968, it became felony litterers as well.

What changed? Was it always acceptable under the Constitution?

For the first 202 years, no background checks were required; it wasn't necessary to get the government's permission in order to exercise a constitutionally protected right.

In Miller, the Supreme Court said that only weapons suited for military use are protected. In Heller, the Court said that weapons suited for military use are not protected and only commonly used, non-military, weapons are protected.

Of course none of these restrictions meet the "shall not be infringed" clause.

So, if you support these restrictions then can you truly claim to support "shall not be infringed"? If you don't support "shall not be infringed" then do you really support the 2nd Amendment?

You might actually support a limited right (privilege) for some people to keep and bear some arms but that doesn't meet the requirements of the 2nd Amendment. The Amendment requires, "shall not be infringed".

Very many gun owners here, and across the nation, talk about reasonable infringements, calling them reasonable restrictions. Their hearts are in the right place; they're emotional about gun deaths and murdered children - more so than the gun grabbers on the left - so they ignore, or are otherwise willing to accept, reasonable infringements.

Gun owners and advocates of the right to keep and bear arms regularly talk about the emotionally-driven responses on the left while supporting gun control driven by their own emotions. Both are wrong. The Constitution must drive the law, not emotions.

Gun owners regularly point out that only the law-abiding obey the gun laws but then, out of emotion, support all sorts of gun control laws that have been proven to do nothing to reduce crime - but they just don't have the no-compromise commitment to their principles or to the 2nd Amendment to publicly call for the end of every infringement and to say that they're all unconstitutional.

So, I'll just say, as the title of this thread says, realizing this will be a hard pill for you to swallow and admit to yourselves, and other than perhaps one or two others on this site, perhaps one or two percent of other gun owners in the nation, no, you may be pro gun, you may like guns, but you do not support the 2nd Amendment.

You are a bit myopic. The first amendment guarantee of freedom of speech appears to be more of an absolute. But it’s not.

The problem with your ability to rationally discuss these matters is that you start off with an unstated but very much ignorant premise. You seem to assume that there is zero room for interpretation. You’re wrong.

The Constitution, itself, isn’t the product of absolutists or fantasists. The Framers attempted to craft a Constitutional republic of limited power and authority including the enumeration of powers and the reservation of rights to the States and to the People. But they weren’t, in that process, attempting to create a eunuch.

Similarly, official recognition of the right to freedom of speech didn’t entail any “right” to chat with the enemy in time of war to reveal troop movements. And, of course, it didn’t intend to permit falsely shouting “fire” in a crowded theater. This is why the recognized and guaranteed right to bear arms doesn’t apply to felons and can validly come with reasonable and limited requirements for licensing and so forth.

 

[sealybobo]

Way to take that quote completely out of context.

That's all you guys do is take the constitution out of context. The bible too. You've been doing it for a millenia.

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

That's all you guys do is take the constitution out of context. The bible too. You've been doing it for a millenia.

Assume that's true. Then, you would appreciate me setting the record straight.

Did you know that Jefferson owned a machine gun?

Puckle gun - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

And an "assault weapon"

Girardoni air rifle - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

You didn't know that did you?

You quoted a guy who would probably deem you a tyrant and a traitor for your anti-gun stances.

 

[sealybobo]

That settles it. With all these changing manners and increase in crime, I need a machine gun too.

Or a ccw and some practice on the range. The cops said the hero was a "very good" marksman.

 

[BackAgain]

That's all you guys do is take the constitution out of context. The bible too. You've been doing it for a millenia.

 

[Delldude]

Way to take that quote completely out of context.

Actually, he unwittingly shows how the founders knew about change and advancements in society and the world and the constitutions adaptability to that.

You have $100 billion?

Whole countries can't even get nukes.

Nice red herring. You're not proving anything.

Whole countries can't get nukes because they do not have the means to produce fissile material.

One guy wants tanks and rockets and bazookas, why can't I have a nuke?

 

[JGalt]

Or a ccw and some practice on the range. The cops said the hero was a "very good" marksman.

I've had a concealed carry permit since 2011. I carry a Glock G19 in a leather Milt Sparks IWB holster with two spare mags, a 350 lumen LED light, and OC spray every day. I handload my own ammo for 10 different calibers, and shoot thousands of rounds in my backyard range every year.

But nobody can really guess how he or she would react in a stressful situation like that, not even myself. I just hope to God that I never do.

 

[JGalt]

Or a ccw and some practice on the range. The cops said the hero was a "very good" marksman.

Machine guns aren't for marksmanship. They're for fun.

Some guns were just meant to be that way. Like the Hi-Point carbine: There really no practical purpose for those, other than having fun plinking at things.

 

[M14 Shooter]

The fact is, most gun owners support gun control. Most gun owners on this site, support gun control. As an actual pro-2nd-Amendment gun owner, this is very disappointing to me.

Oh look. The one true Scotsman.
We must be blessed.

Per you:
-There is no line. There's no "dangerous or unusual" clause in the Constitution, gun controller. You're a fucking idiot and completely unwilling, because you know you're unable, to defend your claim that dangerous or unusual arms, or arms not in common use, are not protected by the 2nd Amendment.
- There is no dangerous and unusual line in the Constitution; the line doesn't exist, gun controller. Tell where the line comes from and what weapons you believe fall into that category, gun controller.
- There's no "except" in there.

Tell us why you believe people have the right to own and use nuclear weapons.
Oh. You don't?
So, there must be a line between the weapons the people have the right to own and the weapons they don't.
And that line must be somewhere between firearms, which you agree we have the right to own and use, and nuclear weapons, which you agree we do not.
Contrary to your claim, and proof of mine.

 

[Votto]

In Heller, the Court said that weapons suited for military use are not protected and only commonly used, non-military, weapons are protected.

No they didn't. They said their ruling didn't necessarily mean all guns were protected. They never said they were not though.

You have to keep the cases coming for job security.

Right, just because it blatantly says we have a right to keep and bear arms does not mean we have a right to keep and bear arms.

Meanwhile, abortion is a explicit Constitutional right.

 

[2aguy]

In Heller, the Court said that weapons suited for military use are not protected and only commonly used, non-military, weapons are protected.

No they didn't. They said their ruling didn't necessarily mean all guns were protected. They never said they were not though.

You have to keep the cases coming for job security.

No....Heller didn't say that....in fact, it cited Miller which stated that arms related to military service were protected by the 2nd Amendment....

 

[sealybobo]

I've had a concealed carry permit since 2011. I carry a Glock G19 in a leather Milt Sparks IWB holster with two spare mags, a 350 lumen LED light, and OC spray every day. I handload my own ammo for 10 different calibers, and shoot thousands of rounds in my backyard range every year.

But nobody can really guess how he or she would react in a stressful situation like that, not even myself. I just hope to God that I never do.

If it ever happens to you, you'll find out those 10,000 hours paid off. Me I'll be empty and the shooter won't be shot. Because I didn't practice enough. I have a Ruger 45 1911. I'm not very accurate with it.

 

[sealybobo]

Machine guns aren't for marksmanship. They're for fun.

Some guns were just meant to be that way. Like the Hi-Point carbine: There really no practical purpose for those, other than having fun plinking at things.

The Hi-Point Carbine is infamous for being used in the Columbine High School massacre, as Eric Harris used the weapon throughout the massacre. The first shots were fired with the Hi-Point Carbine.

 

[JGalt]

If it ever happens to you, you'll find out those 10,000 hours paid off. Me I'll be empty and the shooter won't be shot. Because I didn't practice enough. I have a Ruger 45 1911. I'm not very accurate with it.

Sometimes all the skill in the world fails and luck prevails.

 

[JGalt]

The Hi-Point Carbine is infamous for being used in the Columbine High School massacre, as Eric Harris used the weapon throughout the massacre. The first shots were fired with the Hi-Point Carbine.

I had one of those a few years back. They're fun if you have a lot of ammo to waste, and they have a lifetime guarantee. But it just wasn't practical for anything besides a trunk gun for occasional plinking.