Carl in Michigan
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We keep making CO2 until winters in Michigan average 60 degrees though
Why Venus is 870 Degrees Everywhere Day or Night
- Thread starter Carl in Michigan
- Start date
Stryder50
Platinum Member
It does with regard to how it got so hot to begin with.
You start with understanding the concept of angular momentum. All the planets orbit the Sun in the same direction, angular momentum, and except for Venus also rotate in the same direction*. Venus has counter direction spin, or anti-angular momentum, and simplest explanation is it was flipped on its rotational axis by about 180 degrees, hence it spins "backwards" compared to the rest of the planets, and the general spin energy of the Solar System = angular momentum. The Sun spins on its axis in the same direction as the rest of the planets.
Angular momentum - Wikipedia
Flipping a planet the size and weight/mass of Venus, which is very close to that of Earth, would take HUGE amounts of energy. That energy would translate into one of two expressions;
1) It could have torn Venus apart creating an asteroid belt of sorts, or ...
2) The energy could have been held(trapped) as heat, which it appears the thick atmosphere of Venus did. Note that composition of the atmosphere isn't necessarily the key factor. It could have been a near equal heavy gas such as water vapor, or Nitrogen, or other other heavy gas molecule and likely have the same results.
The energy of the "Flip" is what loaded the atmosphere of Venus with energy/heat, and it's thickness/density is what helped retain such and grow to it's supposed equilibrium point**. The counter-rotation is indicative of the axial flip or "pole shift" that has Venus spinning opposite of the rest of the Solar System.
Consider that if the Solar System formed from a swirling, rotating massive cloud of gases and 'dust' than the planets should revolve about the Sun close to its equatorial plane and in the same direction or movement(angular momentum) and with rotational axis near perpendicular to the plane of revolution matching the Sun's equatorial band.
However, all the planets have slightly inclined orbital paths to the Solar ecliptic (equator) and all have some degree of axial tilt relative to that Solar Ecliptic (equatorial plane). This hints towards the possibility (probability) of large/massive intruder object at some time during early Solar System formation that had close encounters with the other planets causing the rotational axis to tilt and the orbit paths the deflect somewhat from the ideal, theoretical norm.
Solar System - Wikipedia
* - When viewed from the North Pole perspective the Sun and planets rotate counter-clockwise. Venus rotates clockwise. Shades of Velikovsky some might think, but he didn't propose what I've presented as best as I recall.
Immanuel Velikovsky - Wikipedia
** Uranus is a similar situation where it rotates on it side relative to the rest of the Solar System. (Axial tilt of 97.77 degrees) One could say it rolls along on it's equator. Since it appears to have the same rotational angular momentum, it's said to be pointing it's "South" pole towards the Sun.
Uranus - Wikipedia
Collectively there is strong hint of a very large/massive object having bounded through and about the Solar System (celestial billiards) in the formative stages setting all the planets akimbo on their orbital planes and rotational axis. Shades of Nibiru, but again, Sitchin didn't present quite the explanation that I'm suggesting.
Zecharia Sitchin - Wikipedia
Stryder50
Platinum Member
EXCERPT:
...
Earliest atmosphere
The first atmosphere consisted of gases in the solar nebula, primarily hydrogen. There were probably simple hydrides such as those now found in the gas giants (Jupiter and Saturn), notably water vapor, methane and ammonia.[42]
Second atmosphere
Outgassing from volcanism, supplemented by gases produced during the late heavy bombardment of Earth by huge asteroids, produced the next atmosphere, consisting largely of nitrogen plus carbon dioxide and inert gases.[42] A major part of carbon-dioxide emissions dissolved in water and reacted with metals such as calcium and magnesium during weathering of crustal rocks to form carbonates that were deposited as sediments. Water-related sediments have been found that date from as early as 3.8 billion years ago.[43]
About 3.4 billion years ago, nitrogen formed the major part of the then stable "second atmosphere". The influence of life has to be taken into account rather soon in the history of the atmosphere because hints of early life-forms appear as early as 3.5 billion years ago.[44] How Earth at that time maintained a climate warm enough for liquid water and life, if the early Sun put out 30% lower solar radiance than today, is a puzzle known as the "faint young Sun paradox".
The geological record however shows a continuous relatively warm surface during the complete early temperature record of Earth – with the exception of one cold glacial phase about 2.4 billion years ago. In the late Archean Eon an oxygen-containing atmosphere began to develop, apparently produced by photosynthesizing cyanobacteria (see Great Oxygenation Event), which have been found as stromatolite fossils from 2.7 billion years ago. The early basic carbon isotopy (isotope ratio proportions) strongly suggests conditions similar to the current, and that the fundamental features of the carbon cycle became established as early as 4 billion years ago.
Ancient sediments in the Gabon dating from between about 2.15 and 2.08 billion years ago provide a record of Earth's dynamic oxygenation evolution. These fluctuations in oxygenation were likely driven by the Lomagundi carbon isotope excursion.[45]
Third atmosphere
Oxygen content of the atmosphere over the last billion years[46][47]
The constant re-arrangement of continents by plate tectonics influences the long-term evolution of the atmosphere by transferring carbon dioxide to and from large continental carbonate stores. Free oxygen did not exist in the atmosphere until about 2.4 billion years ago during the Great Oxygenation Event and its appearance is indicated by the end of the banded iron formations.
Before this time, any oxygen produced by photosynthesis was consumed by the oxidation of reduced materials, notably iron. Free oxygen molecules did not start to accumulate in the atmosphere until the rate of production of oxygen began to exceed the availability of reducing materials that removed oxygen. This point signifies a shift from a reducing atmosphere to an oxidizing atmosphere. O2 showed major variations until reaching a steady state of more than 15% by the end of the Precambrian.[48] The following time span from 541 million years ago to the present day is the Phanerozoic Eon, during the earliest period of which, the Cambrian, oxygen-requiring metazoan life forms began to appear.
The amount of oxygen in the atmosphere has fluctuated over the last 600 million years, reaching a peak of about 30% around 280 million years ago, significantly higher than today's 21%. Two main processes govern changes in the atmosphere: Plants using carbon dioxide from the atmosphere and releasing oxygen, and then plants using some oxygen at night by the process of photorespiration while the remaining oxygen is used to break down organic material. Breakdown of pyrite and volcanic eruptions release sulfur into the atmosphere, which reacts with oxygen and hence reduces its amount in the atmosphere. However, volcanic eruptions also release carbon dioxide, which plants can convert to oxygen. The cause of the variation of the amount of oxygen in the atmosphere is not known. Periods with much oxygen in the atmosphere are associated with the rapid development of animals because oxygen is the high-energy molecule needed to power all complex life-forms.[49] Today's atmosphere contains 21% oxygen, which is great enough for this rapid development of animals.[50]
...
Atmosphere of Earth - Wikipedia
Earth's atmosphere has gone through significant changes in our @4.5 billion year history.
Also, Earth's CO2 concentration has been tens of times higher in the several hundred millions of year than until now, during the time-span of significant appearance of numerous flora and fauna lifeforms.
7000+ppm back then compared to @420ppm now.
Last edited:
Carl in Michigan
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Water vapor is a greenhouse gas the left doesn't like to talk about
Stryder50
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And at 10 times or more the percent of the dry atmosphere, a bit more than the CO2 and methane they wet their panties on which are about 0.04-5%
Votto
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Well sure, but how do you explain democrats?
It does with regard to how it got so hot to begin with.
You start with understanding the concept of angular momentum. All the planets orbit the Sun in the same direction, angular momentum, and except for Venus also rotate in the same direction*. Venus has counter direction spin, or anti-angular momentum, and simplest explanation is it was flipped on its rotational axis by about 180 degrees, hence it spins "backwards" compared to the rest of the planets, and the general spin energy of the Solar System = angular momentum. The Sun spins on its axis in the same direction as the rest of the planets.
Angular momentum - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Flipping a planet the size and weight/mass of Venus, which is very close to that of Earth, would take HUGE amounts of energy. That energy would translate into one of two expressions;
1) It could have torn Venus apart creating an asteroid belt of sorts, or ...
2) The energy could have been held(trapped) as heat, which it appears the thick atmosphere of Venus did. Note that composition of the atmosphere isn't necessarily the key factor. It could have been a near equal heavy gas such as water vapor, or Nitrogen, or other other heavy gas molecule and likely have the same results.
The energy of the "Flip" is what loaded the atmosphere of Venus with energy/heat, and it's thickness/density is what helped retain such and grow to it's supposed equilibrium point**. The counter-rotation is indicative of the axial flip or "pole shift" that has Venus spinning opposite of the rest of the Solar System.
Consider that if the Solar System formed from a swirling, rotating massive cloud of gases and 'dust' than the planets should revolve about the Sun close to its equatorial plane and in the same direction or movement(angular momentum) and with rotational axis near perpendicular to the plane of revolution matching the Sun's equatorial band.
However, all the planets have slightly inclined orbital paths to the Solar ecliptic (equator) and all have some degree of axial tilt relative to that Solar Ecliptic (equatorial plane). This hints towards the possibility (probability) of large/massive intruder object at some time during early Solar System formation that had close encounters with the other planets causing the rotational axis to tilt and the orbit paths the deflect somewhat from the ideal, theoretical norm.
Solar System - Wikipedia
* - When viewed from the North Pole perspective the Sun and planets rotate counter-clockwise. Venus rotates clockwise. Shades of Velikovsky some might think, but he didn't propose what I've presented as best as I recall.
Immanuel Velikovsky - Wikipedia
** Uranus is a similar situation where it rotates on it side relative to the rest of the Solar System. (Axial tilt of 97.77 degrees) One could say it rolls along on it's equator. Since it appears to have the same rotational angular momentum, it's said to be pointing it's "South" pole towards the Sun.
Uranus - Wikipedia
Collectively there is strong hint of a very large/massive object having bounded through and about the Solar System (celestial billiards) in the formative stages setting all the planets akimbo on their orbital planes and rotational axis. Shades of Nibiru, but again, Sitchin didn't present quite the explanation that I'm suggesting.
Zecharia Sitchin - Wikipedia
Peruse the Ideal Gas Laws. THEY are why Venus got so hot.
Stryder50
Platinum Member
And thanks for sharing more than a vague clue here.
For a start, an excerpt or two;
...
The ideal gas law, also called the general gas equation, is the equation of state of a hypothetical ideal gas. It is a good approximation of the behavior of many gases under many conditions, although it has several limitations. It was first stated by Benoît Paul Émile Clapeyron in 1834 as a combination of the empirical Boyle's law, Charles's law, Avogadro's law, and Gay-Lussac's law.[1] The ideal gas law is often written in an empirical form:
P V = n R T {\displaystyle PV=nRT}
where P {\displaystyle P}
...
Deviations from ideal behavior of real gases
The equation of state given here (PV = nRT) applies only to an ideal gas, or as an approximation to a real gas that behaves sufficiently like an ideal gas. There are in fact many different forms of the equation of state. Since the ideal gas law neglects both molecular size and inter molecular attractions, it is most accurate for monatomic gases at high temperatures and low pressures. The neglect of molecular size becomes less important for lower densities, i.e. for larger volumes at lower pressures, because the average distance between adjacent molecules becomes much larger than the molecular size. The relative importance of intermolecular attractions diminishes with increasing thermal kinetic energy, i.e., with increasing temperatures. More detailed equations of state, such as the van der Waals equation, account for deviations from ideality caused by molecular size and intermolecular forces....
Ideal gas law - Wikipedia
Perhaps you could share something more specific here, especially as pertains to Venus?
Also, are you assuming the atmosphere of Venus has always been what it is now, no changes over the past 4.5+ billion years of the Solar System's age?
Rather than try to sound smart, how about be such and provide us with a more specific indication of what you are trying to say here, or infer.
Samofvt
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I thought they were going to say "Menopause". Ok, equilibrium it one opinion. I'm guessing there are others (like vulcanism and chemistry still active).
And thanks for sharing more than a vague clue here.
For a start, an excerpt or two;
...
The ideal gas law, also called the general gas equation, is the equation of state of a hypothetical ideal gas. It is a good approximation of the behavior of many gases under many conditions, although it has several limitations. It was first stated by Benoît Paul Émile Clapeyron in 1834 as a combination of the empirical Boyle's law, Charles's law, Avogadro's law, and Gay-Lussac's law.[1] The ideal gas law is often written in an empirical form:
P V = n R T {\displaystyle PV=nRT}
where P {\displaystyle P}, V {\displaystyle V}and T {\displaystyle T}are the pressure, volume and temperature; n {\displaystyle n}is the amount of substance; and R {\displaystyle R}is the ideal gas constant. It is the same for all gases. It can also be derived from the microscopic kinetic theory, as was achieved (apparently independently) by August Krönig in 1856[2] and Rudolf Clausius in 1857.[3]
...
Deviations from ideal behavior of real gases
The equation of state given here (PV = nRT) applies only to an ideal gas, or as an approximation to a real gas that behaves sufficiently like an ideal gas. There are in fact many different forms of the equation of state. Since the ideal gas law neglects both molecular size and inter molecular attractions, it is most accurate for monatomic gases at high temperatures and low pressures. The neglect of molecular size becomes less important for lower densities, i.e. for larger volumes at lower pressures, because the average distance between adjacent molecules becomes much larger than the molecular size. The relative importance of intermolecular attractions diminishes with increasing thermal kinetic energy, i.e., with increasing temperatures. More detailed equations of state, such as the van der Waals equation, account for deviations from ideality caused by molecular size and intermolecular forces.
...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Ideal gas law - Wikipedia
Perhaps you could share something more specific here, especially as pertains to Venus?
Also, are you assuming the atmosphere of Venus has always been what it is now, no changes over the past 4.5+ billion years of the Solar System's age?
Rather than try to sound smart, how about be such and provide us with a more specific indication of what you are trying to say here, or
And thanks for sharing more than a vague clue here.
For a start, an excerpt or two;
...
The ideal gas law, also called the general gas equation, is the equation of state of a hypothetical ideal gas. It is a good approximation of the behavior of many gases under many conditions, although it has several limitations. It was first stated by Benoît Paul Émile Clapeyron in 1834 as a combination of the empirical Boyle's law, Charles's law, Avogadro's law, and Gay-Lussac's law.[1] The ideal gas law is often written in an empirical form:
P V = n R T {\displaystyle PV=nRT}
where P {\displaystyle P}, V {\displaystyle V}and T {\displaystyle T}are the pressure, volume and temperature; n {\displaystyle n}is the amount of substance; and R {\displaystyle R}is the ideal gas constant. It is the same for all gases. It can also be derived from the microscopic kinetic theory, as was achieved (apparently independently) by August Krönig in 1856[2] and Rudolf Clausius in 1857.[3]
...
Deviations from ideal behavior of real gases
The equation of state given here (PV = nRT) applies only to an ideal gas, or as an approximation to a real gas that behaves sufficiently like an ideal gas. There are in fact many different forms of the equation of state. Since the ideal gas law neglects both molecular size and inter molecular attractions, it is most accurate for monatomic gases at high temperatures and low pressures. The neglect of molecular size becomes less important for lower densities, i.e. for larger volumes at lower pressures, because the average distance between adjacent molecules becomes much larger than the molecular size. The relative importance of intermolecular attractions diminishes with increasing thermal kinetic energy, i.e., with increasing temperatures. More detailed equations of state, such as the van der Waals equation, account for deviations from ideality caused by molecular size and intermolecular forces.
...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Ideal gas law - Wikipedia
Perhaps you could share something more specific here, especially as pertains to Venus?
Also, are you assuming the atmosphere of Venus has always been what it is now, no changes over the past 4.5+ billion years of the Solar System's age?
Rather than try to sound smart, how about be such and provide us with a more specific indication of what you are trying to say here, or infer.
The ideal gas laws are used to show the relationship between volume, pressure, temperature, and the amount of gas, and how these relationships are combined to describe the behavior of any particular gas.
Boyles Law Avogadros law, Charles's law, all deal with a single quantity and several variables.
You use them to calculate the temperature of Venus, as an example.
It is the density of the atmosphere that causes the temperature. Very little else contributes.
Samofvt
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Can we? I mean, c'mon, that would be great, but don't get everyone's hopes up.
Samofvt
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Oh. That would explain why our moon's temperature fluctuates based on solar incidence:
"The moon rotates on its axis in about 27 days. Daytime on one side of the moon lasts about 13 and a half days, followed by 13 and a half nights of darkness. When sunlight hits the moon's surface, the temperature can reach 260 degrees Fahrenheit (127 degrees Celsius). When the sun goes down, temperatures can dip to minus 280 F (minus 173 C). Temperatures change all across the moon, as both the near and far side experience sunlight every lunar year, or terrestrial month, due to lunar rotation."
And why Jupiter's temperature ranges from 67degF at 10bars (it's 'upper' atmosphere) to 64,000degF near the "rocky" (speculative) core surface, even though it is over 5 AU from the sun (compared to Earth's 1 AU, on average). - What is the surface temperature of Jupiter
Also, consider that Jupiter's moon IO is also approximately 5 AU from the sun, and even without atmosphere has a high surface temperature due to other causes, like gravity and vulcanism:
"Jupiter's moon Io is 778 million kilometers from the Sun. Except at its volcanic hot spots, Io's surface temperature is well below freezing. Instruments aboard the space probe Galileo measured infrared energy emitted by volcanic hot spots on the satellite's surface. Io was found to have at least 12 active volcanoes erupting lava at temperatures over 1200 degrees Celsius. Scientists believe that lava at one of the sites reaches a temperature of over 1700 degrees Celsius. This temperature is approximately 3 times the hottest surface temperature on Mercury, the planet closest to the Sun. Two of Jupiter's satellites, Europa and Ganymede, pull Io into an elliptical orbit around Jupiter. Differences in the strength of Jupiter's gravitational pull as the distance between the planet and Io varies causes slight changes in Io's shape. Scientists believe that Io heats up internally when it changes shape. Io releases this inner heat in volcanic eruptions." - Jupiter's Moon, Io
There seems to be many factors affecting a planets temperature, besides the "scary green house gases" the OP is implying.
Last edited:
Quasar44
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Fort Fun Indiana
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Except it is a runaway greenhouse effect. It eventually reached equilibrium.
Fort Fun Indiana
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Venus has so much CO2 in its atmosphere because the greenhouse effect warmed the planet, causing more and more CO2 to be released into the atmosphere. It was a feedback loop.
Vebus and Earth have about the same amount of carbon. Much of Earth's carbon is locked up in biomass and still "fixed" in the ground.
Vebus and Earth have about the same amount of carbon. Much of Earth's carbon is locked up in biomass and still "fixed" in the ground.
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