“Without peace with the Palestinians, Israel can never live in peace”

[irosie91]

Would YOU make peace with someone who has invaded your home and has been oppressing you & your family ever since??? Please keep it civil - there's no need for insults.

Would YOU? One of the first and ONLY comprehensive genocides in history---was the complete genocide of Jews in Arabia.. Genocides are tough but virtually never COMPLETE with
the EXCEPTION that proves the rule

 

[Dogmaphobe]

Would YOU? One of the first and ONLY comprehensive genocides in history---was the complete genocide of Jews in Arabia.. Genocides are tough but virtually never COMPLETE with
the EXCEPTION that proves the rule

I am still eating for the stupid little jihadist to explain how little babies are oppressing him.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Would YOU make peace with someone who has invaded your home and has been oppressing you & your family ever since??? Please keep it civil - there's no need for insults.

you ignore the fact the Palestinians DONT want peace and then blame the Jews for it, that is idiotic.

 

[SavannahMann]

I urge fellow members to make the effort to read the entire deeply emotive & eloquent article below written by an Israeli journalist. Amid terror, bloodshed, destruction and total chaos, one should still try to hold on to their humanity.

In our civilised world, revenge is not justice!

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Excerpts:

“We feel fear, anger and helplessness: all of Israel is in a state of war. But revenge is not the answer”. By Orly Noy, Israeli journalist and editor at the Hebrew-language news magazine Local Call.

We feel fear, anger and helplessness: all of Israel is in a state of war. But revenge is not the answer | Orly Noy

We are in shock as we digest the Hamas attacks and the failings of Netanyahu’s government. The worry now is what comes next.

It is still impossible to digest these darker-than-dark days that began with sirens jolting us awake on Saturday morning, a day that seems endless and probably won’t end for many days to come. The thought of the abductees in the Gaza Strip is crumpling me down with pain. Every thought of them leaves a layer of terror on the skin. The images and reports of bodies strewn in every corner, of families held hostage for hours as human shields in their own homes by Hamas militants, still haunt the mind, freezing the heart.

The absolute shock caused by Hamas’s attack on southern towns has taken various forms as the hours pass: fear, helplessness, anger, and above all, a deep sense of chaos. The colossal failures of Benjamin Netanyahu’s government and the security apparatus are converging into a sense of total breakdown. The intelligence system, which surveils every aspect of Palestinians’ lives in Gaza and the West Bank, had no prior knowledge of the attack; civilians were left defenceless for many hours against Hamas militants, who trapped them in their homes and slaughtered them without military intervention – the same military tasked with protecting every settler in the West Bank at any given moment.

Amid this absolute chaos, Netanyahu addressed citizens late on Saturday: a hollow statement with slogans such as “we will win”, “we will strike them”, “we will annihilate terrorism”. He is a man of many slogans. He promises Israel will “take mighty vengeance” and that “the enemy will pay an unprecedented price”, suffering “return fire of a magnitude that the enemy has not known”.

That language is deliberate. For while a traumatised Israeli public is not yet ready to seek the deep political and moral reckoning this catastrophe demands, the anger already directed towards Netanyahu is palpable. A prime minister entangled in legal proceedings appointed, to suit his own political needs, people who were not only extremely hawkish but also highly unprofessional – and put them in charge of our security. Rightfully he is now seen as personally responsible. He seeks to save his own political skin, once again, by urging the Knesset to establish a national emergency government, much like the one he formed three years ago with the leader of the National Unity party, Benny Gantz, under the pretext of a coronavirus response. But even without that national emergency government being formed, the Jewish opposition in the Knesset fully supports the government’s deadly attack on Gaza. And they are not alone: many Israelis want to see the entire Gaza Strip pay an unprecedented price.

The public desire for revenge is both understandable and terrifying, but the erasure of any moral red line is always a frightening thing.

It is important not to minimise or condone the heinous crimes committed by Hamas. But it is also important to remind ourselves that everything it is inflicting on us now, we have been inflicting on the Palestinians for years. Indiscriminate firing, including at children and older people; intrusion into their homes; burning down their houses; taking hostages – not just fighters but civilians, children and older people. I keep reminding myself that ignoring this context is giving up a piece of my own humanity. Because violence devoid of any context leads to only one possible response: revenge. And I don’t want revenge from anyone. Because revenge is the opposite of security, it is the opposite of peace, it is also the opposite of justice. It is nothing but more violence.

I maintain that there are crimes of abundance and there are crimes of hunger, and we have not only brought Gaza to the brink of starvation, we have brought it to a state of collapse. Always in the name of security. How much security did we get? Where will another round of revenge take us?

Terrible crimes were committed against Israelis this Saturday, crimes that the mind cannot fathom – and in this time of dark grief, I cling to the one thing I have left to hold on to: my humanity. The absolute belief that this hell is not predestined. Not for us, nor for them.

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Replies to the above article:

Thank you, Orly Noy, for capturing the horror, terror and desolate grief with a fair accountability of how such a heinous attack comes into being (We feel fear, anger and helplessness: all of Israel is in a state of war. But revenge is not the answer, 9 October). Two days before the horrific attack by Hamas, I finished reading the anthology Light in Gaza, by Palestinians writing about their lives under 16 years of Israel’s blockade. It is profound, inspiring, heart-wrenching, and powerfully important to help understand how hate is perpetuated by ongoing oppression and persecution, which feeds the violence of Hamas.

The attacks by Hamas are horrific and so are the retaliation strikes and blockade of food and water and medical supplies for more than 2 million people.

Had we acknowledged that we built modern Israel on stolen land and that 750,000 Palestinians were expelled or fled; had we made some effort at reparations; had we treated Palestinians with the same rights as we treat Israeli Jews; had there been one law for all people, as taught by Leviticus 24:22, it is much more likely that so much of this violence could have been prevented.

But a justice system that allows ongoing theft and violence against a people can only lead to deepening rage and violence. May we learn from these attacks and fight against all injustice and violence. May we grieve all of the deaths, wounding and horrific oppression.


Harriet Cooke-Cohen
Portland, Oregon, US

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It is with horror and deep sorrow that I read about the latest violence in Israel and Palestine. I feel so sad for all those people, Palestinian and Israeli, who have been working with all they have towards finding a just and lasting peace. Fighting and violence, whether it’s Hamas or the Israeli military, is the same: violence and disaster for civilians and for humanity. The only answer is to dissolve violence, aggression, guns and walls, and accept that what you sow, you reap.

If security is required, a true feeling of safety will need to be fostered for all occupants and generations in Israel and Palestine. How much money has the US given to Israel for weapons and military security? These funds need to go towards reconciliation, towards working for a genuine lasting peace in Palestine and Israel.


Karen Sillence
Bristol

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There was a phrase used in Northern Ireland during the Troubles – “acceptable level of violence”. The Israeli people have lived like this since the last intifada, or perhaps since 1967. Surely history should have taught them that you cannot live like this for ever. They will have to come to an accommodation with the Palestinian people sooner rather than later. Dismissing them as terrorists will not work. The former Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, who had some experience of terrorism, knew this, which was why he sought peace with Egypt and Jordan. A future Israeli government will have to do the same. The present administration never will.


Brian Dermody
Blessington, County Wicklow, Ireland

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Almost exactly a year ago, the Palestinian lawyer and writer Raja Shehadeh wrote that “without peace with the Palestinians, Israel can never live in peace” (14 October 2022). Still desperately true, as the front-page headline on your print edition on Monday – “Violence escalates as death toll surges over 1,000” – makes clear.


Margaret and Robin Derbyshire
Cheltenham, Gloucestershire

Let’s say you sit down to a poker game. You have a good hand but can’t stay in. So you put up the pink slip to your beloved Harley. Your hand is good. His hand is better.

You gambled and lost your bike. You gambled. Nobody forced you to. You did it.

I put it this way because war is a gamble. Israel takes when they are attacked. Not before. They don’t march in and seize territory. They take the territories when they are attacked and win it with blood and determination on the field of battle.

If I lost my Harley in the Pot, and demanded you give it back. Would you consider me a bad loser? If you did give it back and I put it up in the very next pot, and you won again, would you keep it this time? I’m obviously prepared to win. I am not prepared to lose.

That is the problem with the enemies of Israel. They are all prepared to win. They are not prepared to lose. And when they lose they want what they started with back. They are fools. And they deserve to lose everything just like the idiot gambler.

 

[$mith]

You are uninformed. I support killing all the terrorists and their supporters without mercy or regret.
Some of us have lost loved ones to evil in the past and have no sympathy or tolerance for evil.

Who is uninformed?

What do you call someone who takes your house and land by force? I rightly call that person a terrorist. Don't just concentrate on current events, go back to 1948, to the source and the cause of the bloodshed ever since. Did you know that in 1947 94% of Palestinian land was controlled by Arabs and only 6% by Jews. In 1948 Arabs controlled only 22% of land and Jews 78% of land. By 1967 100% of land was controlled by Jews. Convictions should be based on truth.

 

[Lisa558]

These stupid Nazi children actually think that supporting the genocide of Jews makes them virtuous.

There will be peace when Palestinians love their children more than they hate Jews. - Golda Meir

 

[$mith]

Yeah, all those Jewish babies were totally oppressing those Jihadists.

Thanks for explaining why you support beheading them.

You talk about the killing of Jewish babies... have you bothered to find out how many arab babies have been killed by Israelis since 1948? Were those babies oppressing Jewish citizens? Where is your concern & outrage for the arab babies killed, or don't they matter too?

 

[irosie91]

Who is uninformed?

What do you call someone who takes your house and land by force? I rightly call that person a terrorist. Don't just concentrate on current events, go back to 1948, to the source and the cause of the bloodshed ever since. Did you know that in 1947 94% of Palestinian land was controlled by Arabs and only 6% by Jews. In 1948 Arabs controlled only 22% of land and Jews 78% of land. By 1967 100% of land was controlled by Jews. Convictions should be based on truth.

You are a victim of islamo-nazi propaganda In 1947
arabs in the Palestine mandate owned almost NO LAND.
Land ownership in the Levant is by PURCHASE---not by
squatting. It has been so for thousands of Years. In
1947 Jews OWNED 7 % of the land by purchase.
How much land do you OWN. I own very little in the USA--
I bought the little I own. Of course under islamic law--
ALL of the land of the palestine Mandate is MUSLIM LAND---
because the "caliph" UMAR said so Today arabs who owned
Land in 1947 still own it. In arab countries that adhere to
SHARIAH law----jews who lived on lands they BOUGHT----
no longer own it. In fact they have not owned since arab
invaders showed up. Muslims from pakistan and India that
I have known describe ALL of the Indian subcontinent as
MUSLIM LAND---part of the MUGHAL EMPIRE

 

[irosie91]

You talk about the killing of Jewish babies... have you bothered to find out how many arab babies have been killed by Israelis since 1948? Were those babies oppressing Jewish citizens? Where is your concern & outrage for the arab babies killed, or don't they matter too?

You know of cases of Jews crashing into the homes of
arabs and killing their children? Try to define your terms.
Take into consideration FACTS ---like RETURN FIRE IS
ALWAYS LEGAL----if someone initiates fire from a place which
harbors children---that person is responsible for their .
deaths. In USA law it is called FELONY MURDER. If a
child obtains a bomb belt and blows himself up--
THAT is murder---by the people who put that idea into
his head and supplied the belt

 

[Lisa558]

Who is uninformed?

What do you call someone who takes your house and land by force? I rightly call that person a terrorist. Don't just concentrate on current events, go back to 1948, to the source and the cause of the bloodshed ever since. Did you know that in 1947 94% of Palestinian land was controlled by Arabs and only 6% by Jews. In 1948 Arabs controlled only 22% of land and Jews 78% of land. By 1967 100% of land was controlled by Jews. Convictions should be based on truth.

And why do you ignore all the Arabs who have taken the homes and land of Jews? Why do you ignore that there were flourishing Jewish communities in Arab countries and that now the entire region, other than Israel, is practically Judenfree?

 

[$mith]

It is not so Your allegation is entirely fraudulent. Do you know how many people in the world claim to be "palestinians" and where
they are?

Welcome to the discussion irosie91. You either haven't read the article above or haven't been keeping up with events in Israel.

"Netanyahu addressed citizens late on Saturday: a hollow statement with slogans such as “we will win”, “we will strike them”, “we will annihilate terrorism”. He is a man of many slogans. He promises Israel will “take mighty vengeance” and that “the enemy will pay an unprecedented price”, suffering “return fire of a magnitude that the enemy has not known”.

He cut off water and electricity in Gaza and now he's telling Palestinians to leave Northern Gaza before the Israeli troops enter the area. What do you think will happen? Tea & biscuits or a bloodbath?

I do not know how many people in the world claim to be Palestinians or where they are. Do you??? However, this is irrelevant as we are talking about Palestinians in Gaza.

 

[Lisa558]

Welcome to the discussion irosie91. You either haven't read the article above or haven't been keeping up with events in Israel.

"Netanyahu addressed citizens late on Saturday: a hollow statement with slogans such as “we will win”, “we will strike them”, “we will annihilate terrorism”. He is a man of many slogans. He promises Israel will “take mighty vengeance” and that “the enemy will pay an unprecedented price”, suffering “return fire of a magnitude that the enemy has not known”.

He cut off water and electricity in Gaza and now he's telling Palestinians to leave Northern Gaza before the Israeli troops enter the area. What do you think will happen? Tea & biscuits or a bloodbath?

I do not know how many people in the world claim to be Palestinians or where they are. Do you??? However, this is irrelevant as we are talking about Palestinians in Gaza.

I’d rather go without electricity than be burned alive, or set on fire - which is what the Palestinians‘ leaders did to the Jews, including babies sleeping in their crib..

 

[SassyIrishLass]

They'll never be peace in the Middle East.

Just a hard brutal fact

 

[$mith]

You are quite stupid and ignorant.

You support Hamas and their stated goal of killing Jews for being Jews. That is all anybody needs to know about you.

As you cannot debate with civility, I have no interest in anything else you have to say. Take your insults & insinuations somewhere else, PLEASE.

 

[TroglocratsRdumb]

The problem is Islam.
They will never accept a non-profit Muslim country amongst them.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

You talk about the killing of Jewish babies... have you bothered to find out how many arab babies have been killed by Israelis since 1948? Were those babies oppressing Jewish citizens? Where is your concern & outrage for the arab babies killed, or don't they matter too?

When have Jews ever killed Abab babies BY INTENT, little Nazi?

They don't. What happens is that Palestinians use their own children as human shields and see the kids death as a component of their jihad and for propaganda purposes.

They hardly care any more for their own children than they do Jewish.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

As you cannot debate with civility, I have no interest in anything else you have to say. Take your insults & insinuations somewhere else, PLEASE.

Nope.

I will continue to oppose your genocidal Jew hatred.

 

[Lisa558]

They'll never be peace in the Middle East.

Just a hard brutal fact

And that’s the Palestinians’ fault. They’ve rejected offers of land for peace because they don‘t really want peace - they want Israel eliminated.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

As you cannot debate with civility, I have no interest in anything else you have to say. Take your insults & insinuations somewhere else, PLEASE.

ignoring facts I see.

 

[$mith]

you ignore the fact the Palestinians DONT want peace and then blame the Jews for it, that is idiotic.

I have explained in other replies above why one cannot live in peace with an oppressor. Read the article by the Israeli journalist who lists the Palestinians suffering at the hands of the Israeli governments. You will understand.