YES, America CERTAINLY WAS FOUNDED as a CHRISTIAN NATION...

[JakeStarkey]

Jefferson's writings clearly prove that he consider the teachings of Jesus to be moral perfection, but not the Man as God. He did not believe in Jesus as Son of God, he did not believe in miracles, virgin births, and so forth and so on. He was a deist, and nothing you have posted have indicated anything differently.

It appears you were wrong about these men. Do you have any Hindus or Buddahists?

You need to review your claims for authenticity. With regard to Thomas Jefferson, the Jefferson letters make it very clear that he had a simple belief: a Creator created and that's the extent of any involvement with humanity. The the Jefferson Bible ends with Jesus being crucified --- and not rising from the dead.

Belief in the resurrection of Jesus is a fundamental component of christianity. To suggest that Thomas Jefferson was a christian is more than just a bit of a stretch.

Did Jefferson finish "his Bible"? Was it a study guide to help him learn, the Bible? Did he end it there because, at that point, he felt his understanding was better?

He did believe in Yeshua, and his prayers indicated that he wished other people would also honor and worship Yeshua.

We write letters to persuade. The letters Jefferson wrote that you think proves he was not a Christian were clearly targeting a person that he did not feel comfortable having deep discussions about personal spiritual beliefs.

Would you please list my "claims for authenticity". I do not remember making any such claims.

 

[Hollie]

I understand. You have no evidence to support your OPINION. Now you want to discuss a Christian "theocracy"? I believe that is the first time that was mentioned in this thread.

You are behaving like a child that has been told they are wrong, and it has been demonstrated that you are wrong. Instead of you considering why you are wrong, you start throwing out accusations that have little or nothing to do with the previous conversation.

Now please provide the evidence that the FF were of faiths other than Christanity, or put your pacifier back into your mouth.

Religion of the Founding Fathers of America

You are under the misapprehension that your assertion to the Christian faith of the FF’s is the final arbiter. It's not that simple and it's your problem you don't realize that. The final arbiter is evidence, and I see nothing in your comments except ballyhoo and blowhard— for which you have apparently decided to be the posterchild.

If you review the link above, you will find identification of the religious beliefs of those generally considerd to be the FF’s of the U.S.

Talk about blowhards....
The drama queens wanted to spout their opinion that the FFs were not Christian. I asked for evidence. I got opinions. When I provided evidence that clearly demonstrates the FFs they claimed were not Christian, prayed, and supported the Christian faith, you want to go off on another tangent?

I am still, STILL waiting for you to back up anything you said about this not being a Christian nation. Guess those "emotions" are hard to present as facts.

You have a rather strange need to define the U.S. as a “Christian” nation. The link I provided you depicts the FF’s as an amalgam of mainstream Christians with many others embracing some rather fringe sects of Christianity. Like many fundies, you have a need to force your religion on those (the FF’s ), who chose a specific course of action in drafting the constitution to prevent Christianity – or any religion – from interfering in the lives of those who were not of the majority religion.

You do come across as a stereotypical bible thumper. Why don’t you define for us the specific requirements for a Christian nation? You insist that the U.S. is such a thing but you don’t define your terms with anything other than “because I say so”.

Facts are not difficult to present. There's just a loud background din of thumping.

 

[Hollie]

Thomas Paine - 01/16/1797
Thomas Paine concerned about the content of our current science courses? Definitely!

In a speech he delivered in Paris on January 16, 1797, Thomas Paine harshly criticized what the French were then teaching in their science classes-especially the philosophy they were using. Interestingly, that same science philosophy of which Thomas Paine was so critical is identical to that used in our public schools today. Paine's indictment of that philosophy is particularly significant in light of the fact that all historians today concede that Thomas Paine was one of the very least religious of our Founders. Yet, even Paine could not abide teaching science, which excluded God's work and hand in the creation of the world and of all scientific phenomena. Below is an excerpt from that speech.

Before too many people read the thread, you may wish to quickly remove references to Thomas Paine as a christian.

Thomas Paine, whose writings spurred the entire Revolution, was absolutely not a Christian.

Paine, of whom it was said, "Without Paine's pen, Washington's sword would never have been wielded", was a thorough-going Deist who's "Age of Reason" deconstructed the bible completely.

Please provide evidence of Paine stating that he was not a "believer" in the Lord. His "common sense" has references to the Lord, as well as crediting the Lord for His works.

Similarly, provide evidence that Thomas Paine claiming to be a "believer".

If you want to understand Paine's thoughts regarding religion, read what he wrote.


Thomas Paine

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church." (Richard Emery Roberts, ed. "Excerpts from The Age of Reason". Selected Writings of Thomas Paine.


"As to religion, I hold it to be the indispensable duty of all government, to protect all conscientious professors thereof, and I know of no other business which government hath to do therewith. . . ."
---Thomas Paine, "Common Sense", 1776


"Persecution is not an original feature in any religion; but it is always the strongly marked feature of all law-religions, or religions established by law."
--Thomas Paine, The Rights of Man, 1791

"Soon after I had published the pamphlet COMMON SENSE, in America, I saw the exceeding probability that a revolution in the system of government would be followed by a revolution in the system of religion. The adulterous connection of church and state, wherever it had taken place, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, had so effectually prohibited, by pains and penalties, every discussion upon established creeds, and upon first principles of religion, that until the system of government should be changed, those subjects could not be brought fairly and openly before the world; but that whenever this should be done, a revolution in the system of religion would follow. Human inventions and priest-craft would be detected; and man would return to the pure, unmixed, and unadulterated belief of one God, and no more."
--Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason, 1794

"EVERY national church or religion has established itself by pretending some special mission from God, communicated to certain individuals. The Jews have their Moses; the Christians their Jesus Christ, their apostles and saints; and the Turks their Mahomet; as if the way to God was not open to every man alike.

"Each of those churches shows certain books, which they call revelation, or the Word of God. The Jews say that their Word of God was given by God to Moses face to face; the Christians say, that their Word of God came by divine inspiration; and the Turks say, that their Word of God (the Koran) was brought by an angel from heaven. Each of those churches accuses the other of unbelief; and, for my own part, I disbelieve them all."
--Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason, 1794

"The Church was resolved to have a New Testament, and as, after the lapse of more than three hundred years, no handwriting could be proved or disproved, the Church, which like former impostors had then gotten possession of the State, had everything its own way. It invented creeds, such as that called the Apostle's Creed, the Nicean Creed, the Athanasian Creed, and out of the loads of rubbish that were presented it voted four to be Gospels, and others to be Epistles, as we now find them arranged."
--Thomas Paine


"The age of ignorance commenced with the Christian system."--Thomas Paine, 2000 Years of Disbelief

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, not by any Church that I know of. My own mind is my own Church."
--Thomas Paine, Excerpts from The Age of Reason: Selected Writings of Thomas Paine, edited by Richard Emery Robers, NY Everybody's Vacation Publishing Co, 1945, p.342

"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."
--Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason

"People in general do not know what wickedness there is in this pretended word of God. Brought up in habits of superstition, they take it for granted that the Bible is true, and that it is good; they permit themselves not to doubt of it, and they carry the ideas they form of the benevolence of the Almighty to the book which they have been taught to believe was written by his authority. Good heavens! it is quite another thing; it is a book of lies, wickedness, and blasphemy; for what can be greater blasphemy than to ascribe the wickedness of man to the orders of the Almighty?"
---Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason

"There is scarcely any part of science, or anything in nature, which those imposters and blasphemers of science, called priests, as well Christians as Jews, have not, at some time or other, perverted, or sought to pervert to the purpose of superstition and falsehood."
-- Thomas Paine


"Yet this is trash that the Church imposes upon the world as the Word of God; this is the collection of lies and contradictions called the Holy Bible! this is the rubbish called Revealed Religion!"
-- Thomas Paine



Sources

http://www.thomaspaine.org/Archives/AOR1.html
http://www.atheism.org/~godlessheathen/Founders.html
Thomas Paine - Wikiquote
http://www.thomaspaine.org/contents.html
http://paganinfo.50g.com/quotes.htm

 

[JakeStarkey]

Hollie, great quotes on the "christian" Thomas Paine (yeah, I am having fun at logical4u's expense).

Christian fundies do have a need to force their beliefs on others. That's why college professors have to straighten out the home and parochial schooled. I am told the professors generally win out over the silliness taught by some parents. As if evolution could ever be a salvation issue!

I am so thankful the FFs created a nation in which church and state are separated, while each of us are allowed to believe as we wish, and to be informed by those beliefs in how we conduct ourselves as political beings in the functioning of the secular government.

The fundies worry too much about what others think.

I have found it interesting to see how much power they have lost in the last eight years. The recent Rep Akin's affair and the GOP party plank on abortion (none at all) have infuriated the women in my southern town. They are saying, a good solid minority of them, they will vote Dem for the first time in their lives or not vote at all. If that is true in the swing states, my GOP is going to get beat very badly in November. A month ago I thought Romney would win. I don't know if it is possible now at all.

 

[Hollie]

You need to review your claims for authenticity. With regard to Thomas Jefferson, the Jefferson letters make it very clear that he had a simple belief: a Creator created and that's the extent of any involvement with humanity. The the Jefferson Bible ends with Jesus being crucified --- and not rising from the dead.

Belief in the resurrection of Jesus is a fundamental component of christianity. To suggest that Thomas Jefferson was a christian is more than just a bit of a stretch.

Did Jefferson finish "his Bible"? Was it a study guide to help him learn, the Bible? Did he end it there because, at that point, he felt his understanding was better?

Provide evidence that was the case.

He did believe in Yeshua, and his prayers indicated that he wished other people would also honor and worship Yeshua.

Provide evidence for such a claim.

We write letters to persuade. The letters Jefferson wrote that you think proves he was not a Christian were clearly targeting a person that he did not feel comfortable having deep discussions about personal spiritual beliefs.

Provide evidence for that claim.

Would you please list my "claims for authenticity". I do not remember making any such claims.

See above.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Hollie, our buddy logical4u cannot provide any solid evidence for any of her claims of Paine, Jefferson, Franklin, and Allan as anything other than non-Christians. Since she can't do it, she yells at you to deflect.

 

[Hollie]

Hollie, our buddy logical4u cannot provide any solid evidence for any of her claims of Paine, Jefferson, Franklin, and Allan as anything other than non-Christians. Since she can't do it, she yells at you to deflect.

I have noticed her typical demands to provide evidence (fair enough), but there is a curious lack of reciprocation on her part.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Reciprocity is not a spiritual gift generally given to fundies, I gather.

 

[logical4u]

Religion of the Founding Fathers of America

You are under the misapprehension that your assertion to the Christian faith of the FF’s is the final arbiter. It's not that simple and it's your problem you don't realize that. The final arbiter is evidence, and I see nothing in your comments except ballyhoo and blowhard— for which you have apparently decided to be the posterchild.

If you review the link above, you will find identification of the religious beliefs of those generally considerd to be the FF’s of the U.S.

Talk about blowhards....
The drama queens wanted to spout their opinion that the FFs were not Christian. I asked for evidence. I got opinions. When I provided evidence that clearly demonstrates the FFs they claimed were not Christian, prayed, and supported the Christian faith, you want to go off on another tangent?

I am still, STILL waiting for you to back up anything you said about this not being a Christian nation. Guess those "emotions" are hard to present as facts.

You have a rather strange need to define the U.S. as a “Christian” nation. The link I provided you depicts the FF’s as an amalgam of mainstream Christians with many others embracing some rather fringe sects of Christianity. Like many fundies, you have a need to force your religion on those (the FF’s ), who chose a specific course of action in drafting the constitution to prevent Christianity – or any religion – from interfering in the lives of those who were not of the majority religion.

You do come across as a stereotypical bible thumper. Why don’t you define for us the specific requirements for a Christian nation? You insist that the U.S. is such a thing but you don’t define your terms with anything other than “because I say so”.

Facts are not difficult to present. There's just a loud background din of thumping.

Wow! I have presented fact, after fact, after fact. You, not so much. And when I ask you to present something to back up your OPINION. You ask for me to deliver more to you. Yawn.

 

[UltimateReality]

The point remains the Founders did not create a religious nation, only a secular government dedicated to keeping organized religion out of government.

Ah yes, and now we get even closer to the truth.

 

[Peach]

Hollie, great quotes on the "christian" Thomas Paine (yeah, I am having fun at logical4u's expense).

Christian fundies do have a need to force their beliefs on others. That's why college professors have to straighten out the home and parochial schooled. I am told the professors generally win out over the silliness taught by some parents. As if evolution could ever be a salvation issue!

I am so thankful the FFs created a nation in which church and state are separated, while each of us are allowed to believe as we wish, and to be informed by those beliefs in how we conduct ourselves as political beings in the functioning of the secular government.

The fundies worry too much about what others think.

I have found it interesting to see how much power they have lost in the last eight years. The recent Rep Akin's affair and the GOP party plank on abortion (none at all) have infuriated the women in my southern town. They are saying, a good solid minority of them, they will vote Dem for the first time in their lives or not vote at all. If that is true in the swing states, my GOP is going to get beat very badly in November. A month ago I thought Romney would win. I don't know if it is possible now at all.

Paine was perhaps the most outspoken, but Franklin also was closer to being an agnostic than a "Christian".

 

[UltimateReality]

I understand. You have no evidence to support your OPINION. Now you want to discuss a Christian "theocracy"? I believe that is the first time that was mentioned in this thread.

You are behaving like a child that has been told they are wrong, and it has been demonstrated that you are wrong. Instead of you considering why you are wrong, you start throwing out accusations that have little or nothing to do with the previous conversation.

Now please provide the evidence that the FF were of faiths other than Christanity, or put your pacifier back into your mouth.

Religion of the Founding Fathers of America

You are under the misapprehension that your assertion to the Christian faith of the FF’s is the final arbiter. It's not that simple and it's your problem you don't realize that. The final arbiter is evidence, and I see nothing in your comments except ballyhoo and blowhard— for which you have apparently decided to be the posterchild.

If you review the link above, you will find identification of the religious beliefs of those generally considerd to be the FF’s of the U.S.

Talk about blowhards....
The drama queens wanted to spout their opinion that the FFs were not Christian. I asked for evidence. I got opinions. When I provided evidence that clearly demonstrates the FFs they claimed were not Christian, prayed, and supported the Christian faith, you want to go off on another tangent?

I am still, STILL waiting for you to back up anything you said about this not being a Christian nation. Guess those "emotions" are hard to present as facts.

You will be waiting a long time for Hollie. Hollie could present a logical argument if his life depended on it. He gets the award for most frustrating responses. Hollie never stays on topic and his responses typical aren't even relevant to the post he is responding to. Then he just trails off with some Christian attack diatribe and your left totally confused at how someone could use so many words to say absolutely nothing.

 

[CMike]

The founding fathers were deists.

 

[UltimateReality]

George Washington, Episcopal Vestryman
Washington was for many years a vestryman at Truro Parish, his local Episcopal Church. The entry of June 5, 1772, shows Washington and his neighbor, George Mason, the author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights, engaged in parish business, including making arrangements for replacing the front steps of the church, painting its roof and selling church pews to the members as a means of obtaining revenue. The minutes of the meeting also reveal that Washington and George William Fairfax presented the parish with gold leaf to be used to gild letters on "Carved Ornaments" on the altar.

 

[UltimateReality]

Adams on Religion
John Adams, a self-confessed "church going animal," grew up in the Congregational Church in Braintree, Massachusetts. By the time he wrote this letter his theological position can best be described as Unitarian. In this letter Adams tells Jefferson that "Without Religion this World would be Something not fit to be mentioned in polite Company, I mean Hell."

 

[Hollie]

Religion of the Founding Fathers of America

You are under the misapprehension that your assertion to the Christian faith of the FF’s is the final arbiter. It's not that simple and it's your problem you don't realize that. The final arbiter is evidence, and I see nothing in your comments except ballyhoo and blowhard— for which you have apparently decided to be the posterchild.

If you review the link above, you will find identification of the religious beliefs of those generally considerd to be the FF’s of the U.S.

Talk about blowhards....
The drama queens wanted to spout their opinion that the FFs were not Christian. I asked for evidence. I got opinions. When I provided evidence that clearly demonstrates the FFs they claimed were not Christian, prayed, and supported the Christian faith, you want to go off on another tangent?

I am still, STILL waiting for you to back up anything you said about this not being a Christian nation. Guess those "emotions" are hard to present as facts.

You will be waiting a long time for Hollie. Hollie could present a logical argument if his life depended on it. He gets the award for most frustrating responses. Hollie never stays on topic and his responses typical aren't even relevant to the post he is responding to. Then he just trails off with some Christian attack diatribe and your left totally confused at how someone could use so many words to say absolutely nothing.

An entire paragraph of whining.

 

[Hollie]

Adams on Religion
John Adams, a self-confessed "church going animal," grew up in the Congregational Church in Braintree, Massachusetts. By the time he wrote this letter his theological position can best be described as Unitarian. In this letter Adams tells Jefferson that "Without Religion this World would be Something not fit to be mentioned in polite Company, I mean Hell."

"Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind."
-- John Adams, "A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America"



"The priesthood have, in all ancient nations, nearly monopolized learning.... And, even since the Reformation, when or where has existed a Protestant or dissenting sect who would tolerate A FREE INQUIRY? The blackest billingsgate, the most ungentlemanly insolence, the most yahooish brutality is patiently endured, countenanced, propagated, and applauded. But touch a solemn truth in collision with a dogma of a sect, though capable of the clearest proof, and you will soon find you have disturbed a nest, and the hornets will swarm about your legs and hands, and fly into your face and eyes."
-- John Adams, letter to John Taylor, 1814

 

[Hollie]

George Washington, Episcopal Vestryman
Washington was for many years a vestryman at Truro Parish, his local Episcopal Church. The entry of June 5, 1772, shows Washington and his neighbor, George Mason, the author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights, engaged in parish business, including making arrangements for replacing the front steps of the church, painting its roof and selling church pews to the members as a means of obtaining revenue. The minutes of the meeting also reveal that Washington and George William Fairfax presented the parish with gold leaf to be used to gild letters on "Carved Ornaments" on the altar.

Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be deprecated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society.

[George Washington, letter to Edward Newenham, October 20, 1792; from George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 726]



Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than thsoe which spring from any other cause.
[George Washington, letter to Sir Edward Newenham, June 22, 1792]

 

[JakeStarkey]

UR is finally getting it! Good for him.

The point remains the Founders did not create a religious nation, only a secular government dedicated to keeping organized religion out of government.

Ah yes, and now we get even closer to the truth.

 

[JakeStarkey]

So what. Unimportant to the argument. Why? Vestryman was part of the county commissioners' job, UR. One had to belong to the Anglican Church, which Washington and Jefferson certainly did, and both served as vestryman. In other words, if a Virginian went into politics in VA, he was most likely going to be Anglican despite his real religious beliefs.

Jefferson was a deist and Washington was certainly no one's concept of today's far right wack conservative Christian.

George Washington, Episcopal Vestryman
Washington was for many years a vestryman at Truro Parish, his local Episcopal Church. The entry of June 5, 1772, shows Washington and his neighbor, George Mason, the author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights, engaged in parish business, including making arrangements for replacing the front steps of the church, painting its roof and selling church pews to the members as a means of obtaining revenue. The minutes of the meeting also reveal that Washington and George William Fairfax presented the parish with gold leaf to be used to gild letters on "Carved Ornaments" on the altar.