Why was Antebellum Southern Slavery Immoral?

[rdean]

Hold on a minute. The same doesn't go for Nazi camp leaders. What the Nazis did was a universally understood breach of human rights. It hadn't been a matter of public law for 86 years, with Congress after Congress, and President after President, condoning and supporting it. Slavery was an established institution, and always had been. If you owned a cotton plantation, the fact that you owned slaves was not unusual, that's how cotton was harvested. The US SCOTUS upheld the institution, deemed slaves to be property, and there was absolutely nothing unethical about it at the time. I see too many people who want to somehow think, that slavery was illegal or that there wasn't any law which prevented it and people were exploiting that fact. It was perfectly legal, upheld by the SCOTUS, endorsed by Congress, and unaddressed by every president up to Lincoln. Nothing at all like the Nazis.

Yep, libtards love to compare conservatives to Nazis when the Nazis were socialists, antidemocratic and knew full well that they racism and anti-Semitism was condemned by most.

But then again, a libtard will be a libtard.

Nazi literally means "national socialist" which is literally the DNC platform.

Please describe that platform in detail. I seemed to have missed it.

 

[rdean]

Nazi literally means "national socialist" which is literally the DNC platform.

(My bold)

Yah, National Socialist is in there, in the NAZI acronym. Just like mainland China is the People's Republic of China, & every two-bit Warsaw Pact country was a People's Democratic Republic of this, that or t'other. Window dressing, doesn't mean zilch.

The NAZI program couldn't have been socialist, they were too busy/focussed on disposing of Jews, Romanis, homosexuals, pacifists, Communists, mental or physical defectives, or deformed (read: non-Aryan), any political, religious, military, intellectual or government opponents with cojones.

So... kind of like the Obama administration?

Hardly. Check out that list again. Gays? Intellectuals? Minorities? We know who hates them (wink, wink).

 

[whitehall]

Whoops, dean must have posted on the wrong forum.

 

[rightwinger]

It wasn't immoral at the time. Not any more than historical slavery was ever immoral.

Slavery was on its way out at the time of the civil war. There was no way it could have lasted more than a few more years at best.

Really now?

Then why did they fight a war over it?

 

[whitehall]

It wasn't immoral at the time. Not any more than historical slavery was ever immoral.

Slavery was on its way out at the time of the civil war. There was no way it could have lasted more than a few more years at best.

Really now?

Then why did they fight a war over it?

Why indeed. Slavery was a dying institution and the newly elected president should have realized that it would not last. The fact that Lincoln didn't even try to negotiate with his own Country is indicative of a pompous newly elected president who was well versed in the use of the English language but did not have the skill or the will to preserve the Union without bloodshed. It was a disgrace that Lincoln did not try to prevent the Southern delegation from ....freaking....leaving the union. Where was Lincoln when Southern delegates were planning secession?

 

[prepster]

I know why I believe it was, but I would like to compare notes.

Why was the slavery of the pre-Civil War Southern US immoral?

Morality is inherently subjective and normative. Objectively speaking, Antebellum Southern Slavery was, as other posters said, economically inefficient, ineffective, and inexpedient. However, if one needs a moral basis for why slavery was bad, it is because involuntary servitude is a breach of the non-aggression principle, the social contract, and the unalienable natural and political rights afforded to every man, woman, and child under the US Constitution and Bill of Rights.

 

[hoosier88]

Was slavery in the old South particularly immoral? Yes, in that indentured service in the colonies had always been problematic, English speakers could amass a grubstake, get some experience, & then light out for the Territories (& effectively be beyond the reach of civilization). Foreigners (French, German, Swiss & so on - could learn the language & customs well enough, & then light out too.

The particular problem was importing Black slaves (for ID purposes - unless otherwise documented, you could simply assume that any Black person was a slave or escaped; & sometimes even then). This was necessary because the Native Peoples simply evaporated - they would not stay & work backbreaking hours - or they just died. Indentured servants also fled as soon as they could.

Black slaves - fresh off the boat, without the language, culture, & no one to teach them (literacy was soon forbidden to slaves), were easily identifiable, & had no natural allies - other than perhaps the Native Peoples, who themselves were under the gun.

Slavery meant Black families were broken up, they had to invent or learn a common language, their cultures were suppressed. Slavery also had ugly effects on Caucasian Southern culture - the notion of the Southern belle, the corrosive effect upon marriage & chastity of having slave women available, willing or no. Plantation society ran riot - they dominated government, justice - there was no thought of free public universal education, investments in infrastructure, manufacturing, skilled labor.

When it came time to fight the Civil War, the South was in dire straits immediately. Their political structure - they basically dusted off the Articles of Confederation - left them with a v. weak executive. Fights about where each state's soldiers could be deployed & who would lead/arm/supply them were endemic throughout the war. Likewise shortages of clothing, food in the field, medical care, transport, rolling stock for the railroads.

 

[beagle9]

It wasn't immoral at the time. Not any more than historical slavery was ever immoral.

Slavery was on its way out at the time of the civil war. There was no way it could have lasted more than a few more years at best.

Really now?

Then why did they fight a war over it?

Did they fight that war, because it was being demanded that a man be a free man by those in government at the time, yet in an age where their were no modern day equipment to work the fields found in such old time corporations, could it be said that maybe an owner of such a large operation as a plantation, was given no ideas or solutions by his government upon how to get that work done afterwards, with it being (the toughest work in the world on a man or a woman in the grueling hot sun in those days), otherwise if that man or woman were free agents to choose otherwise at the time, would they still complete the task at hand if asked to within their new found freedom ?

These plantations had acreages that were numbered in the thousands did they not, in which was to be harvested and worked in some of the worst climate conditions, and so did this pose a huge fear that such a task could not possibly get done under any other program or circumstances at the time, so freedom was rejected by these owners whom were over these men and their women & children at the time ?

Is this what they thought or were thinking at the time maybe ? Therefore they were rejecting the idea or notion that these workers could be set free to make their own choices in life, when it would be thought next that they would reject the work or task that would still be placed upon them (only that they are free now to choose in such a task given them or not). I'm guessing the fear was that maybe they would instead choose not as free men, and that rather they would demand to much now as free men is what the fear was by these owners back then, and the owners of labor intensive corporations found around the world now. Is this world still found as hypocrites on this issue even to this very day ? Would this be the mindset of the owners of slaves back then & even modern day slave drivers of today? Is it all for the purpose of getting such a gargantuan task done without being given alternatives or options to satisfy them that the task can still get done without the abuse of workers in the process, otherwise they would be dealing with free men and free thinkers instead of slaves and/or labor intensive workforces whom aren't far from being slaves when all is said and done today? Maybe this is why the small businesses of America is key to keeping these abuses from happening, where as in small businesses that are plentiful or should be plentiful, there is always less need for massive workforces to complete a task, therefore abuse is less likely to be found in this set up correct? The corporations leading us back to darker time periods, should be looked at with a fine tooth comb by us the Americans, and if they are getting to big around the world, then they should be investigated in their practices when working or dealing with large labor intensive workforces. Nike was one of the ones in the past whom had been found abusing outside of the US through off shoring or outsourcing, so is this what Bill Clintons Nafta was all about, the ability to have corporations move about in the world to have other nations governments with poor human rights records to give their people/workers to corporations for whom will abuse them and work them out of sight of we whom are supposed to be against these sorts of things ? Did the south rise again through the old Dixiecrats found in a Bill Clinton and the like ?

Now lets roll forward to the illegals and their replacement of the American workforces that are here now, because hey just as it has been said by many in our government that they are just here doing the jobs that no one else will do right, and so why were they operating off of the grid for so long upon working these people ? How much abuse has gone on out of sight upon these workers, whom were working off the grid for so long doing the so called jobs that Americans just won't do? Be it abuse under slavery or abuse taking place upon so called free men is still abuse no matter how one looks at it. So America, how is it that you keep falling back into this trap ? Is it so bad that you can't get your spoiled rotten kids to work anymore, so you have to be on this quest to find someone else to do such things or is it that the corporations have created all this mess, because as they gobbled up the small farms (creating huge unworkable task for smaller family operations any longer as it were), did they take us right back to the days where huge resources in men are needed to complete a task upon such huge corporate operations that represent in the same as what the old Plantations once represented in America ? Now they are looking always for a people whom can be exploited in the ways in which they want to, and the bought and paid for politicians will ensure them that they would get what they want. How deep does this entrenched problem run in this nation and throughout the world I wonder?

 

[editec]

SLAVERY IS IMMORAL BECAUSE IT DEVALUES HONEST LABOR.

Slavery is an affront to every person who must labor for his daily bread.

Death to all slavers.

 

[beagle9]

SLAVERY IS IMMORAL BECAUSE IT DEVALUES HONEST LABOR.

Slavery is an affront to every person who must labor for his daily bread.

Death to all slavers.

Does labor intensive corporations throughout the world devalue honest labor, and has this been the case for far to long now in which America has partaken in as found also through out the world to this very day ? The monopolizing of corporations gobbling up the many once small owned businesses in America as a purpose, was it a good thing or a bad thing for America & also in the forming of this ideology throughout the world when looking back at all this stuff now ? Think about it all....... Just think about it.

Can anyone really sit back and find themselves not guilty also when they engaged in this consumerism on steroids for far to long now ? Is the democrats whom are acting as if they had no part in this to the illegals, lying through their teeth to them now, where as they are engaged in vote buying in all of this, because these people will still live in a world of consumerism in which the dems won't and will not solve for them anytime soon, so they will remain an under class even after all the vote hustling by the dems, because until this nation realizes once again about how important small business are, instead of with these plantations/corporations and/or to large a companies to fail, then we will remain in this game of destroying honest labor for the greed of the corporations operating around the world in respect to consumerism on steroids found here at home and elsewhere in the world. These corporations and their ideologies have been loosed in the world now in concept there of, and they will be always looking for the next labor force to exploit in the world. Our strength was once found in our small business model, where we had such strength in owners being upstanding and responsible for a few, instead of corporate greed looking to slave drive a huge workforce for the greed of a few within the ownership and staff, meanwhile the masses suffer as an underclass working within such a situation. In these situations a strong middle class cannot exist, so it is government lying when they say that it can and/or that they support the middle class or want to lift them up as they do. It's just all lies and class warfare continues on in and through out the world making some rich while others look on even though they have labored intensely without justification of in such a situation.

 

[Wyatt earp]

It wasn't immoral at the time. Not any more than historical slavery was ever immoral.

Slavery was on its way out at the time of the civil war. There was no way it could have lasted more than a few more years at best.

I dont know why anyone would want a slave even then, it must have been the "in" thing to have I guess.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Then you don't understand what morality is.

You don't think the context of history matters?
The actions of ancestors should be judged by my own moral?
I mean, it could work, but it will reduce the ability to understand our past, wouldn't it?

Let's say Aztec society believed that a god would destroy humanity if they failed in this sacrifice? They saved a million by killing one?

Understanding the past in its own context is one thing. Understanding what "morality" means is another.

You really do not think the two entwined?

Amazing, for you seem so intelligent otherwise.

 

[JimBowie1958]

SLAVERY IS IMMORAL BECAUSE IT DEVALUES HONEST LABOR.

Slavery is an affront to every person who must labor for his daily bread.

Death to all slavers.

I agree that is one major reason, but I wouldn't leave at that.

In said perspective, I also regard black market labor and the exploitation of illegal immigrants to also be immoral as well as illegal.

 

[Wyatt earp]

SLAVERY IS IMMORAL BECAUSE IT DEVALUES HONEST LABOR.

Slavery is an affront to every person who must labor for his daily bread.

Death to all slavers.

Does labor intensive corporations throughout the world devalue honest labor, and has this been the case for far to long now in which America has partaken in as found also through out the world to this very day ? The monopolizing of corporations gobbling up the many once small owned businesses in America, was it a good thing or a bad thing for America when looking back at all this stuff now ? Think about it all now....... Just think about it..

Corporations? seems to me were more of a slave to the US government then big bussiness. I dont have to work for them or by their products but forced by the government to buy crap I dont want or pay a penalty.

 

[JimBowie1958]

It wasn't immoral at the time. Not any more than historical slavery was ever immoral.

Slavery was on its way out at the time of the civil war. There was no way it could have lasted more than a few more years at best.

I dont know why anyone would want a slave even then, it must have been the "in" thing to have I guess.

To put it in the perspective of slave owners prior to the industrialization of slavery:

Slavery was seen as a more economical way to use servants. In the case of slaves, they were bought like one would buy a car instead of renting one. The abolitionists were viewed as thieves much like socialists today are so despised by many who see the socialist utopia as only plausible if built on the backs of working class people while the wealthy evade most of the burden via expensive lawyers and legal loopholes.

The abolition of slavery could have been done peacefully but other issues over-rode it and war was inevitable combined with these other issues.

 

[beagle9]

It wasn't immoral at the time. Not any more than historical slavery was ever immoral.

Slavery was on its way out at the time of the civil war. There was no way it could have lasted more than a few more years at best.

I dont know why anyone would want a slave even then, it must have been the "in" thing to have I guess.

They actually saw it as a necessity back then, just as they were seeing it with the illegals today. Hey they are just doing the jobs that Americans won't do, not saying that they can't do, but won't do. Isn't Barack Obama a party to this sort of speak as well that we have since found within the not so distant past ?

 

[beagle9]

SLAVERY IS IMMORAL BECAUSE IT DEVALUES HONEST LABOR.

Slavery is an affront to every person who must labor for his daily bread.

Death to all slavers.

Does labor intensive corporations throughout the world devalue honest labor, and has this been the case for far to long now in which America has partaken in as found also through out the world to this very day ? The monopolizing of corporations gobbling up the many once small owned businesses in America, was it a good thing or a bad thing for America when looking back at all this stuff now ? Think about it all now....... Just think about it..

Corporations? seems to me were more of a slave to the US government then big bussiness. I dont have to work for them or by their products but forced by the government to buy crap I dont want or pay a penalty.

The government is falling into the same trap, and that is sad, because they are supposed to represent us "WE THE PEOPLE", but the infiltration by an ideology in contrast to that concept has been completed.

 

[JimBowie1958]

SLAVERY IS IMMORAL BECAUSE IT DEVALUES HONEST LABOR.

Slavery is an affront to every person who must labor for his daily bread.

Death to all slavers.

Does labor intensive corporations throughout the world devalue honest labor, and has this been the case for far to long now in which America has partaken in as found also through out the world to this very day ? The monopolizing of corporations gobbling up the many once small owned businesses in America, was it a good thing or a bad thing for America when looking back at all this stuff now ? Think about it all now....... Just think about it..

Corporations? seems to me were more of a slave to the US government then big bussiness. I dont have to work for them or by their products but forced by the government to buy crap I dont want or pay a penalty.

No slavery, as it is a case of mutual benefit. One gets more sales, the other gets more funding to maintain the political duopoly we live under.

 

[JoeBlam]

There's a huge motorcycle parts yard in Phoenix who hires illegals at $50 a day...paid in cash at 5pm....ten hours out in the sun, wreching parts off derelict bikes.....it's not just the heat, or the scorpions, or the occasional rattlesnake.....it's TEN HOURS of work....tell me a slave on a plantation didn't do that well with his room and board as pay....if the slave screwed up, he got no food, if the illegal screws up, INS comes and gets him.

 

[beagle9]

There's a huge motorcycle parts yard in Phoenix who hires illegals at $50 a day...paid in cash at 5pm....ten hours out in the sun, wreching parts off derelict bikes.....it's not just the heat, or the scorpions, or the occasional rattlesnake.....it's TEN HOURS of work....tell me a slave on a plantation didn't do that well with his room and board as pay....if the slave screwed up, he got no food, if the illegal screws up, INS comes and gets him.

We went from southern style slavery and all other styles of slaveries found within many different nations, to having now a world slavery that is acceptable as well it seems by those benefiting from it or are being fooled by it. It is just found in many different forms now when being found all over the world as it is, but it is definitely not a myth that these things exist as they do, and it is despicable every time we encounter or see this, even though it is still something that people find they have to do until hopefully some how it all gets better for them under such conditions in which they encounter in their lives.