Will America Go Communist?

[bripat9643]

GDP is a perfect example. While it is the best measurement we have, it is still fundamentally flawed. The calculation for GDP is "consumption + government spending + investment + net exports"

You'll notice that government spending, is calculated into GDP. This means that the government spending money.... just spending money.... results in higher GDP.

I agree GDP is fundamentally flawed as a measure of economic health:

Why GDP fails as a measure of well-being

"The textbooks generally point out five problems with using GDP as a measure of well-being:

• GDP counts 'bads' as well as 'goods.' When an earthquake hits and requires rebuilding, GDP increases. When someone gets sick and money is spent on their care, it's counted as part of GDP. But nobody would argue that we're better off because of a destructive earthquake or people getting sick.
• GDP makes no adjustment for leisure time. Imagine two economies with identical standards of living, but in one economy the workday averages 12 hours, while in the other it's only eight. Which country would you rather live in?
• GDP only counts goods that pass through official, organized markets, so it misses home production and black market activity. This is a big omission, particularly in developing countries where much of what's consumed is produced at home (or obtained through barter). This also means if people begin hiring others to clean their homes instead of doing it themselves, or if they go out to dinner instead of cooking at home, GDP will appear to grow even though the total amount produced hasn't changed.
• • GDP doesn't adjust for the distribution of goods. Again, imagine two economies, but this time one has a ruler who gets 90 percent of what's produced, and everyone else subsists -- barely -- on what's left over. In the second, the distribution is considerably more equitable. In both cases, GDP per capita will be the same, but it's clear which economy I'd rather live in.
  • 
    
  • "GDP isn't adjusted for pollution costs. If two economies have the same GDP per capita, but one has polluted air and water while the other doesn't, well-being will be different but GDP per capita won't capture it.

How does socialism do better with any of these issues?

 

[bripat9643]

Quantitative easing is private industry literally walking into our (read-tax dollars) treasury, and walking off with whatever they wish

why? , because we have a failing economy, failing fiat system

Do you believe it's true a government that issues its own money can pay for goods and service and financial assets without collecting money in the form of taxes OR DEBT ISSUANCE in advance of such purchases?

Modern Monetary Theory - Wikipedia

Dumb.

Dumb.

Point out the flaws.

Modern Monetary Theory - Wikipedia

"Modern Monetary Theory or Modern Money Theory (MMT) is a heterodox macroeconomic theory that describes currency as a public monopoly for the government and unemployment as evidence that a currency monopolist is overly restricting the supply of the financial assets needed to pay taxes and satisfy savings desire."

That has to be the dumbest theory ever posted in this forum.

 

[georgephillip]

How does socialism do better with any of these issues?

Socialism would eliminate the exploitation of workers that capitalists grow rich on; thereby producing markets that distribute scarce goods and services based on need instead of ability to pay.

Analysis | 10 Things You Should Know About Socialism

"In Capital, Volume 1, Karl Marx defined a fundamental injustice—exploitation—located in capitalism’s core relationship between employer and employee. Exploitation, in Marx’s terms, describes the situation in which employees produce more value for employers than the value of wages paid to them.

"Capitalist exploitation shapes everything in capitalist societies.

"Yearning for a better society, socialists increasingly demand the end of exploitation and an alternative in which employees function as their own employer.

"Socialists want to be able to explore and develop their full potentials as individuals and members of society while contributing to its welfare and growth."

 

[georgephillip]

That has to be the dumbest theory ever posted in this forum.

What's "dumb" about any of this?

Modern Monetary Theory - Wikipedia

"MMT's main tenets are that a government that issues its own money:

1. "Can pay for goods, services, and financial assets without a need to collect money in the form of taxes or debt issuance in advance of such purchases;
2. Cannot be forced to default on debt denominated in its own currency;
3. Is only limited in its money creation and purchases by inflation, which accelerates once the real resources (labor, capital and natural resources) of the economy are utilized at full employment;"

 

[Thunderbird]

How does socialism do better with any of these issues?

Socialism would eliminate the exploitation of workers that capitalists grow rich on; thereby producing markets that distribute scarce goods and services based on need instead of ability to pay.

Analysis | 10 Things You Should Know About Socialism

"In Capital, Volume 1, Karl Marx defined a fundamental injustice—exploitation—located in capitalism’s core relationship between employer and employee. Exploitation, in Marx’s terms, describes the situation in which employees produce more value for employers than the value of wages paid to them.

"Capitalist exploitation shapes everything in capitalist societies.

"Yearning for a better society, socialists increasingly demand the end of exploitation and an alternative in which employees function as their own employer.

"Socialists want to be able to explore and develop their full potentials as individuals and members of society while contributing to its welfare and growth."

Marxist-Leninists create dictatorships supposedly to end exploitation, but in the end deliver the worst exploitation: tyranny, famine, and gulags.

Are there still people stupid enough to fall for this con?

The Black Book of Communism

Towards the end of poverty

Opinion | Mao's Great Leap to Famine

 

[Thunderbird]

How does socialism do better with any of these issues?

Socialism would eliminate the exploitation of workers that capitalists grow rich on; thereby producing markets that distribute scarce goods and services based on need instead of ability to pay.

Analysis | 10 Things You Should Know About Socialism

"In Capital, Volume 1, Karl Marx defined a fundamental injustice—exploitation—located in capitalism’s core relationship between employer and employee. Exploitation, in Marx’s terms, describes the situation in which employees produce more value for employers than the value of wages paid to them.

"Capitalist exploitation shapes everything in capitalist societies.

"Yearning for a better society, socialists increasingly demand the end of exploitation and an alternative in which employees function as their own employer.

"Socialists want to be able to explore and develop their full potentials as individuals and members of society while contributing to its welfare and growth."

Why not move to Zimbabwe, North Korea, or Venezuela? You needn’t worry about capitalist exploitation in those countries.

 

[Andylusion]

The threat is within, but it’s not Democrats. It’s Trump and his cult like followers.

Trump and Putin come from a long line of gangsters. It's not unrealistic to believe the KGB began cultivating Trump decades ago.

We may learn more about any money laundering by June when SCOTUS rules on whether or not Trump can keep his financial history secret.

Trump’s ties to the Russian mafia go back 3 decades

"A lightly edited transcript of our conversation follows.

"Sean Illing
"I’ll ask you straightforwardly: Do you believe the Russian government successfully targeted and compromised Trump?

"Craig Unger
"Yes, absolutely. But let’s go back in time, because I think all of this began as a money-laundering operation with the Russian mafia.

"It’s well known that Trump likes doing business with gangsters, in part because they pay top dollar and loan money when traditional banks won’t, so it was a win-win for both sides.

"The key point I want to get across in the book is that the Russian mafia is different than the American mafia, and I think a lot of Americans don’t understand this.

"In Russia, the mafia is essentially a state actor.

"When I interviewed Gen. Oleg Kalugin, who is a former head of counterintelligence in the KGB and had been Vladimir Putin’s boss at one point, I asked him about the mafia. He said, “Oh, it’s part of the KGB. It’s part of the Russian government.”

"And that’s essential to the whole premise of the book. Trump was working with the Russian mafia for more than 30 years. He was profiting from them.

"They rescued him.

"They bailed him out.

"They took him from being $4 billion in debt to becoming a multibillionaire again, and they fueled his political ambitions, starting more than 30 years ago.

"This means Trump was in bed with the Kremlin as well, whether he knew it or not"

........ right..... Trump a CIA operative, didn't even know it.... As if Putin knew a reality TV could ever win an election.

Back to the conspiracy bin with you, and your tin foil hat people.

 

[Andylusion]

That has to be the dumbest theory ever posted in this forum.

What's "dumb" about any of this?

Modern Monetary Theory - Wikipedia

"MMT's main tenets are that a government that issues its own money:

1. "Can pay for goods, services, and financial assets without a need to collect money in the form of taxes or debt issuance in advance of such purchases;
2. Cannot be forced to default on debt denominated in its own currency;
3. Is only limited in its money creation and purchases by inflation, which accelerates once the real resources (labor, capital and natural resources) of the economy are utilized at full employment;"

Because fiat money, does not have any inherent value, by printing more money, you are devaluing the money.

In short, you are collecting more value from the tax payers by printing money, than you ever do from taxes.

Seriously, the evidence that your monetary theory is a absolute failure, is clearly evident by the fact that so few countries do it.

By the logic of MMT, where governments can just print out tons of money, and buy anything they want, if that actually worked, then every country in the world would be doing it.

Does it not seem odd to you that if your MMT system worked, that governments would still be borrowing money? Why would they do this? Why would any government anywhere in the world borrow so much as a penny, if they can simply print all the money they need?

Every country, would pay off all their debts with printed money, and free up budget spending. In the case of the US, it would free up more than $330 Billion.

In fact, if they could really follow this theory, then why have taxes..... at all?

The fact that virtually no successful country follows MMT, and the few that do have ended in disaster, suggests that MMT..... well, put simply.... is crap.

 

[Andylusion]

How does socialism do better with any of these issues?

Socialism would eliminate the exploitation of workers that capitalists grow rich on; thereby producing markets that distribute scarce goods and services based on need instead of ability to pay.

Analysis | 10 Things You Should Know About Socialism

"In Capital, Volume 1, Karl Marx defined a fundamental injustice—exploitation—located in capitalism’s core relationship between employer and employee. Exploitation, in Marx’s terms, describes the situation in which employees produce more value for employers than the value of wages paid to them.

"Capitalist exploitation shapes everything in capitalist societies.

"Yearning for a better society, socialists increasingly demand the end of exploitation and an alternative in which employees function as their own employer.

"Socialists want to be able to explore and develop their full potentials as individuals and members of society while contributing to its welfare and growth."

Ok, so in Venezuela.... they eliminated the exploitation of workers that the Capitalists grow rich on.

They actually did this.

Why did it not produce any of the results that you claim?

Let me even get more specific.....

In the 2000s, there were at least 4 different auto companies operating in Venezuela. Big companies providing jobs.....errrr I mean exploiting workers... and producing thousands of cars a year. Interestingly one car company was from Iran.

However, by 2017, all the companies, were taken over by the government. One by one, the companies left. Some leaving early like Toyota in 2014, and GM having their factory confiscated.

Today Venezuela produces almost no cars whatsoever. The jobs are gone.... er... I mean the worker exploitation is gone... and now people have no cars.

Well I shouldn't say that no one has cars. Some people can still get cars.

Venezuela car industry slips into idle

"VW finally imported some vehicles late last year but they were all destined for a ministry,'' Louis said. "We have received no cars to sell to the public for years."​

So the rich elite in the socialist government of course, have cars. I'm sure it helps to have the tax money, and oil money of the country at your call....

But back to the question..... why did not the "thereby producing markets that distribute scarce goods and services based on need" actually happen?

And I could ask the same about North Korea, or Cuba? Why has your theory never worked?

 

[georgephillip]

Marxist-Leninists create dictatorships supposedly to end exploitation, but in the end deliver the worst exploitation: tyranny, famine, and gulags.

Analysis | 10 Things You Should Know About Socialism

"Socialism is an economic system very different from capitalism, feudalism, and slavery.

"Each of the latter divided society into a dominant minority class (masters, lords, and employers) and a dominated majority (slaves, serfs, employees).

"When the majority recognized slavery and feudal systems as injustices, they eventually fell."

Capitalism comes from slavery.

In Europe there was a feudal interlude; however, in MAGA-land, capitalism came directly from the enslavement of millions of Africans and the mass murder of millions of Native Americans.

You call that "great."?

 

[georgephillip]

Ok, so in Venezuela.... they eliminated the exploitation of workers that the Capitalists grow rich on.

They actually did this.

How did they do that without nationalizing their banks?

 

[georgephillip]

Why not move to Zimbabwe, North Korea, or Venezuela? You needn’t worry about capitalist exploitation in those countries.

Why not MAGA?

Analysis | 10 Things You Should Know About Socialism

"5. Thank American socialists, communists, and unionists for the 1930s New Deal

"FDR’s government raised the revenue necessary for Washington to fund massive, expensive increases in public services during the Depression of the 1930s.

"These included the Social Security system, the first federal unemployment compensation system, the first federal minimum wage, and a mass federal jobs program.

"FDR’s revenues came from taxing corporations and the rich more than ever before."

 

[Andylusion]

Ok, so in Venezuela.... they eliminated the exploitation of workers that the Capitalists grow rich on.

They actually did this.

How did they do that without nationalizing their banks?

Why would they need to nationalize the bank, when you own the factories, the warehouses, the transportation, and everything else?

Besides, they did.

Venezuela Merges Nationalised Banks to Form New Bicentenary Bank

Happened back in 2009.

So, answer the question? Why didn't it work as you claim?

 

[georgephillip]

....... right..... Trump a CIA operative, didn't even know it.... As if Putin knew a reality TV could ever win an election.

Trump was one among many American oligarchs who was cultivated by Soviet and Russian elites in hopes of one day reaping a political ROI on their efforts.

Trump’s ties to the Russian mafia go back 3 decades

"You really have to go back 20 or 30 years to understand who the key Russians were, what role they played in the Russian mafia, and how they related to Trump.

"The very first episode that’s been documented, to my knowledge, was in 1984 when David Bogatin — who is a Russian mobster, convicted gasoline bootlegger, and close ally of Semion Mogilevich, a major Russian mob boss — met with Trump in Trump Tower right after it opened. Bogatin came to that meeting prepared to spend $6 million, which is equivalent to about $15 million today."

"Bogatin bought five condos from Trump at that meeting. Those condos were later seized by the government, which claimed they were used to launder money for the Russian mob."

 

[Andylusion]

Marxist-Leninists create dictatorships supposedly to end exploitation, but in the end deliver the worst exploitation: tyranny, famine, and gulags.

Analysis | 10 Things You Should Know About Socialism

"Socialism is an economic system very different from capitalism, feudalism, and slavery.

"Each of the latter divided society into a dominant minority class (masters, lords, and employers) and a dominated majority (slaves, serfs, employees).

"When the majority recognized slavery and feudal systems as injustices, they eventually fell."

Capitalism comes from slavery.

In Europe there was a feudal interlude; however, in MAGA-land, capitalism came directly from the enslavement of millions of Africans and the mass murder of millions of Native Americans.

You call that "great."?

Yeah, it's a great lie. Just flat out lies. Great lies, but lies nonetheless.

 

[Andylusion]

....... right..... Trump a CIA operative, didn't even know it.... As if Putin knew a reality TV could ever win an election.

Trump was one among many American oligarchs who was cultivated by Soviet and Russian elites in hopes of one day reaping a political ROI on their efforts.

Trump’s ties to the Russian mafia go back 3 decades

"You really have to go back 20 or 30 years to understand who the key Russians were, what role they played in the Russian mafia, and how they related to Trump.

"The very first episode that’s been documented, to my knowledge, was in 1984 when David Bogatin — who is a Russian mobster, convicted gasoline bootlegger, and close ally of Semion Mogilevich, a major Russian mob boss — met with Trump in Trump Tower right after it opened. Bogatin came to that meeting prepared to spend $6 million, which is equivalent to about $15 million today."

"Bogatin bought five condos from Trump at that meeting. Those condos were later seized by the government, which claimed they were used to launder money for the Russian mob."

So someone bad, bought a Trump building, and then used it for illegal purposes, and was confiscated. If I bought your house, and then used to make heroin, and it was confiscated, would you be fine with everyone suggesting you were evil and in on it?

Grow up.

 

[Frankeneinstein]

Wack jobs like McCarthy would tell us the communists are coming the communists are coming.

That's why communists call him a "wack job"

 

[georgephillip]

Besides, they did.

Venezuela Merges Nationalised Banks to Form New Bicentenary Bank

Happened back in 2009.

Your link:

"Bolívar, Central and Confederado Banks were among eight banks taken over by the government in late November as a result of a mini banking crisis that prompted the arrest of a number of prominent bankers for violation of banking regulations.

"As a result of the merger of the three banks with the already state-owned bank, Banfoandes, it is estimated that the Bicentenary Bank now holds nearly 20% of all deposits in Venezuela."

What about the other 80% of bank deposits?

Were they held in private banks?

 

[georgephillip]

So someone bad, bought a Trump building, and then used it for illegal purposes, and was confiscated. If I bought your house, and then used to make heroin, and it was confiscated, would you be fine with everyone suggesting you were evil and in on it?

That particular someone bought five condos with six million dollars in cash; does that concern you? What if it happened repeatedly?

Trump’s ties to the Russian mafia go back 3 decades

"Look, I can’t prove what was in Trump’s head, or what he knew or when he knew it.

"But I document something like 1,300 transactions of this kind with Russian mobsters.

"By that, I mean real estate transactions that were all cash purchases made by anonymous shell companies that were quite obviously fronts for criminal money-laundering operations.

"And this represents a huge chunk of Trump’s real estate activity in the United States, so it’s quite hard to argue that he had no idea what was going on."

Why do you care about Clinton corruption, yet defend the corrupt crony capitalist who found a way to cut out the middleman?

 

[georgephillip]

Yeah, it's a great lie. Just flat out lies. Great lies, but lies nonetheless.

What "lie" are you referring to, the one about the role slavery played in America's economic history?

Slavery Made America

"by 1860, there were more millionaires (slaveholders all) living in the lower Mississippi Valley than anywhere else in the United States. In the same year, the nearly 4 million American slaves were worth some $3.5 billion, making them the largest single financial asset in the entire U.S. economy, worth more than all manufacturing and railroads combined."