Woman shot 3 times by 2 home invaders...able to return fire...and lives....

[2aguy]

Neither does CATO....you still aren't seeing it are you?

Yes the Cato study does. What cato study are you talking about now?

Tough Targets...from their white paper on the defensive use of guns as found in the media.....

And what finding in the study do you think is so important?

More so there points on the why the FBI homicide stats are innaccurate, though probably the best we can do, their point that of the 5,000 stories they looked at only 12 were crimnals involved in criminal activity....and why the NCVS is such a bad tool for understanding defensive gun uses....since it is the only study that doesn't specifically ask about that and only gets their asking general crime questions......

And they also have a nice collection of actual shooting stories that can dispel anti gun myths.....

Ok so now you bring up how many were involved in criminal activity after claiming it doesn't discuss that. None of their claims are valid and since they are a very pro gun source can't be taken seriously.

No....you said their focus was on disproving criminal activity in their study....I said that wasn't the point of their study....

 

[2aguy]

Brain....how is the CATO institute more Pro gun than the NRA "The Armed Citizen" research....do you even realize what you are posting?

 

[2aguy]

Soooo...from the NRA "The Armed Citizen" study you praise for it's accuracy...three defensive shootings that required more than 3 bullets, one needing 13...to stop a lion attack.....

I'll add all these....

Enemy Within The Jim Patterson Incident American Handgunner

hit guy 5 times to stop...

Also....prosectued though cleared by police

Masaad ayoob mag ban hearing testimony includes 3 cases where more than 3 rounds fired...

http://extras.mnginteractive.com/li..._032508_062614-Krieger-Opinion-Outfitters.pdf

Massad Ayoob, identified only three anecdotal instances in which individuals engaging

28Case 1:13-cv-01300-MSK-MJW Document 159 Filed 06/26/14 USDC Colorado Page 29 of 50

in defensive use of firearms fired more than 15 rounds, and not all of these successful defensive actions involved semiautomatic weapons.23 Of the many law enforcement officials called to testify, none were able to identify a single instance in which they were involved where a single civilian fired more than 15 shots in self-defense.24 (Indeed, the record reflects that many law enforcement agencies, including the Colorado State Patrol, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, and the New York City Police Department equip their officers with 15-round or smaller

23

The first incident involved a gun shop owner who lived next door to the shop. One night, carloads of people drove through his storefront to steal guns. In defending his property, the shop owner used a fully automatic M-16 and a fully automatic 9mm submachine gun to fire over 100 rounds. One perpetrator was killed, others were injured, and all were captured and convicted.

The second incident involved a man who owned a watch shop in Los Angeles and who had been involved in a series of “gun fights.” (Presumably, he had been robbed repeatedly.) The shop owner began keeping multiple pistols hidden in his shop. Mr. Ayoob recalled that at least one of the gun fights “went beyond” 17 or 19 shots before the last of the multiple perpetrators was down or had fled.

The third incident involved a Virginia jewelry store that was robbed by “two old gangster type guys.” The two brothers who owned the store successfully defended themselves and their property using multiple revolvers (not semiautomatic weapons) that were kept behind the counter. Mr. Ayoob did not specify how many rounds were fired in that incident.

************


Dr who brought gun into gun free zone shoots patient 3 times


Armed Doctor Opens Fire and Stops Active Shooter in Pennsylvania Hospital


Woman shoots home invader 5 times...


Woman hiding with kids shoots intruder www.wsbtv.com

So there you go Brain.....over 3 rounds and over 15 rounds....multiple stories.........your point is debunked....

Many of your examples aren't of people shooting more than 10 times...

Here is a long list of just the mass shooters:
A Killing Machine Half of All Mass Shooters Used High-Capacity Magazines Mother Jones

After you match those I'll then go into gang activity and how many people get killed by strays when they empty their hi cap magazines.

Another anti gun lie Brain.....they mention two actual stories of "high capacity" magazines....33 rounds and 100 round drum......the rest are standard capacity magazines....they are lying to push their agenda......

 

[2aguy]

Brain...did you read the mother jones piece....they show how stupid they are by pointing out in the middle of their story that "high capacity" magazines were against the law......and criminals still got them and used them......they are idiots....

A Killing Machine Half of All Mass Shooters Used High-Capacity Magazines Mother Jones

In 1997, a gunman in Orange, California, fired nearly 150 shots, wielding an AK-47 with a 30-round magazine three years after a federal law banned such assault weapons.

You can't stop criminals from using "high Capacity" magazines...and this guy didn't...a 30 round magazine is a standard magazine for the then illegal AK-47 rifle...which was against the law to own then.......they are idiots....

 

[Brain357]

Sorry Brain...good people have needed more than 2 shots to stop violent criminal attackers....you can move the goal post all you want......but you are wrong.....you cannot set a limit on how many rounds good, decent, innocent, law abiding citizens can have at their disposal to save their lives.....

Especially considering that whatever limit you do decide on....will be ignored completely by criminals....considering the most recent real world examples in Canada, Australia and France.....France, that has gun control American anti gunners can only dream about......where 3 terrorists, 1 a convicted criminal and 2 on government terrorist watch lists got fully automatic weapons with "high capacity" magazines (that is normal capacity magazines) and had all the bullets they wanted, they also had a rocket propelled grenade and hand grenades.......if you can't stop magazines in France or anywhere else, you can't stop them here....

And here is another story....she shot 12 times and had to reload once.....

Report Woman unloads reloads on alleged intruder

The victim's wife heard the commotion and came out of the bedroom carrying a handgun, the report said. She reportedly dove on the floor and opened fire at the suspect.

According to the report, the suspect returned fire. That's when the victim's wife reportedly grabbed another handgun from the bedroom and kept shooting.

We have and I definitely would. Again for every time some bad shot needs to reload defending there are many criminals using them to kill innocent people. I think it is dangerous to everyone around to have this shootouts with hi cap magazines.

 

[Brain357]

Soooo...from the NRA "The Armed Citizen" study you praise for it's accuracy...three defensive shootings that required more than 3 bullets, one needing 13...to stop a lion attack.....

I'll add all these....

Enemy Within The Jim Patterson Incident American Handgunner

hit guy 5 times to stop...

Also....prosectued though cleared by police

Masaad ayoob mag ban hearing testimony includes 3 cases where more than 3 rounds fired...

http://extras.mnginteractive.com/li..._032508_062614-Krieger-Opinion-Outfitters.pdf

Massad Ayoob, identified only three anecdotal instances in which individuals engaging

28Case 1:13-cv-01300-MSK-MJW Document 159 Filed 06/26/14 USDC Colorado Page 29 of 50

in defensive use of firearms fired more than 15 rounds, and not all of these successful defensive actions involved semiautomatic weapons.23 Of the many law enforcement officials called to testify, none were able to identify a single instance in which they were involved where a single civilian fired more than 15 shots in self-defense.24 (Indeed, the record reflects that many law enforcement agencies, including the Colorado State Patrol, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, and the New York City Police Department equip their officers with 15-round or smaller

23

The first incident involved a gun shop owner who lived next door to the shop. One night, carloads of people drove through his storefront to steal guns. In defending his property, the shop owner used a fully automatic M-16 and a fully automatic 9mm submachine gun to fire over 100 rounds. One perpetrator was killed, others were injured, and all were captured and convicted.

The second incident involved a man who owned a watch shop in Los Angeles and who had been involved in a series of “gun fights.” (Presumably, he had been robbed repeatedly.) The shop owner began keeping multiple pistols hidden in his shop. Mr. Ayoob recalled that at least one of the gun fights “went beyond” 17 or 19 shots before the last of the multiple perpetrators was down or had fled.

The third incident involved a Virginia jewelry store that was robbed by “two old gangster type guys.” The two brothers who owned the store successfully defended themselves and their property using multiple revolvers (not semiautomatic weapons) that were kept behind the counter. Mr. Ayoob did not specify how many rounds were fired in that incident.

************


Dr who brought gun into gun free zone shoots patient 3 times


Armed Doctor Opens Fire and Stops Active Shooter in Pennsylvania Hospital


Woman shoots home invader 5 times...


Woman hiding with kids shoots intruder www.wsbtv.com

So there you go Brain.....over 3 rounds and over 15 rounds....multiple stories.........your point is debunked....

Many of your examples aren't of people shooting more than 10 times...

Here is a long list of just the mass shooters:
A Killing Machine Half of All Mass Shooters Used High-Capacity Magazines Mother Jones

After you match those I'll then go into gang activity and how many people get killed by strays when they empty their hi cap magazines.

Another anti gun lie Brain.....they mention two actual stories of "high capacity" magazines....33 rounds and 100 round drum......the rest are standard capacity magazines....they are lying to push their agenda......

They are counting any above 10 which is what I would also count.

 

[Brain357]

Brain...did you read the mother jones piece....they show how stupid they are by pointing out in the middle of their story that "high capacity" magazines were against the law......and criminals still got them and used them......they are idiots....

A Killing Machine Half of All Mass Shooters Used High-Capacity Magazines Mother Jones

In 1997, a gunman in Orange, California, fired nearly 150 shots, wielding an AK-47 with a 30-round magazine three years after a federal law banned such assault weapons.

You can't stop criminals from using "high Capacity" magazines...and this guy didn't...a 30 round magazine is a standard magazine for the then illegal AK-47 rifle...which was against the law to own then.......they are idiots....

They have never been against the law. The sale of new ones has been against the law, but having them has not been. I wouldn't make them illegal to own either.

 

[2aguy]

Sorry Brain...good people have needed more than 2 shots to stop violent criminal attackers....you can move the goal post all you want......but you are wrong.....you cannot set a limit on how many rounds good, decent, innocent, law abiding citizens can have at their disposal to save their lives.....

Especially considering that whatever limit you do decide on....will be ignored completely by criminals....considering the most recent real world examples in Canada, Australia and France.....France, that has gun control American anti gunners can only dream about......where 3 terrorists, 1 a convicted criminal and 2 on government terrorist watch lists got fully automatic weapons with "high capacity" magazines (that is normal capacity magazines) and had all the bullets they wanted, they also had a rocket propelled grenade and hand grenades.......if you can't stop magazines in France or anywhere else, you can't stop them here....

And here is another story....she shot 12 times and had to reload once.....

Report Woman unloads reloads on alleged intruder

The victim's wife heard the commotion and came out of the bedroom carrying a handgun, the report said. She reportedly dove on the floor and opened fire at the suspect.

According to the report, the suspect returned fire. That's when the victim's wife reportedly grabbed another handgun from the bedroom and kept shooting.

We have and I definitely would. Again for every time some bad shot needs to reload defending there are many criminals using them to kill innocent people. I think it is dangerous to everyone around to have this shootouts with hi cap magazines.

Unless you are the innocent, law abiding citizen who needs those bullets to stop the violent criminal thug who has illegal "high capacity" magazines which are forbidden to own for the law abiding........don't you see how stupid that idea is.....? Only the good, innocent, law abiding citizen will be forced to reload...why....because he won't be using the illegal magazines....but the criminals will......

 

[2aguy]

Soooo...from the NRA "The Armed Citizen" study you praise for it's accuracy...three defensive shootings that required more than 3 bullets, one needing 13...to stop a lion attack.....

I'll add all these....

Enemy Within The Jim Patterson Incident American Handgunner

hit guy 5 times to stop...

Also....prosectued though cleared by police

Masaad ayoob mag ban hearing testimony includes 3 cases where more than 3 rounds fired...

http://extras.mnginteractive.com/li..._032508_062614-Krieger-Opinion-Outfitters.pdf

Massad Ayoob, identified only three anecdotal instances in which individuals engaging

28Case 1:13-cv-01300-MSK-MJW Document 159 Filed 06/26/14 USDC Colorado Page 29 of 50

in defensive use of firearms fired more than 15 rounds, and not all of these successful defensive actions involved semiautomatic weapons.23 Of the many law enforcement officials called to testify, none were able to identify a single instance in which they were involved where a single civilian fired more than 15 shots in self-defense.24 (Indeed, the record reflects that many law enforcement agencies, including the Colorado State Patrol, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, and the New York City Police Department equip their officers with 15-round or smaller

23

The first incident involved a gun shop owner who lived next door to the shop. One night, carloads of people drove through his storefront to steal guns. In defending his property, the shop owner used a fully automatic M-16 and a fully automatic 9mm submachine gun to fire over 100 rounds. One perpetrator was killed, others were injured, and all were captured and convicted.

The second incident involved a man who owned a watch shop in Los Angeles and who had been involved in a series of “gun fights.” (Presumably, he had been robbed repeatedly.) The shop owner began keeping multiple pistols hidden in his shop. Mr. Ayoob recalled that at least one of the gun fights “went beyond” 17 or 19 shots before the last of the multiple perpetrators was down or had fled.

The third incident involved a Virginia jewelry store that was robbed by “two old gangster type guys.” The two brothers who owned the store successfully defended themselves and their property using multiple revolvers (not semiautomatic weapons) that were kept behind the counter. Mr. Ayoob did not specify how many rounds were fired in that incident.

************


Dr who brought gun into gun free zone shoots patient 3 times


Armed Doctor Opens Fire and Stops Active Shooter in Pennsylvania Hospital


Woman shoots home invader 5 times...


Woman hiding with kids shoots intruder www.wsbtv.com

So there you go Brain.....over 3 rounds and over 15 rounds....multiple stories.........your point is debunked....

Many of your examples aren't of people shooting more than 10 times...

Here is a long list of just the mass shooters:
A Killing Machine Half of All Mass Shooters Used High-Capacity Magazines Mother Jones

After you match those I'll then go into gang activity and how many people get killed by strays when they empty their hi cap magazines.

Another anti gun lie Brain.....they mention two actual stories of "high capacity" magazines....33 rounds and 100 round drum......the rest are standard capacity magazines....they are lying to push their agenda......

They are counting any above 10 which is what I would also count.

And they are stupid.....banning 10 round magazines does nothing to stop mass shootings....or stop gun crime......just ask the 12 murdered journalists in France where any magazine is against the law.........let alone only 10 rounders....


Can't you anti gunners actually come up with something that will keep criminals from committing actual crimes....?

 

[2aguy]

Have a nice weekend Brain....

 

[Brain357]

Sorry Brain...good people have needed more than 2 shots to stop violent criminal attackers....you can move the goal post all you want......but you are wrong.....you cannot set a limit on how many rounds good, decent, innocent, law abiding citizens can have at their disposal to save their lives.....

Especially considering that whatever limit you do decide on....will be ignored completely by criminals....considering the most recent real world examples in Canada, Australia and France.....France, that has gun control American anti gunners can only dream about......where 3 terrorists, 1 a convicted criminal and 2 on government terrorist watch lists got fully automatic weapons with "high capacity" magazines (that is normal capacity magazines) and had all the bullets they wanted, they also had a rocket propelled grenade and hand grenades.......if you can't stop magazines in France or anywhere else, you can't stop them here....

And here is another story....she shot 12 times and had to reload once.....

Report Woman unloads reloads on alleged intruder

The victim's wife heard the commotion and came out of the bedroom carrying a handgun, the report said. She reportedly dove on the floor and opened fire at the suspect.

According to the report, the suspect returned fire. That's when the victim's wife reportedly grabbed another handgun from the bedroom and kept shooting.

We have and I definitely would. Again for every time some bad shot needs to reload defending there are many criminals using them to kill innocent people. I think it is dangerous to everyone around to have this shootouts with hi cap magazines.

Unless you are the innocent, law abiding citizen who needs those bullets to stop the violent criminal thug who has illegal "high capacity" magazines which are forbidden to own for the law abiding........don't you see how stupid that idea is.....? Only the good, innocent, law abiding citizen will be forced to reload...why....because he won't be using the illegal magazines....but the criminals will......

They should go to the range more often and become a better shot. Based on the study the vast majority of defense are 2-3 shots. 10 should be more than enough.

 

[2aguy]

Sorry Brain...good people have needed more than 2 shots to stop violent criminal attackers....you can move the goal post all you want......but you are wrong.....you cannot set a limit on how many rounds good, decent, innocent, law abiding citizens can have at their disposal to save their lives.....

Especially considering that whatever limit you do decide on....will be ignored completely by criminals....considering the most recent real world examples in Canada, Australia and France.....France, that has gun control American anti gunners can only dream about......where 3 terrorists, 1 a convicted criminal and 2 on government terrorist watch lists got fully automatic weapons with "high capacity" magazines (that is normal capacity magazines) and had all the bullets they wanted, they also had a rocket propelled grenade and hand grenades.......if you can't stop magazines in France or anywhere else, you can't stop them here....

And here is another story....she shot 12 times and had to reload once.....

Report Woman unloads reloads on alleged intruder

The victim's wife heard the commotion and came out of the bedroom carrying a handgun, the report said. She reportedly dove on the floor and opened fire at the suspect.

According to the report, the suspect returned fire. That's when the victim's wife reportedly grabbed another handgun from the bedroom and kept shooting.

We have and I definitely would. Again for every time some bad shot needs to reload defending there are many criminals using them to kill innocent people. I think it is dangerous to everyone around to have this shootouts with hi cap magazines.

Unless you are the innocent, law abiding citizen who needs those bullets to stop the violent criminal thug who has illegal "high capacity" magazines which are forbidden to own for the law abiding........don't you see how stupid that idea is.....? Only the good, innocent, law abiding citizen will be forced to reload...why....because he won't be using the illegal magazines....but the criminals will......

They should go to the range more often and become a better shot. Based on the study the vast majority of defense are 2-3 shots. 10 should be more than enough.

But sometimes it isn't...and an innocent life is on the line........

 

[Skull Pilot]

Her being stupid was a bad idea.

And what makes you think people want you to warn them about their life choices? WHat other people do is none of your business

I very rarely carry a gun but I have the option. My weapons are more for home defense than anything else because where I live it would take the cops at least 30 minutes if not more to respond. I'm not fearful of a break in but I am prepared nonetheless. You aren't and that's your choice.
You live in fear of accidents. FYI accidents are the leading cause of death in people under the age of 45.

Some people on here act like you need to carry to be safe. I just give the other side of the story. I don't see why gun people are so offended by statistics, surveys, and studies. Do you prefer to be blind to the facts?

The fact is I have been a gun owner since i was 16 and am now 47 and have never once been the victim of a firearm accident.

I have been in several car accidents one where I was driving and 3 when someone else was driving. As far as I'm concerned and based on my life experience my guns are safer than any cars yet I still choose to drive and ride in automobiles

Those are my stats and facts. I choose to live by those numbers and not yours.

If you want to live your life by studies and statistics rather than by your own choices that's up to you.

How man hours do you think you have spent driving compared to the number of hours spent shooting?

I realize my own experience is very limited. Based on my own experience it would be an easy choice. I have never needed a gun, nor has my family or friends. But obviously some people have so I am still interested in the stats.

Your line is the mere owning of a gun makes you more likely to be involved or injured in a firearm accident.

More likely that what?

As I said I have owned firearms and shot them on a regular basis for over 30 years and have had zero firearm accidents.

Every gun owner knows the risks involved and can make his own risk reward analysis. They don't need you to tell them what to do

You didn't answer my question.

I'm not telling anyone what to do. I'm just giving the facts.

no you said yourself that you are "warning" people.

And I do not have an accounting of how many hours of my life have been spent shooting or driving for that matter.

Do you?

 

[Skull Pilot]

Brain...do you really want to stand your ground...a pun....on this study...since it undermines your stance on magazine capacity.......you know that...right......?

Good guys need lots of bullets....

When more than 2 shots were fired, it generally appeared that the defender’s initial response was to fire until empty. It appears that revolver shooters are more likely to empty their guns than autoloader shooters.

Yes and no it doesn't. It shows the vast majority of defenses don't need a hi capacity magazine.

Sorry..."the vast majority" is not 100% so you are wrong....you can't arbitrarily limit a law abiding citizens ammo capacity...since these aren't the only 3 incidents with more than 2 and more than 10 rounds fired....your theory is now shot to crap.....from your own source......

No it is not shot to crap. I can give you MANY more instances of criminals emptying hi cap magazines than you can give me defenses using them. And most the defenders probably didn't NEED to fire so many times.

If criminals have high cap mags why shouldn't law abiding people?

The whole magazine size argument is a red herring anyway