Withheld satellite internet service to Kyiv to thwart attack on Russia navy fleet: Elon Musk

[Mushroom]

did the Ukranians get White House and Brussel's and the UK's approval to take out that naval fleet?

Did they need to?

The war is between Russia and Ukraine. Why in the hell should they get the permission of anybody? Did Russia get their permission before invading them?

Sorry, that is one of the stupidest comments I have read in this thread.

 

[Mushroom]

news-flash : that Russian naval base in Crimea? has been there for > 100 years now.
the Ukranians TOOK "their" land from the USSR after that fell.

News Flash: Russia gave it to them in exchange for the rights to lease the base there. It was all very clearly laid out in the Russian-Ukrainian Friendship Treaty of 1997. And Ukraine was happy to lease it to them, until Russia invaded them in 2014.

Guess what, Hong Kong was ruled by the UK for 99 years, until the lease expired. At that point it returned to China.

The Ottoman Empire ruled the Middle East for a thousand years. Does that mean that every nation in the area must give up their sovereignty if they want it all back?

Ukraine "took" nothing. And if that was true, why did Russia never once bring that up to the UN?

That is a big thing I look at during these multiple International Conflicts. Was it an issue that was brought up before the UN and other International Mediation Bodies? Or was it largely not real and only a casus belli? Now the Falklands-Malvinas, that had actually been brought up to the UN and other organizations for over a century. But then others like the Invasion of Kuwait, it was only a casus belli and not a real issue other than one nation wanted to annex another nation.

By your very definition, everything East of Poland should instantly become Russia again. Good luck selling Finland, Belarus, and a half dozen other countries on that idea.

 

[frigidweirdo]

news-flash : that Russian naval base in Crimea? has been there for > 100 years now.
the Ukranians TOOK "their" land from the USSR after that fell.
i really can't blame the Russians for making a fuss over that.

control of the Black Sea, that is channeled to in Turkey from the Meditteranean Sea, is at stake.
hell, i'd get very nervous and angry if they try to take control of our territorial waters in the North Sea from my country (Netherlands).
control the sea to put the shores and inlands at your mercy.

but at the same time, the other side of the coin, is the right to self-determination.
we here in NATO managed to sell our worldviews to the East-Europeans en-masse, they elected pro-western leaders over there, and those leaders then played a solid game of territorial greed.
but not always in the favor of the locals, to say the least.

Wow, someone just made up History.

Stalin put the Crimea in the Ukraine.

Transfer of Crimea in the Soviet Union - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"The transfer of the Crimean oblast in the Soviet Union in 1954 was an administrative action of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet that transferred the government of Crimea from the Russian SFSR to the Ukrainian SSR."

 

[MisterBeale]

A direct quote, and you say it is "not primary". Well, I guess if I looked I could find the original in Russian, not sure how much good that would actually do.

Please do, I can't tell you how many times, even sources like WaPo & the NYT have deliberately taken things out of context.

If CNN was reporting with integrity, like many of the independent sources I use? They would have just embedded the Telegram post in their media, I see no reason not to. That they didn't? Is highly suspect.

Nobody can read them unless they are paying subscribers, so using such a link to validate your claim is a failure.

I included the Japan Times link, as it is a reprint of the Bloomberg source, you have no excuse.

All the other links you can read.

I only deal in reality.

Well, here is the reality. The US and NATO changed their stance on first use of tactical nukes, before Russia did, and then, Russia subsequently re-positioned its nukes. OBVIOUSLY, because they knew what was coming. Just proved it!

The statistical and empirical reality is? The west is going to lose, unless it deploys some seriously nasty tactics. . .

Why Russia Isn't Actually Collapsing​

Aug 26, 2023


Sorry you have to be so salty about all this. Do you want to launch more nasty names and attacks on me, to cope with your terrible reality?

Now NATO and the US has gotten themselves into a conflict that it is losing, and most intelligent folks can see the writing on the wall. . .

It's time to admit you either don't know what you are talking about, or. . you're wrong. Those are your two choices left.

 

[MisterBeale]

Wow, someone just made up History.

Stalin put the Crimea in the Ukraine.

Transfer of Crimea in the Soviet Union - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"The transfer of the Crimean oblast in the Soviet Union in 1954 was an administrative action of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet that transferred the government of Crimea from the Russian SFSR to the Ukrainian SSR."

IT goes back a little further than that. . .

The American Constitution was signed in 1787.

Annexation of the Crimean Khanate by the Russian Empire - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"The territory of Crimea, previously controlled by the Crimean Khanate, was annexed by the Russian Empire on 19 April [O.S. 8 April] 1783.[1] The period before the annexation was marked by Russian interference in Crimean affairs, a series of revolts by Crimean Tatars, and Ottoman ambivalence. The annexation began 134 years of rule by the Russian Empire, which was ended by the revolution of 1917.. . . "

. . . so? The Russian sphere of influence over Crimea? Is older than our own government, and we have the gall to meddle.

Hell, they founded the third largest city in Ukraine.

Odesa - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This shit? Is none of our business, anymore than if we decide to eliminate the cartels south of the border with our military or intelligence agencies, if the Chinese or Russians start funding & equipping them for profit and to weaken us, it would be an affront to every American. . .

None of you have your heads screwed on straight.

 

[Mushroom]

"The territory of Crimea, previously controlled by the Crimean Khanate, was annexed by the Russian Empire on 19 April [O.S. 8 April] 1783.[1] The period before the annexation was marked by Russian interference in Crimean affairs, a series of revolts by Crimean Tatars, and Ottoman ambivalence. The annexation began 134 years of rule by the Russian Empire, which was ended by the revolution of 1917.. . . "

And was changed since then, by Russia itself and the Soviet Union.

The Mongols once used to rule over Russia. Maybe by your logic we should support them taking over Russia again. After all, they ruled there even before the Rus moved into the area.

I find it hilarious that you are ignoring over a thousand years of history, and concentrating on one single time over 200 years ago, and even ignoring things that have happened after that time.

 

[MisterBeale]

I find it hilarious that you are ignoring over a thousand years of history, and concentrating on one single time over 200 years ago, and even ignoring things that have happened after that time.

I'm just saying, that for the past 200 years, Russia has had influence over that region, and now, the west wants to kick Russia out of its navel port at Sevastopol.

It isn't going to happen. The Ukes have never held that city, it isn't theirs, it is Russian. It is like trying to gaslight the world and claim that Deer Point Camp at Gitmo, was somehow ever Cuban. ..

It has never been. Neither has Sevastopol. Stop trying to twist reality.

The US would have a nuke war before we would give it up, and so will Russia.

1783: The Founding of Sevastopol

 

[peacefan]

L. Ron Musk is a populist who sticks his finger into the air to see where the winds are blowing at any given time. Most of his claims are nonsense and most of his projects are failures.

It was not all that long ago he was screaming how awesome Starlink was, and how he was increasing launches in order to provide services to Ukraine. Of course, he was charging them a premium for the service, but he did do that. And now he admits he was making decisions to cut it off because he wanted to.

Guess what that is going to mean to anybody else that is using his service, or has considered using it? A hard and fast backpedal, as no nation wants a megalomaniacal businessman making decisions that can affect their country. If I was any government or business that had been using Starlink, at this time I would be trying to find almost anybody else to provide those services.

In the military we have a phrase, and that is "stay in your lane". As a service provider, it is not your job to try and control how that service is used. Especially based on your own beliefs. L. Ron needs to realize he set himself up as a service provider, and it is not his role or right to dictate how those services are used so long as it is done legally and is not in violation of the EULA.

EULAs can change.

and Musk, once again, has no right to play the statesman and enable acts of war.
HE IS NOT AN ELECTED OFFICIAL.

 

[peacefan]

Did they need to?

The war is between Russia and Ukraine. Why in the hell should they get the permission of anybody? Did Russia get their permission before invading them?

Sorry, that is one of the stupidest comments I have read in this thread.

we can only hope to control the actions of ourselves and those of our allies.

 

[peacefan]

News Flash: Russia gave it to them in exchange for the rights to lease the base there. It was all very clearly laid out in the Russian-Ukrainian Friendship Treaty of 1997. And Ukraine was happy to lease it to them, until Russia invaded them in 2014.

Guess what, Hong Kong was ruled by the UK for 99 years, until the lease expired. At that point it returned to China.

The Ottoman Empire ruled the Middle East for a thousand years. Does that mean that every nation in the area must give up their sovereignty if they want it all back?

Ukraine "took" nothing. And if that was true, why did Russia never once bring that up to the UN?

That is a big thing I look at during these multiple International Conflicts. Was it an issue that was brought up before the UN and other International Mediation Bodies? Or was it largely not real and only a casus belli? Now the Falklands-Malvinas, that had actually been brought up to the UN and other organizations for over a century. But then others like the Invasion of Kuwait, it was only a casus belli and not a real issue other than one nation wanted to annex another nation.

By your very definition, everything East of Poland should instantly become Russia again. Good luck selling Finland, Belarus, and a half dozen other countries on that idea.

do you know why the Russians invaded Ukraine in 2014? i don't, you see.

 

[peacefan]

Wow, someone just made up History.

Stalin put the Crimea in the Ukraine.

Transfer of Crimea in the Soviet Union - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"The transfer of the Crimean oblast in the Soviet Union in 1954 was an administrative action of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet that transferred the government of Crimea from the Russian SFSR to the Ukrainian SSR."

fine, Stalin handed Crimea to Ukraine.

that doesn't mean modern day Russians want to let control over the Black Sea slip from their fingers.

but why are we tip-toeing around? we should authorize the obliteration of that naval fleet to take away Putin's motivation to stay in the war.
Putin and co won't go nuclear over it, that's a bluff.

 

[MisterBeale]

but why are we tip-toeing around? we should authorize the obliteration of that naval fleet to take away Putin's motivation to stay in the war.
Putin and co won't go nuclear over it, that's a bluff.

What did we do when the Japanese bombed pearl harbor?

 

[frigidweirdo]

IT goes back a little further than that. . .

The American Constitution was signed in 1787.

Annexation of the Crimean Khanate by the Russian Empire - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"The territory of Crimea, previously controlled by the Crimean Khanate, was annexed by the Russian Empire on 19 April [O.S. 8 April] 1783.[1] The period before the annexation was marked by Russian interference in Crimean affairs, a series of revolts by Crimean Tatars, and Ottoman ambivalence. The annexation began 134 years of rule by the Russian Empire, which was ended by the revolution of 1917.. . . "

. . . so? The Russian sphere of influence over Crimea? Is older than our own government, and we have the gall to meddle.

Hell, they founded the third largest city in Ukraine.

View attachment 828083

Odesa - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This shit? Is none of our business, anymore than if we decide to eliminate the cartels south of the border with our military or intelligence agencies, if the Chinese or Russians start funding & equipping them for profit and to weaken us, it would be an affront to every American. . .

None of you have your heads screwed on straight.

The thing is, you might say it's not your business, but if it's no one's business but Ukraine's and Russia's, then Russia will take over half the world. Along with China. You want that? You want the Chinese doing to the US what the US does to Iran and Venezuela and Iraq and Afghanistan?

 

[MisterBeale]

then Russia will take over half the world. Along with China. You want that?

Slippery slope - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Just because the Russians are defending ethnic Russians and their national interests, from a land grab and political subversion from the west? There is absolutely no reason, to posit that they will go on a rampage and take over the whole world. Neither will the Chinese.

I could be convinced that the Chinese may want Taiwan, as those are Chinese people who speak Chinese, and whose culture is Chinese. ..

Taiwan - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

. . . but trying to rule people whose culture, language and traditions are radically different than yours? Is cripplingly unproductive.

This is the 21st century, enlightened leaders, don't have the time, or desire for totalitarian imperial empire anymore. Get real.

 

[frigidweirdo]

fine, Stalin handed Crimea to Ukraine.

that doesn't mean modern day Russians want to let control over the Black Sea slip from their fingers.

but why are we tip-toeing around? we should authorize the obliteration of that naval fleet to take away Putin's motivation to stay in the war.
Putin and co won't go nuclear over it, that's a bluff.

Fine, the UK doesn't want the US to slip from their fingers... justification for war?

Anyone can justify a war, look at Argentina "las Malvinas son nuestros" even though Argentina had NEVER, EVER controlled the Falkland Islands EVER before that war.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Slippery slope - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Just because the Russians are defending ethnic Russians and their national interests, from a land grab and political subversion from the west? There is absolutely no reason, to posit that they will go on a rampage and take over the whole world. Neither will the Chinese.

I could be convinced that the Chinese may want Taiwan, as those are Chinese people who speak Chinese, and whose culture is Chinese. ..
View attachment 828161

Taiwan - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

. . . but trying to rule people whose culture, language and traditions are radically different than yours? Is cripplingly unproductive.

This is the 21st century, enlightened leaders, don't have the time, or desire for totalitarian imperial empire anymore. Get real.

Exactly what Hitler did...

Is Putin saving the lives of the Slavs? No, he's killing them. On both sides.

 

[MisterBeale]

Exactly what Hitler did...

The comparison is nothing at all similar.

I do not remember a German naval base that was in Poland, or Belgium, or Denmark, that the French or English, then staged a coup, and caused that government to try to strip control of the navel base/city, away from the Germans. . .

You make up really weird shit.

Is Putin saving the lives of the Slavs? No, he's killing them. On both sides.

What do you suppose would happen if we just stopped giving aid to Ukraine? What would happen if NATO & the US just didn't meddle any more?

 

[frigidweirdo]

The comparison is nothing at all similar.

I do not remember a German naval base that was in Poland, or Belgium, or Denmark, that the French or English, then staged a coup, and caused that government to try to strip control of the navel base/city, away from the Germans. . .

You make up really weird shit.


What do you suppose would happen if we just stopped giving aid to Ukraine? What would happen if NATO & the US just didn't meddle any more?

The comparison is exactly that.

Using the "Protection of people in other countries" as a justification for war.

Hitler was a Germanic nationalist. It wasn't about German people, it was about Germanic people. It helped him to justify invading the Czechs, annexing Austria and the like.


You don't remember a naval base in Poland. Oh, well.. I suppose naval bases are people these days.

What would happen to NATO? Probably what would happen is this.

Putin would take the Ukraine.

The Ukraine was the 5th largest grain exporter in the world, behind the Russia, Australia, the US and Canada.

Instead of Russia being number one by 2 million tonnes, it'd put them ahead by 21 million tonnes. That's the amount 4th placed Canada produces. That would give Russia a lot more power. Food security is something essential in this changing world.

Infographic: Russia, Ukraine and the global wheat supply

More than a quarter of the world’s wheat exports come from Russia and Ukraine.

www.aljazeera.com

"In 2019, Russia and Ukraine together exported more than a quarter (25.4 percent) of the world’s wheat, according to the Observatory of Economic Complexity (OEC)."

Imagine, in 2011 the Arab Spring started.

Exports of cereals from Russia 2022/2023 | Statista

Russia was forecast to export 53.3 million metric tons of cereals in crop year 2022/2023.

www.statista.com

Russia sold 4.5 million tons of cereals. That was down from 21 million tons the year before. 1/4 of what they exported. Why? Because Russia didn't have enough cereals to sell because the crops weren't good that year. Same for the Ukraine.

The result. Three governments overthrown in the Arab world, Tunisia, Egypt and Yemen. Egypt was an ally of the US, and since then hasn't been.

With Russia controlling 25% of wheat exports, they can do a lot. Australia, the US and Canada have a larger portion of that. If global warming continues in the way it has, I'd expect Australia to suffer first.

Say for example, the US and Canada suffer and 1930s style drought that reduces the ability to produce enough for export. Then everyone's relying on Russia and the Ukraine and Australia. That's going to put Russia in a huge advantage.

Beyond that, you have the treat to other countries. Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaijan are under threat. Georgia because Russia hates Georgia, it's already made Georgia lose territory. Azerbaijan has loads of oils.

Then you have the -stan countries that were part of the USSR.

Then you have Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, part of the USSR, now part of NATO and EU.

If Russia goes for that, then there's war.

So, either the US tries to stop Russia now, or it waits and waits and it gets worse as Russia gets more and more powerful.

Also China is getting more and more powerful. The threat to Japan and South Korea after Taiwan has been invaded. If the US loses those allies, then what?

 

[Mushroom]

Anyone can justify a war, look at Argentina "las Malvinas son nuestros" even though Argentina had NEVER, EVER controlled the Falkland Islands EVER before that war.

Ahh, actually they did.

The British actually had claim on Saunders Island from 1766 to 1774 when the British abandoned their claim and turned it over to Spain. And the ownership of the islands was held by Spain

That was before the British invaded them. They invaded Argentina twice, first in 1806, where they were kicked out. Then again in 1807 where they were kicked out again. And after failing two invasions Britain again abandoned their claim on the islands. And in 1818 when Argentina became an independent nation it retained ownership of the islands from Spain. Remember, England surrendered the islands to Spain back in 1774. Then 14 years later Britain invaded once again and took the islands in 1832.

So claiming that Argentina never controlled them is an outright lie.

 

[peacefan]

What did we do when the Japanese bombed pearl harbor?

except that the Russians can't mount that kind of counter offensive.