“Without peace with the Palestinians, Israel can never live in peace”

[RetiredGySgt]

I have explained in other replies above why one cannot live in peace with an oppressor. Read the article by the Israeli journalist who lists the Palestinians suffering at the hands of the Israeli governments. You will understand.

LOL again blaming Jews because Arabs wont talk peace.

 

[whitehall]

Imagine the reaction to an American journalist who said the same thing after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor? He would be laughed out of town or incarcerated by the FDR administration. Peace is a fantasy after Jews were slaughtered by Hamas invaders.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

I have explained in other replies above why one cannot live in peace with an oppressor. Read the article by the Israeli journalist who lists the Palestinians suffering at the hands of the Israeli governments. You will understand.

You have not explained how the babies your people butchered were oppressing you.

There isn't a single Jew left in Gaza. Israel provides Gaza with free electricity. The only Items Israel prevents from being imported are weapons used to kill them.

You aren't being "oppressed", especially by Jewish babies, little Nazi.

 

[SassyIrishLass]

Imagine the reaction to an American journalist who said the same thing after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor? He would be laughed out of town or incarcerated by the FDR administration. Peace is a fantasy after Jews were slaughtered by Hamas invaders.

The left knows it... it's why they start these stupid threads

 

[lg325]

This book may help those who have trouble understanding the situation going on now in the middle east.

 

[Mac-7]

Without JUSTICE for the Palestinians, there can never be PEACE with Israel. For decades, Israeli governments have chosen oppression. One does not live peacefully with an oppressor!

74 years ago arabs rejected the UN compromise peace plan when all the bloodshed since then could have been avoided

 

[irosie91]

Welcome to the discussion irosie91. You either haven't read the article above or haven't been keeping up with events in Israel.

"Netanyahu addressed citizens late on Saturday: a hollow statement with slogans such as “we will win”, “we will strike them”, “we will annihilate terrorism”. He is a man of many slogans. He promises Israel will “take mighty vengeance” and that “the enemy will pay an unprecedented price”, suffering “return fire of a magnitude that the enemy has not known”.

He cut off water and electricity in Gaza and now he's telling Palestinians to leave Northern Gaza before the Israeli troops enter the area. What do you think will happen? Tea & biscuits or a bloodbath?

I do not know how many people in the world claim to be Palestinians or where they are. Do you??? However, this is irrelevant as we are talking about Palestinians in Gaza.

thanks for your response (such as it is) You say absolutely nothing
in your first paragraph----just repeat selected lines from Netanyahu's address to his nation. Second paragraph--he WARNS the people of Gaza that WAR IS GOING TO HAPPEN--time to leave-----He did not plan a surprise massacre as did your
HAMAS.
There are people who are in the "category" hereditary Palestinian
in MOST of the countries of the Levant---including Israel. Millions. In fact there are "palestinians" in the USA----ever talk to any? I certainly have. I have been keeping up with events in Israel for the past 60 years. You say nothing and know nothing

 

[$mith]

Let’s say you sit down to a poker game. You have a good hand but can’t stay in. So you put up the pink slip to your beloved Harley. Your hand is good. His hand is better.

You gambled and lost your bike. You gambled. Nobody forced you to. You did it.

I put it this way because war is a gamble. Israel takes when they are attacked. Not before. They don’t march in and seize territory. They take the territories when they are attacked and win it with blood and determination on the field of battle.

If I lost my Harley in the Pot, and demanded you give it back. Would you consider me a bad loser? If you did give it back and I put it up in the very next pot, and you won again, would you keep it this time? I’m obviously prepared to win. I am not prepared to lose.

That is the problem with the enemies of Israel. They are all prepared to win. They are not prepared to lose. And when they lose they want what they started with back. They are fools. And they deserve to lose everything just like the idiot gambler.

Am sorry, but the poker analogy sucks.

The Palestinians had no hand in the partition of Palestine. It was decided by foreign nations far, far away. Naturally, they rejected the UN decision to give up half their land. Both you and I would react in the same way - and anyone that says otherwise is lying. In 1948 thousands of Palestinians were displaced and became refugees overnight. To date, they have never been compensated for their loss and continue to live in neighbouring countries, forbidden from ever returning to their homeland.

 

[Lisa558]

LOL again blaming Jews because Arabs wont talk peace.

And…..he blames Jews after Arabs hunted them down and tortured them to death.

 

[Lisa558]

Am sorry, but the poker analogy sucks.

The Palestinians had no hand in the partition of Palestine. It was decided by foreign nations far, far away. Naturally, they rejected the UN decision to give up half their land. Both you and I would react in the same way - and anyone that says otherwise is lying. In 1948 thousands of Palestinians were displaced and became refugees overnight. To date, they have never been compensated for their loss and continue to live in neighbouring countries, forbidden from ever returning to their homeland.

Many Arabs WERE compensated. Overcompensated, in fact.

OTOH, no Jew has ever received a cent for being driven out of their homes and forced to turn their property over to Muslims.

Your double standards are an obvious show of your antisemitism.

 

[SavannahMann]

Am sorry, but the poker analogy sucks.

The Palestinians had no hand in the partition of Palestine. It was decided by foreign nations far, far away. Naturally, they rejected the UN decision to give up half their land. Both you and I would react in the same way - and anyone that says otherwise is lying. In 1948 thousands of Palestinians were displaced and became refugees overnight. To date, they have never been compensated for their loss and continue to live in neighbouring countries, forbidden from ever returning to their homeland.

The Palestinians withdrew to get out of the way of the forces of retribution. They believed they could come in after the Jews were annihilated and get everything back. I read the histories too.

When Egypt, Syria, and Jordan were defeated in that war, the Palestinians demanded action to get rid of the Jews. So a few years go by and agains Israel is attacked. This goes on decade after decade for a while. And Israel always emerges stronger and larger.

In the meantime the Palestinians have decided that the other nations won’t do it. So they start carrying bombs in to destroy the hated Jew.

It’s hard to claim you are peaceful when a month without rockets from your areas is practically unheard of.

It would be as if you and I were neighbors and I kept shooting in your general direction.

 

[Arlette]

Israel doesn't want peace. They want the land

 

[Grumblenuts]

The Punishment of Gaza

Listen now (76 mins) | Ralph welcomes Haaretz columnist Gideon Levy to discuss recent attacks by Hamas and the Israeli military in Israel and Palestine. Then, international law expert Bruce Fein speaks with Ralph about the recent violence, America's response, and America's historical culpability.

www.ralphnaderradiohour.com

 

[Independentthinker]

I urge fellow members to make the effort to read the entire deeply emotive & eloquent article below written by an Israeli journalist. Amid terror, bloodshed, destruction and total chaos, one should still try to hold on to their humanity.

In our civilised world, revenge is not justice!

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Excerpts:

“We feel fear, anger and helplessness: all of Israel is in a state of war. But revenge is not the answer”. By Orly Noy, Israeli journalist and editor at the Hebrew-language news magazine Local Call.

We feel fear, anger and helplessness: all of Israel is in a state of war. But revenge is not the answer | Orly Noy

We are in shock as we digest the Hamas attacks and the failings of Netanyahu’s government. The worry now is what comes next.

It is still impossible to digest these darker-than-dark days that began with sirens jolting us awake on Saturday morning, a day that seems endless and probably won’t end for many days to come. The thought of the abductees in the Gaza Strip is crumpling me down with pain. Every thought of them leaves a layer of terror on the skin. The images and reports of bodies strewn in every corner, of families held hostage for hours as human shields in their own homes by Hamas militants, still haunt the mind, freezing the heart.

The absolute shock caused by Hamas’s attack on southern towns has taken various forms as the hours pass: fear, helplessness, anger, and above all, a deep sense of chaos. The colossal failures of Benjamin Netanyahu’s government and the security apparatus are converging into a sense of total breakdown. The intelligence system, which surveils every aspect of Palestinians’ lives in Gaza and the West Bank, had no prior knowledge of the attack; civilians were left defenceless for many hours against Hamas militants, who trapped them in their homes and slaughtered them without military intervention – the same military tasked with protecting every settler in the West Bank at any given moment.

Amid this absolute chaos, Netanyahu addressed citizens late on Saturday: a hollow statement with slogans such as “we will win”, “we will strike them”, “we will annihilate terrorism”. He is a man of many slogans. He promises Israel will “take mighty vengeance” and that “the enemy will pay an unprecedented price”, suffering “return fire of a magnitude that the enemy has not known”.

That language is deliberate. For while a traumatised Israeli public is not yet ready to seek the deep political and moral reckoning this catastrophe demands, the anger already directed towards Netanyahu is palpable. A prime minister entangled in legal proceedings appointed, to suit his own political needs, people who were not only extremely hawkish but also highly unprofessional – and put them in charge of our security. Rightfully he is now seen as personally responsible. He seeks to save his own political skin, once again, by urging the Knesset to establish a national emergency government, much like the one he formed three years ago with the leader of the National Unity party, Benny Gantz, under the pretext of a coronavirus response. But even without that national emergency government being formed, the Jewish opposition in the Knesset fully supports the government’s deadly attack on Gaza. And they are not alone: many Israelis want to see the entire Gaza Strip pay an unprecedented price.

The public desire for revenge is both understandable and terrifying, but the erasure of any moral red line is always a frightening thing.

It is important not to minimise or condone the heinous crimes committed by Hamas. But it is also important to remind ourselves that everything it is inflicting on us now, we have been inflicting on the Palestinians for years. Indiscriminate firing, including at children and older people; intrusion into their homes; burning down their houses; taking hostages – not just fighters but civilians, children and older people. I keep reminding myself that ignoring this context is giving up a piece of my own humanity. Because violence devoid of any context leads to only one possible response: revenge. And I don’t want revenge from anyone. Because revenge is the opposite of security, it is the opposite of peace, it is also the opposite of justice. It is nothing but more violence.

I maintain that there are crimes of abundance and there are crimes of hunger, and we have not only brought Gaza to the brink of starvation, we have brought it to a state of collapse. Always in the name of security. How much security did we get? Where will another round of revenge take us?

Terrible crimes were committed against Israelis this Saturday, crimes that the mind cannot fathom – and in this time of dark grief, I cling to the one thing I have left to hold on to: my humanity. The absolute belief that this hell is not predestined. Not for us, nor for them.

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Replies to the above article:

Thank you, Orly Noy, for capturing the horror, terror and desolate grief with a fair accountability of how such a heinous attack comes into being (We feel fear, anger and helplessness: all of Israel is in a state of war. But revenge is not the answer, 9 October). Two days before the horrific attack by Hamas, I finished reading the anthology Light in Gaza, by Palestinians writing about their lives under 16 years of Israel’s blockade. It is profound, inspiring, heart-wrenching, and powerfully important to help understand how hate is perpetuated by ongoing oppression and persecution, which feeds the violence of Hamas.

The attacks by Hamas are horrific and so are the retaliation strikes and blockade of food and water and medical supplies for more than 2 million people.

Had we acknowledged that we built modern Israel on stolen land and that 750,000 Palestinians were expelled or fled; had we made some effort at reparations; had we treated Palestinians with the same rights as we treat Israeli Jews; had there been one law for all people, as taught by Leviticus 24:22, it is much more likely that so much of this violence could have been prevented.

But a justice system that allows ongoing theft and violence against a people can only lead to deepening rage and violence. May we learn from these attacks and fight against all injustice and violence. May we grieve all of the deaths, wounding and horrific oppression.


Harriet Cooke-Cohen
Portland, Oregon, US

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It is with horror and deep sorrow that I read about the latest violence in Israel and Palestine. I feel so sad for all those people, Palestinian and Israeli, who have been working with all they have towards finding a just and lasting peace. Fighting and violence, whether it’s Hamas or the Israeli military, is the same: violence and disaster for civilians and for humanity. The only answer is to dissolve violence, aggression, guns and walls, and accept that what you sow, you reap.

If security is required, a true feeling of safety will need to be fostered for all occupants and generations in Israel and Palestine. How much money has the US given to Israel for weapons and military security? These funds need to go towards reconciliation, towards working for a genuine lasting peace in Palestine and Israel.


Karen Sillence
Bristol

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There was a phrase used in Northern Ireland during the Troubles – “acceptable level of violence”. The Israeli people have lived like this since the last intifada, or perhaps since 1967. Surely history should have taught them that you cannot live like this for ever. They will have to come to an accommodation with the Palestinian people sooner rather than later. Dismissing them as terrorists will not work. The former Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, who had some experience of terrorism, knew this, which was why he sought peace with Egypt and Jordan. A future Israeli government will have to do the same. The present administration never will.


Brian Dermody
Blessington, County Wicklow, Ireland

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Almost exactly a year ago, the Palestinian lawyer and writer Raja Shehadeh wrote that “without peace with the Palestinians, Israel can never live in peace” (14 October 2022). Still desperately true, as the front-page headline on your print edition on Monday – “Violence escalates as death toll surges over 1,000” – makes clear.


Margaret and Robin Derbyshire
Cheltenham, Gloucestershire

How can you make peace with people who claim you have no right to exist?

 

[lennypartiv]

That is the problem with the enemies of Israel. They are all prepared to win. They are not prepared to lose. And when they lose they want what they started with back. They are fools. And they deserve to lose everything just like the idiot gambler.

Very true. But they don't give up. With all the oil money in the middle east, sooner or later Hamas or Hezbollah is going to get their hands on bigger and better missiles. Contemplate what that means for the people living in Israel.

 

[SavannahMann]

Very true. But they don't give up. With all the oil money in the middle east, sooner or later Hamas or Hezbollah is going to get their hands on bigger and better missiles. Contemplate what that means for the people living in Israel.

The same thing that it meant in as Israel declared statehood and fought with hunting rifles and old Nazi planes they had smuggled in against well equipped armies.

The same thing it meant at the Golan Heights when a small company of obsolete Tanks held off a full brigade of modern Soviet Tanks.

The same thing it always means. Israel can’t ever forget they are literally surrounded by enemies.

And if they are ever on the verge of defeat. They’ll use all the nukes they have to insure the enemies never forget the cost that the Israelis extracted.

 

[Lisa558]

The same thing that it meant in as Israel declared statehood and fought with hunting rifles and old Nazi planes they had smuggled in against well equipped armies.

The same thing it meant at the Golan Heights when a small company of obsolete Tanks held off a full brigade of modern Soviet Tanks.

The same thing it always means. Israel can’t ever forget they are literally surrounded by enemies.

And if they are ever on the verge of defeat. They’ll use all the nukes they have to insure the enemies never forget the cost that the Israelis extracted.

My concern is that the Democrats, in an effort to appease the Muslims, will pressure Israel to ease off their goal to eliminate HAMAS.

 

[ozro]

As you cannot debate with civility, I have no interest in anything else you have to say. Take your insults & insinuations somewhere else, PLEASE.

You come into this forum and start a thread based on hate speech and accuse anyone else of incivility? Fuck you. A horrible slow death for you AND your family, and their families, and friends and their friends.
Fuck off and die Nazi. Off to ignore for you.
Someone talking like you won't survive meeting me in person -fact.

 

[Lisa558]

You come into this forum and start a thread based on hate speech and accuse anyone else of incivility? Fuck you. A horrible slow death for you AND your family, and their families, and friends and their friends.
Fuck off and die Nazi. Off to ignore for you.
Someone talking like you won't survive meeting me in person -fact.

The Nazis are the Muslim terrorists.

 

[SavannahMann]

My concern is that the Democrats, in an effort to appease the Muslims, will pressure Israel to ease off their goal to eliminate HAMAS.

I don’t think that the soft words will take effect in time. Also many of the Democrats are sympathetic with Israel.

That’s the real issue here. The idea that all the Democrats are siding with the Muslims. Sure some are. And just like that some Republicans are opposing Israel.