Why no protests, no riots, no burning down of my city?

[Kondor3]

...Before you liberals chime in responding to the topic and not clicking the link, the police officer that killed this unarmed 18 year old black suspect is also African American. Next question: why did this story not make national media?

'Cause it wasn't dee Evil Tubob killin' dee bruvver...

-------------------------

Because it did not feed the LibTard Narrative that White Folk are bad, and oppressive of Black Folk, whom the DimoCraps need, to try to hold onto or regain power...

 

[Papageorgio]

Dude, if your insurance plan didn't even meet the lower standards of an ACA Bronze plan, it wasn't coverage at all.

I'm sorry someone broke that to you.

Did you ever see the Commie Care plans? I did. They are unaffordable and could barely be called insurance. They wanted over 25% of my net pay for a plan with a 7K out of pocket and 7K deductible. No prescriptions, no dental and no eye care. Plus they had a $50.00 doctor copay. It would have been like not having any insurance at all. Our company plan was not great, but it was a hell of a lot better than that.

They had a whole stack of documentation. Cleveland hired the guy anyway.

There was absolutely no way that the City wasn't paying out a huge settlement.

A mentally unstable cop who was fired from his last job shoots a child playing with a toy in a public park less than 1.3 seconds after emerging from his car?

He was far from mentally unstable. I know people that applied to be a Cleveland cop. In fact, one of my coworkers is a retired Cleveland cop. You have to take a psychological exam before they even look at you. He passed the police academy, he passed all the tests, but because you read some joker said he broke down on the range, you think his word is above all.

The Cleveland police got a recommendation from Independence police department. No issues, no suspensions, no misconduct.

My healthcare is terrible. $450 a month, $1800 deductible, 80/20 after that plus a $20 copay for every doctors visit. Glad the Dems made sure we got shit coverage for higher premiums, they worked hard to pass the crap coverage.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Dude, if your insurance plan didn't even meet the lower standards of an ACA Bronze plan, it wasn't coverage at all.

I'm sorry someone broke that to you.

Did you ever see the Commie Care plans? I did. They are unaffordable and could barely be called insurance. They wanted over 25% of my net pay for a plan with a 7K out of pocket and 7K deductible. No prescriptions, no dental and no eye care. Plus they had a $50.00 doctor copay. It would have been like not having any insurance at all. Our company plan was not great, but it was a hell of a lot better than that.

They had a whole stack of documentation. Cleveland hired the guy anyway.

There was absolutely no way that the City wasn't paying out a huge settlement.

A mentally unstable cop who was fired from his last job shoots a child playing with a toy in a public park less than 1.3 seconds after emerging from his car?

He was far from mentally unstable. I know people that applied to be a Cleveland cop. In fact, one of my coworkers is a retired Cleveland cop. You have to take a psychological exam before they even look at you. He passed the police academy, he passed all the tests, but because you read some joker said he broke down on the range, you think his word is above all.

The Cleveland police got a recommendation from Independence police department. No issues, no suspensions, no misconduct.

My healthcare is terrible. $450 a month, $1800 deductible, 80/20 after that plus a $20 copay for every doctors visit. Glad the Dems made sure we got shit coverage for higher premiums, they worked hard to pass the crap coverage.

Hell, I think I would jump on a deal like you're getting. What they offered me was much worse. Of course I would have to live check to check, but at least I would have something.

If the Republicans don't do something to fix this, it will continue to get worse. Forget about the poor, do something to help us middle-class working people out that DumBama attacked.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Well, when you are having to pay out 6 Million dollar judgements because your weepy cops shoot kids playing with toys, you probably aren't going to have enough money for stuff.

They didn't have to pay her a dime. The case was decided by a grand jury that no laws were broken. The six mil they handed over to this welfare queen was so the Mayor and other criminals could get reelected.

And the side of sanity offeres the following examples to show you are absolutely wrong. OJ was found not guilty by a jury. Yet, he was found liable in the civil case. How does that factor in to your whole criminal is the only thing that matters idea? I know you're penchant for demanding a link when I tell you that the earth is round, but are you going to demand a link about OJ?

Civil Forfeiture of course means the cops don't have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, just shuck and jive the Jury into thinking you got whatever it was by some vague illegal means. But of course the cops would never stoop to using civil court to take some money that they were not owed.

Here is a news story from your local zone there man. It seems that the Feds who investigated the Cleveland Police Department found a lot to be concerned about.

Cleveland Police misconduct detailed in 16 specific cases in Justice Department report

I know, what the hell does the Department of Justice know about the law, and how awesome the cops are in Cleveland? If only the ******* Feds would get out of the way with their silly Bill of Rights the awesome cops in Cleveland could clean up the town of all the undesirables.

I do have one question, since it is painfully obvious that the Cleveland Police regularly violate the Civil Rights of an individual, and in doing so violate the law. Are the cops out of control and abusing people because the Democrats won't support reform? Or is the city crime a problem because the Democrats are holding the cops on a short leash to keep them from doing what needs to be done? I'm pretty much certain that you think it's the Democrats and those damned Liberals who are to blame, I'm just not sure what the specific of the blame is.

The difference between the Rice and OJ cases is that there was a video tape of what happened with Rice. Not so for OJ. Everybody and their mother knows that OJ was guilty so it's much easier to win a civil suit.

Even in our state, if I shoot somebody in self-defense and it's ruled justified by the police, yes, I can still be sued unless I'm in my car or home, but it's not likely the individual I shot or their family would win the case. In our state, a CCW holder has the protection of our Castle Doctrine when in their car.

I'm not about to go through every Cleveland case, but I will say that in almost all cases, the police used whatever force necessary to protect themselves, and in all cases, the suspect didn't listen to the order of the police officer. The problem is not our police, it's suspects that believe they are above the law and don't have to listen to anybody.

One of the first things Mayor Jackson did when became Mayor was to force police to give suspects room to run. This happened after they surrounded a suspect and he got in his car and tried to run over the police officers. Because a car is considered a deadly weapon, the officers fired at the suspect killing him.

The city is no friend of the police department. They are now reducing the size of the police force and that will make it worse for all the citizens in the city, not to mention more pressure on the police officers that will still be working.

Totally justified. When the police caught a suspect, they restrained him, that is to say got him in cuffs, and then started kicking and punching him. That sounds pretty unjustifiable to me. It was considered unjustified by the DOJ. But what the hell do they know right?

Now, as for that shrinking police presence? You do know that the population in Cleveland has been steadily falling right?

Cleveland, Ohio Population History | 1840 - 2015

View attachment 142344

Sorry, but I tapped the wrong button, my mistake. The edited version continues from the pic above down.

Now, with a shrinking population, it is difficult to justify not shrinking some things, like police. I mean, when you are nearly at -20% growth rate, something has to give. Either everyone in town must be one of the mega wealthy to afford the taxes necessary to fund the cops, or you have to cut somewhere.

The police could help, all of those cases I linked to above, the city paid out in the lawsuits. Every single one, and every one was part of the Justice Departments report on excessive and egregious behavior by the police.

So not only is it illegal, and probably led to the "baddie" getting off with a much lighter sentence, but it was expensive.

I'm going to put this in terms that are easily understood. You said in another post that you delivered crates to have the factories close up and ship out with. Now, let's say you have a boom year, you hire ten people, and you are not only keeping them all busy, but you are actually falling behind, the next year you keep paying them, although there isn't as much work. The year after, you are struggling to pay them all, because you don't have enough work to keep half of them busy. You have to cut your staff, or find more work for them. If the income is unavailable, there just isn't more work, then you have to cut.

It's simple economics. If you take in $100, you can't spend more than that for long before you are bankrupt.

Is it sad to see a city in decline? Sure. But it is also part of the life. If your city is not reinventing itself, and investing in the future, and focused on sustainable growth, then it will fall behind, and then fail.

By sustainable future, I don't mean you have to have solar panels on every building. I mean you can't trash the city for next year to get a good number this year. It's like announcing that the Hells Angels are setting up their national headquarters in town. Everyone knows this is going to be a problem, and will be unsustainable.

Now, how do you propose to pay for the same number of police when you have fewer taxpayers? Miracle some money out man, let me see your grand plan. You might be the next Mayor of Cleveland if you can cook the books well enough.

It has nothing to do with how many people live in the city. Crime is still increasing. Out of the top 100 most dangerous cities, Cleveland is ranked 15:

Top 100 most dangerous places to live in the USA - NeighborhoodScout

And if you ever want to understand what Cleveland police go through, listen to the Cleveland police scanner some time at night when each patrol car is backed up five to ten calls.

As I stated several times, city council agreed to build a dirt bike park for nearly 2 million dollars. Why? Because the Mayors grandson got busted riding his dirt bike on the streets a couple of times. This is how the city wastes money.

What Cleveland police do is not illegal. If it were illegal, charges would be brought against them, and yes, that's happened a few times already.

 

[Papageorgio]

Dude, if your insurance plan didn't even meet the lower standards of an ACA Bronze plan, it wasn't coverage at all.

I'm sorry someone broke that to you.

Did you ever see the Commie Care plans? I did. They are unaffordable and could barely be called insurance. They wanted over 25% of my net pay for a plan with a 7K out of pocket and 7K deductible. No prescriptions, no dental and no eye care. Plus they had a $50.00 doctor copay. It would have been like not having any insurance at all. Our company plan was not great, but it was a hell of a lot better than that.

They had a whole stack of documentation. Cleveland hired the guy anyway.

There was absolutely no way that the City wasn't paying out a huge settlement.

A mentally unstable cop who was fired from his last job shoots a child playing with a toy in a public park less than 1.3 seconds after emerging from his car?

He was far from mentally unstable. I know people that applied to be a Cleveland cop. In fact, one of my coworkers is a retired Cleveland cop. You have to take a psychological exam before they even look at you. He passed the police academy, he passed all the tests, but because you read some joker said he broke down on the range, you think his word is above all.

The Cleveland police got a recommendation from Independence police department. No issues, no suspensions, no misconduct.

My healthcare is terrible. $450 a month, $1800 deductible, 80/20 after that plus a $20 copay for every doctors visit. Glad the Dems made sure we got shit coverage for higher premiums, they worked hard to pass the crap coverage.

Hell, I think I would jump on a deal like you're getting. What they offered me was much worse. Of course I would have to live check to check, but at least I would have something.

If the Republicans don't do something to fix this, it will continue to get worse. Forget about the poor, do something to help us middle-class working people out that DumBama attacked.

Totally agree, the middle class has the burden in this country and seem to be forgotten.

 

[SavannahMann]

Well, when you are having to pay out 6 Million dollar judgements because your weepy cops shoot kids playing with toys, you probably aren't going to have enough money for stuff.

They didn't have to pay her a dime. The case was decided by a grand jury that no laws were broken. The six mil they handed over to this welfare queen was so the Mayor and other criminals could get reelected.

And the side of sanity offeres the following examples to show you are absolutely wrong. OJ was found not guilty by a jury. Yet, he was found liable in the civil case. How does that factor in to your whole criminal is the only thing that matters idea? I know you're penchant for demanding a link when I tell you that the earth is round, but are you going to demand a link about OJ?

Civil Forfeiture of course means the cops don't have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, just shuck and jive the Jury into thinking you got whatever it was by some vague illegal means. But of course the cops would never stoop to using civil court to take some money that they were not owed.

Here is a news story from your local zone there man. It seems that the Feds who investigated the Cleveland Police Department found a lot to be concerned about.

Cleveland Police misconduct detailed in 16 specific cases in Justice Department report

I know, what the hell does the Department of Justice know about the law, and how awesome the cops are in Cleveland? If only the ******* Feds would get out of the way with their silly Bill of Rights the awesome cops in Cleveland could clean up the town of all the undesirables.

I do have one question, since it is painfully obvious that the Cleveland Police regularly violate the Civil Rights of an individual, and in doing so violate the law. Are the cops out of control and abusing people because the Democrats won't support reform? Or is the city crime a problem because the Democrats are holding the cops on a short leash to keep them from doing what needs to be done? I'm pretty much certain that you think it's the Democrats and those damned Liberals who are to blame, I'm just not sure what the specific of the blame is.

The difference between the Rice and OJ cases is that there was a video tape of what happened with Rice. Not so for OJ. Everybody and their mother knows that OJ was guilty so it's much easier to win a civil suit.

Even in our state, if I shoot somebody in self-defense and it's ruled justified by the police, yes, I can still be sued unless I'm in my car or home, but it's not likely the individual I shot or their family would win the case. In our state, a CCW holder has the protection of our Castle Doctrine when in their car.

I'm not about to go through every Cleveland case, but I will say that in almost all cases, the police used whatever force necessary to protect themselves, and in all cases, the suspect didn't listen to the order of the police officer. The problem is not our police, it's suspects that believe they are above the law and don't have to listen to anybody.

One of the first things Mayor Jackson did when became Mayor was to force police to give suspects room to run. This happened after they surrounded a suspect and he got in his car and tried to run over the police officers. Because a car is considered a deadly weapon, the officers fired at the suspect killing him.

The city is no friend of the police department. They are now reducing the size of the police force and that will make it worse for all the citizens in the city, not to mention more pressure on the police officers that will still be working.

Totally justified. When the police caught a suspect, they restrained him, that is to say got him in cuffs, and then started kicking and punching him. That sounds pretty unjustifiable to me. It was considered unjustified by the DOJ. But what the hell do they know right?

Now, as for that shrinking police presence? You do know that the population in Cleveland has been steadily falling right?

Cleveland, Ohio Population History | 1840 - 2015

View attachment 142344

Sorry, but I tapped the wrong button, my mistake. The edited version continues from the pic above down.

Now, with a shrinking population, it is difficult to justify not shrinking some things, like police. I mean, when you are nearly at -20% growth rate, something has to give. Either everyone in town must be one of the mega wealthy to afford the taxes necessary to fund the cops, or you have to cut somewhere.

The police could help, all of those cases I linked to above, the city paid out in the lawsuits. Every single one, and every one was part of the Justice Departments report on excessive and egregious behavior by the police.

So not only is it illegal, and probably led to the "baddie" getting off with a much lighter sentence, but it was expensive.

I'm going to put this in terms that are easily understood. You said in another post that you delivered crates to have the factories close up and ship out with. Now, let's say you have a boom year, you hire ten people, and you are not only keeping them all busy, but you are actually falling behind, the next year you keep paying them, although there isn't as much work. The year after, you are struggling to pay them all, because you don't have enough work to keep half of them busy. You have to cut your staff, or find more work for them. If the income is unavailable, there just isn't more work, then you have to cut.

It's simple economics. If you take in $100, you can't spend more than that for long before you are bankrupt.

Is it sad to see a city in decline? Sure. But it is also part of the life. If your city is not reinventing itself, and investing in the future, and focused on sustainable growth, then it will fall behind, and then fail.

By sustainable future, I don't mean you have to have solar panels on every building. I mean you can't trash the city for next year to get a good number this year. It's like announcing that the Hells Angels are setting up their national headquarters in town. Everyone knows this is going to be a problem, and will be unsustainable.

Now, how do you propose to pay for the same number of police when you have fewer taxpayers? Miracle some money out man, let me see your grand plan. You might be the next Mayor of Cleveland if you can cook the books well enough.

It has nothing to do with how many people live in the city. Crime is still increasing. Out of the top 100 most dangerous cities, Cleveland is ranked 15:

Top 100 most dangerous places to live in the USA - NeighborhoodScout

And if you ever want to understand what Cleveland police go through, listen to the Cleveland police scanner some time at night when each patrol car is backed up five to ten calls.

As I stated several times, city council agreed to build a dirt bike park for nearly 2 million dollars. Why? Because the Mayors grandson got busted riding his dirt bike on the streets a couple of times. This is how the city wastes money.

What Cleveland police do is not illegal. If it were illegal, charges would be brought against them, and yes, that's happened a few times already.

Ray, you haven't told me yet how you pay for thos police. You mention the dirt bike park. You really are an idiot. Instead of having the cops chase dirt bikes on the street, a chase that often ends in the bikers getting way, wasting the time of the cops, the idea is to give them a place to play.

Las Vegas runs a drag strip for street cars, so people can race each other in a controlled location, and safely instead of on the streets. They spent some time chasing the street racers, and now the racers are off the streets and on the tracks where they should be.

Inner City Basketball programs gets the kids off the streets where they are going to do something eventually, and into something if not constructive, then at least less destructive.

This is the reality of the situation. The City spent way more paying out on lawsuits than they did on a dirt bike park, and you think that the city wouldn't pay ten times that amount if it went to a jury? For some of those cases, the city would likely just sign over all of it to the victim of police brutality.

Finally, the idea that if the cops aren't prosecuted, and convicted, there was no crime is the dumbest argument I've ever heard of in all my long life. We do not count stolen cars based upon the vehicles recovered and thieves caught. We do not count murders based upon cases solved where the murderer is convicted. We don't count any crime statistic that way, except one. That one is the Police Misconduct. We count every other crime based upon reports, but police misconduct is only counted on convictions.

Using that standard, then I bet Cleveland is actually pretty safe, since I bet most murders are unsolved, and most robberies and burglaries are similarly unsolved. If there is no conviction, the crime just did not happen. That's ludicrous and either you know it or you are the heir to the throne of the kingdom of fools.

Cleveland may be dangerous, but again, where do you want the limited resources spent? Chasing some dirt bikes on the street? Or chasing the muggers, robbers, rapists, and murderers? Obviously, to show how intolerant you are on crime, you want hours long pursuits where dirt bikes take over the city center. How many hours would you suggest the police spend chasing dirt bikes on the streets every week?

Those inner city programs work. They reduce crime. Ohio has a massive Opioid crisis, and the Police, and Judges, and Prosecutors are figuring out that just tossing the people into the clink is not the answer. I know, i cn't tell you the time of day without a link to prove it. But for some reason you almost never provide a link, unless you happen to have it handy.

Link to Ohio's Opioid Crisis.
Here, heroin spares no one, not even the sheriff's wife - CNN
Here, heroin spares no one, not even the sheriff's wife — CNN

It took the Sheriff living with an addict to see first hand how the tough on crime bullshit doesn't solve a damned thing. Well, he's probably a Democrat, and if he and the wife had been Republican, that never would have happened. Or some such shit.

Want to afford more cops? Here's what you do. First, get the cops to stop beating the shit out of people in handcuffs. Tell them to shoot only when they see a gun. Tell them to stop being such thugs and the city can stop paying out lawsuits about Police Brutality. Tell the cops to stop framing people for crimes they did not commit. That would save enough money for another dirt bike park, and probably a dozen cops.

Cleveland ordered to pay $13.2 million judgment for police officer in wrongful conviction suit

$13,200,000 is a lot of money. Just think how many cops could be on the street with that kind of cash in the exchequer. But thinking about it is about all you can do, because you are defending the thugs who are brutalizing people, and framing them for crimes they did not commit. I bet the city wishes they had paid the plaintiff off before the trial started. The city paid another $13 million in settlements, and has $17 million that is owed to people who won their cases, but the city is appealing.

The high cost of police misconduct: Cleveland agreed to $13.2 million in settlements over two years

Now, since all that money comes out of the budget, it seems it is far more expensive to have police like you have in Cleveland, than a mayor who spends two million on a dirt bike park. If he had spent that on more cops on the street, he probably would have had to spend another ten million in paying out damages for brutality and false arrest lawsuits to keep the cops on the street costing the taxpayers incredible amounts of money.

Bad cops cost you way more than the Mayors son ever will.

So far, you've been lucky in Cleveland. A bad cop in Pennsylvania cost a city their entire police department.



Keep encouraging the cops to throw a beating on a guy, keep pretending it's fine. Keep watching the departments get smaller as their budgets are cut to afford the lawsuit settlements from their excesses. It doesn't bother me, I am not in Cleveland. But the more "good cops" who are really thugs in badges you have cleaning up the city, the more money they are going to cost you, and the rest of the citizens as taxes are raised, and services are cut to meet their fiscal responsibilities.

So I ask you again, how are you going to afford these costs? The lousy $2 million dirt bike park seems like a drop in the bucket that just from the links I've posted have cost more than $25 million, and another $17 million pending. You could pass a law that says the population can't sue the police, but I think even the Conservative members of the Supreme Court would object.

 

[JoeB131]

It was “indisputable” that the boy was drawing the pistol from his waistband when he was shot, McGinty said earlier this week.

And the people concluded he was indisputably full of shit and voted him out of office.

Step one is somebody would have to bring the case back to the Supreme Court. Step two is the Supreme Court would have to agree to hear the case. Step three is all judges appointed by Republicans would have to vote unanimously to overturn Roe vs Wade.

It is kind of obvious, you don't know how the Supreme Court works. You don't need a unanimous vote to overturn Roe. A simple majority would do, and Scotus has always been majority Republican appointees since Roe. In fact, of the 7 justices who ruled on Roe, Five were appointed by Nixon and Ike.

As we found out with Commie Care, a simple majority does not guarantee you a win. If the case is heard now and they decide to honor the previous ruling, it won't be re-heard for quite a long time afterwards. A strong conservative majority would overturn the law, and that's what the conservatives are waiting for.

Well, you see, here's the problem you have. The laws are actually clear. Roberts didn't turn into a liberal, he just realized that overturning the ACA wasn't in the court's jurisdiction. That would be Congress and the President... and oddly, now that you have those things, you STILL can't do it.

But back to Roe. The reality is, the five Republicans on the court now will not vote to reverse it. They know that would be political suicide for the GOP. But they keep stupid people like you hoping, one day, little Timmy, you'll make that slut have her baby and then whine about why she's getting food stamps.

But even if that was the case, it does not mean abortion is banned, it would only mean abortion has no constitutional protection. That would leave it up to law makers to make abortion illegal either at the state level or federal level.

Actually,t he Court could rule that life begins at conception, just like it ruled that gay marriage was the law of the land, if it really wanted to.

It won't, though. That would be stupid.

 

[JoeB131]

Totally agree, the middle class has the burden in this country and seem to be forgotten.

it hasn't been "forgotten". The Republicans have been remembering to dismantle it for the last 40 years with Union-Busting, Right To Work, Free Trade, At Will Employment, and all the other things they've done to screw working people.

The problem is, you wingnuts are too stupid to see there's a correlation between workers having no rights and workers not having a middle class.

But some shyster like Trump comes along and tells you it's all because of those poor people, and you gobble that stuff up with a big shit-eating smile...

 

[JoeB131]

My healthcare is terrible. $450 a month, $1800 deductible, 80/20 after that plus a $20 copay for every doctors visit. Glad the Dems made sure we got shit coverage for higher premiums, they worked hard to pass the crap coverage.

That doesn't sound that bad, actually.

But again, you guys are the ones who insist on letting big business screw you instead of going to single payer. So I'm not sure what you are complaining about, exactly.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

The problem is, you wingnuts are too stupid to see there's a correlation between workers having no rights and workers not having a middle class.

You leftist loons can't see the correlation between jobs leaving America and unions.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

And the people concluded he was indisputably full of shit and voted him out of office.

And the Grand Jury indisputable said he wasn't.

It is kind of obvious, you don't know how the Supreme Court works. You don't need a unanimous vote to overturn Roe. A simple majority would do, and Scotus has always been majority Republican appointees since Roe. In fact, of the 7 justices who ruled on Roe, Five were appointed by Nixon and Ike.

Where did I say you needed a unanimous vote?

Well, you see, here's the problem you have. The laws are actually clear. Roberts didn't turn into a liberal, he just realized that overturning the ACA wasn't in the court's jurisdiction. That would be Congress and the President... and oddly, now that you have those things, you STILL can't do it.

But back to Roe. The reality is, the five Republicans on the court now will not vote to reverse it. They know that would be political suicide for the GOP. But they keep stupid people like you hoping, one day, little Timmy, you'll make that slut have her baby and then whine about why she's getting food stamps.

What Roberts said is that you can't call it a penalty. If you refer to it as a tax, Commie Care is constitutional under Congresses power to create taxation.

It's not the justices job to change the wording of laws--only to decide if the laws created are constitutional or not. He was out of line, and should have just ruled it's unconstitutional to penalize people for not buying things the government insists on.

You may be correct. One or more judges appointed by Republicans may keep Roe vs Wade. That was my point all along. So again, you can't count on Republican appointed judges to rule conservatively all the time.

Actually,t he Court could rule that life begins at conception, just like it ruled that gay marriage was the law of the land, if it really wanted to.

It won't, though. That would be stupid.

Wrong. The SC only rules if something is constitutional or not--they do not create definitions to things like when a person becomes a human being. That's a legislative issue. The only ruling they could have is on Roe vs Wade, and that's it.

 

[JoeB131]

You leftist loons can't see the correlation between jobs leaving America and unions.

Naw, the reason why the jobs disappear is because people can't afford stuff.

You can only sell so many dancing horses to the rich.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

You leftist loons can't see the correlation between jobs leaving America and unions.

Naw, the reason why the jobs disappear is because people can't afford stuff.

You can only sell so many dancing horses to the rich.

No, wrong again. The American consumer is focused on cheap. We won't support those union jobs you speak of.

It started long ago. I remember when full service gas stations began to sell self-serve. They used that model to keep their mechanics working instead of pumping gas. The gasoline was cheaper at the self-serve pump. Before you knew it, people were lining up at the self-serve pump instead of the full-serve. So they made two pumps self-serve, then three. Eventually they all went to self-serve because people didn't mind pumping the gasoline themselves if they could save a buck or two.

When gasoline starts coming down in price, stations have gas wars. People would line up to save 30 cents a gallon even if it took them an hour to get to the gasoline pump. And remember Thanksgiving? People would get in line and spend all night. Some would even bring sleeping bags and sleep while it was snowing to get inside the store to buy their cheaper Christmas items the day after Thanksgiving. Some incidents resulted in deaths.

It wasn't the Republicans, it wasn't big business, it's the American consumer. Businesses cater to their customer demands, and Americans are obsessed with getting the cheapest price.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Ray, you haven't told me yet how you pay for thos police. You mention the dirt bike park. You really are an idiot. Instead of having the cops chase dirt bikes on the street, a chase that often ends in the bikers getting way, wasting the time of the cops, the idea is to give them a place to play.

Yeah, one place to play in the entire city of Cleveland. You call me an idiot? Did you ever ask yourself how these ghetto people are going to get those bikes to the bike park? Think those lowlifes will tow their two thousand dollar bike trailer with their twenty thousand dollar pickup truck there?

Use your brains for crying out loud!

Inner City Basketball programs gets the kids off the streets where they are going to do something eventually, and into something if not constructive, then at least less destructive.

Oh, basketball programs like Clinton's midnight basketball courts that resulted in three separate shootings?

This is the reality of the situation. The City spent way more paying out on lawsuits than they did on a dirt bike park, and you think that the city wouldn't pay ten times that amount if it went to a jury? For some of those cases, the city would likely just sign over all of it to the victim of police brutality.

Once you show the public you will not fight a lawsuit, you become a target. Ambulance chasers swarm in from everywhere just to get a cut in the payout.

If a police officer is found not to be doing anything illegal, you fight it until the end. Even if it costs more money to fight lawsuits, you set a precedent for those in the future that are looking to cash in.

Finally, the idea that if the cops aren't prosecuted, and convicted, there was no crime is the dumbest argument I've ever heard of in all my long life.

Sorry, but that's the way it works. In any shooting, multiple investigations take place. If the officer broke no laws, no charges are filed. if it's questionable such as the Tamir Rice case, it goes to a grand jury. If the GJ believes an officer broke a law, that officer is charged for the crime per the OP.

What you're saying (as so many liberals do) is that we should prosecute officers even though they didn't break any laws. WTF kind of country do you think we would have if we conducted ourselves with that jungle mentality? How would you like it if a police officer arrested you for having a supped up car, but didn't break any speed limits? If you broke no laws, WTF should you pay any penalty for not breaking any laws?

Cleveland may be dangerous, but again, where do you want the limited resources spent? Chasing some dirt bikes on the street? Or chasing the muggers, robbers, rapists, and murderers? Obviously, to show how intolerant you are on crime, you want hours long pursuits where dirt bikes take over the city center. How many hours would you suggest the police spend chasing dirt bikes on the streets every week?

Well genius, riddle me this: what do you think the parents will do when one of their children gets seriously hurt in that bike park? Think they will just pay the bill and say "oh well, it was my sons fault?" Of course not, there will be lawsuit after lawsuit with kids getting injured or even killed. And when a large enough suit is awarded, they will have to close down that two million dollar park, and then drug addicts and pushers will hang around there.

The city of Cleveland awarded Rice's mother 6 million dollars without the case being heard. The investigations and video showed that the police officers broke no laws. Now add that 2 million dollar bike path money, and we have 8 million dollars we could use to keep our police and maybe upgrade their vehicles.

Those inner city programs work. They reduce crime. Ohio has a massive Opioid crisis, and the Police, and Judges, and Prosecutors are figuring out that just tossing the people into the clink is not the answer. I know, i cn't tell you the time of day without a link to prove it. But for some reason you almost never provide a link, unless you happen to have it handy.

The state of Ohio put an issue on the ballot several years ago which would have allowed first time drug offenders to enter rehab instead of prison. I voted for that measure, but it was beat by a two-to-one margin. So what are police supposed to do about that?

My cousin lost her 28 year old son to dope almost two years ago. It tore her and her husband apart. He was addicted since the age of 15. They tried everything including several rehabs. Nothing worked. I also have a friend who's two sons spent years in prison. When they got out, they went right back to the dope again.

So you tell me, what would work? Rehab doesn't work in many cases. Keeping them away from drugs even for years doesn't work. So what are we supposed to do?

So I ask you again, how are you going to afford these costs? The lousy $2 million dirt bike park seems like a drop in the bucket that just from the links I've posted have cost more than $25 million, and another $17 million pending. You could pass a law that says the population can't sue the police, but I think even the Conservative members of the Supreme Court would object.

What we need is a law that states if no law was broken, you cannot sue anybody in a civil court. The stupidity that you can sue somebody who broke no laws is what leads to these ridiculous lawsuits that are sometimes won.

 

[SavannahMann]

Ray, you haven't told me yet how you pay for thos police. You mention the dirt bike park. You really are an idiot. Instead of having the cops chase dirt bikes on the street, a chase that often ends in the bikers getting way, wasting the time of the cops, the idea is to give them a place to play.

Yeah, one place to play in the entire city of Cleveland. You call me an idiot? Did you ever ask yourself how these ghetto people are going to get those bikes to the bike park? Think those lowlifes will tow their two thousand dollar bike trailer with their twenty thousand dollar pickup truck there?

Use your brains for crying out loud!

Inner City Basketball programs gets the kids off the streets where they are going to do something eventually, and into something if not constructive, then at least less destructive.

Oh, basketball programs like Clinton's midnight basketball courts that resulted in three separate shootings?

This is the reality of the situation. The City spent way more paying out on lawsuits than they did on a dirt bike park, and you think that the city wouldn't pay ten times that amount if it went to a jury? For some of those cases, the city would likely just sign over all of it to the victim of police brutality.

Once you show the public you will not fight a lawsuit, you become a target. Ambulance chasers swarm in from everywhere just to get a cut in the payout.

If a police officer is found not to be doing anything illegal, you fight it until the end. Even if it costs more money to fight lawsuits, you set a precedent for those in the future that are looking to cash in.

Finally, the idea that if the cops aren't prosecuted, and convicted, there was no crime is the dumbest argument I've ever heard of in all my long life.

Sorry, but that's the way it works. In any shooting, multiple investigations take place. If the officer broke no laws, no charges are filed. if it's questionable such as the Tamir Rice case, it goes to a grand jury. If the GJ believes an officer broke a law, that officer is charged for the crime per the OP.

What you're saying (as so many liberals do) is that we should prosecute officers even though they didn't break any laws. WTF kind of country do you think we would have if we conducted ourselves with that jungle mentality? How would you like it if a police officer arrested you for having a supped up car, but didn't break any speed limits? If you broke no laws, WTF should you pay any penalty for not breaking any laws?

Cleveland may be dangerous, but again, where do you want the limited resources spent? Chasing some dirt bikes on the street? Or chasing the muggers, robbers, rapists, and murderers? Obviously, to show how intolerant you are on crime, you want hours long pursuits where dirt bikes take over the city center. How many hours would you suggest the police spend chasing dirt bikes on the streets every week?

Well genius, riddle me this: what do you think the parents will do when one of their children gets seriously hurt in that bike park? Think they will just pay the bill and say "oh well, it was my sons fault?" Of course not, there will be lawsuit after lawsuit with kids getting injured or even killed. And when a large enough suit is awarded, they will have to close down that two million dollar park, and then drug addicts and pushers will hang around there.

The city of Cleveland awarded Rice's mother 6 million dollars without the case being heard. The investigations and video showed that the police officers broke no laws. Now add that 2 million dollar bike path money, and we have 8 million dollars we could use to keep our police and maybe upgrade their vehicles.

Those inner city programs work. They reduce crime. Ohio has a massive Opioid crisis, and the Police, and Judges, and Prosecutors are figuring out that just tossing the people into the clink is not the answer. I know, i cn't tell you the time of day without a link to prove it. But for some reason you almost never provide a link, unless you happen to have it handy.

The state of Ohio put an issue on the ballot several years ago which would have allowed first time drug offenders to enter rehab instead of prison. I voted for that measure, but it was beat by a two-to-one margin. So what are police supposed to do about that?

My cousin lost her 28 year old son to dope almost two years ago. It tore her and her husband apart. He was addicted since the age of 15. They tried everything including several rehabs. Nothing worked. I also have a friend who's two sons spent years in prison. When they got out, they went right back to the dope again.

So you tell me, what would work? Rehab doesn't work in many cases. Keeping them away from drugs even for years doesn't work. So what are we supposed to do?

So I ask you again, how are you going to afford these costs? The lousy $2 million dirt bike park seems like a drop in the bucket that just from the links I've posted have cost more than $25 million, and another $17 million pending. You could pass a law that says the population can't sue the police, but I think even the Conservative members of the Supreme Court would object.

What we need is a law that states if no law was broken, you cannot sue anybody in a civil court. The stupidity that you can sue somebody who broke no laws is what leads to these ridiculous lawsuits that are sometimes won.

Civil court is where you determine liability. Not criminality. That simple fact keeps escaping you. I'll give you a for example you can relate to. Let's say you are walking to your car in the dark of the night in mean old dangerous Cleveland. There, a scary black guy steps out and shows you his gun in his waistband. You pretend to go for your wallet but pull your pistol out. He sees this and pulls his. You start firing, and he starts firing. You put him down since you have the Dirty Harry signature model pistol. But two of your rounds went stray. They did not hit the target.

The police show up and after beating on any blacks who happened to be there, give the corpse a ticket for littering and decide you were totally justified in shooting the baddie. They even stand and pose with you as you hold the head up of your game kill.

But we mentioned the two stray rounds didn't we? One of those struck Mrs. Herbert Thubwhumper who was pouring herself a cup of coffee in her kitchen. It requires a hip replacement to fix what was damaged.

You broke no laws, but you can be sued, and you would probably lose. It was your bullet that went flying. Now, if you are smart you have some sort of insurance. There are several, the USCCA is just one. I'd give you a link, but if you can't look up insurance well there is no hope for you.

They would suggest that you settle, because if you don't, then it goes to a jury. A jury who is going to hear about how Mrs. Herbert Thubwhumper is in pain all the time since you shot her with your Dirty Harry signature model pistol. The plaintiff's attorney is going to talk about all the less powerful guns you could have chosen, but you went with the baddest one you could find.

The insurance has a limit, and when the jury awards a bazillion dollars to Mrs. Herbert Thubwhumper you have to pay all that is left after the insurance runs out.

The cases that Cleveland settled came to just over 13 million. The ones they fought in court, two of them, came to $17 million. Now, most of us who went to a decent public school see it like this. $13,000,000 < $17,000,000. Now, Cleveland is fighting the $17 Mil, but if they lose they have to pay. Or the Judge will order the city property seized and the assets sold to pay the debt.

Now, before you post a reply about how things ought to be, just remember that Civil is different and not excluded by criminal activity. That's the way it has always been since the nation was founded. Civil court, lawsuits, seek to recover money or property for a wrong or damages. Abraham Lincoln as a lawyer was involved in more than one of these. So while you are decrying how fucked up it is that good cops who beat up people in handcuffs are sued, know that it not only is it not going to change, it shouldn't.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Ray, you haven't told me yet how you pay for thos police. You mention the dirt bike park. You really are an idiot. Instead of having the cops chase dirt bikes on the street, a chase that often ends in the bikers getting way, wasting the time of the cops, the idea is to give them a place to play.

Yeah, one place to play in the entire city of Cleveland. You call me an idiot? Did you ever ask yourself how these ghetto people are going to get those bikes to the bike park? Think those lowlifes will tow their two thousand dollar bike trailer with their twenty thousand dollar pickup truck there?

Use your brains for crying out loud!

Inner City Basketball programs gets the kids off the streets where they are going to do something eventually, and into something if not constructive, then at least less destructive.

Oh, basketball programs like Clinton's midnight basketball courts that resulted in three separate shootings?

This is the reality of the situation. The City spent way more paying out on lawsuits than they did on a dirt bike park, and you think that the city wouldn't pay ten times that amount if it went to a jury? For some of those cases, the city would likely just sign over all of it to the victim of police brutality.

Once you show the public you will not fight a lawsuit, you become a target. Ambulance chasers swarm in from everywhere just to get a cut in the payout.

If a police officer is found not to be doing anything illegal, you fight it until the end. Even if it costs more money to fight lawsuits, you set a precedent for those in the future that are looking to cash in.

Finally, the idea that if the cops aren't prosecuted, and convicted, there was no crime is the dumbest argument I've ever heard of in all my long life.

Sorry, but that's the way it works. In any shooting, multiple investigations take place. If the officer broke no laws, no charges are filed. if it's questionable such as the Tamir Rice case, it goes to a grand jury. If the GJ believes an officer broke a law, that officer is charged for the crime per the OP.

What you're saying (as so many liberals do) is that we should prosecute officers even though they didn't break any laws. WTF kind of country do you think we would have if we conducted ourselves with that jungle mentality? How would you like it if a police officer arrested you for having a supped up car, but didn't break any speed limits? If you broke no laws, WTF should you pay any penalty for not breaking any laws?

Cleveland may be dangerous, but again, where do you want the limited resources spent? Chasing some dirt bikes on the street? Or chasing the muggers, robbers, rapists, and murderers? Obviously, to show how intolerant you are on crime, you want hours long pursuits where dirt bikes take over the city center. How many hours would you suggest the police spend chasing dirt bikes on the streets every week?

Well genius, riddle me this: what do you think the parents will do when one of their children gets seriously hurt in that bike park? Think they will just pay the bill and say "oh well, it was my sons fault?" Of course not, there will be lawsuit after lawsuit with kids getting injured or even killed. And when a large enough suit is awarded, they will have to close down that two million dollar park, and then drug addicts and pushers will hang around there.

The city of Cleveland awarded Rice's mother 6 million dollars without the case being heard. The investigations and video showed that the police officers broke no laws. Now add that 2 million dollar bike path money, and we have 8 million dollars we could use to keep our police and maybe upgrade their vehicles.

Those inner city programs work. They reduce crime. Ohio has a massive Opioid crisis, and the Police, and Judges, and Prosecutors are figuring out that just tossing the people into the clink is not the answer. I know, i cn't tell you the time of day without a link to prove it. But for some reason you almost never provide a link, unless you happen to have it handy.

The state of Ohio put an issue on the ballot several years ago which would have allowed first time drug offenders to enter rehab instead of prison. I voted for that measure, but it was beat by a two-to-one margin. So what are police supposed to do about that?

My cousin lost her 28 year old son to dope almost two years ago. It tore her and her husband apart. He was addicted since the age of 15. They tried everything including several rehabs. Nothing worked. I also have a friend who's two sons spent years in prison. When they got out, they went right back to the dope again.

So you tell me, what would work? Rehab doesn't work in many cases. Keeping them away from drugs even for years doesn't work. So what are we supposed to do?

So I ask you again, how are you going to afford these costs? The lousy $2 million dirt bike park seems like a drop in the bucket that just from the links I've posted have cost more than $25 million, and another $17 million pending. You could pass a law that says the population can't sue the police, but I think even the Conservative members of the Supreme Court would object.

What we need is a law that states if no law was broken, you cannot sue anybody in a civil court. The stupidity that you can sue somebody who broke no laws is what leads to these ridiculous lawsuits that are sometimes won.

Civil court is where you determine liability. Not criminality. That simple fact keeps escaping you. I'll give you a for example you can relate to. Let's say you are walking to your car in the dark of the night in mean old dangerous Cleveland. There, a scary black guy steps out and shows you his gun in his waistband. You pretend to go for your wallet but pull your pistol out. He sees this and pulls his. You start firing, and he starts firing. You put him down since you have the Dirty Harry signature model pistol. But two of your rounds went stray. They did not hit the target.

The police show up and after beating on any blacks who happened to be there, give the corpse a ticket for littering and decide you were totally justified in shooting the baddie. They even stand and pose with you as you hold the head up of your game kill.

But we mentioned the two stray rounds didn't we? One of those struck Mrs. Herbert Thubwhumper who was pouring herself a cup of coffee in her kitchen. It requires a hip replacement to fix what was damaged.

You broke no laws, but you can be sued, and you would probably lose. It was your bullet that went flying. Now, if you are smart you have some sort of insurance. There are several, the USCCA is just one. I'd give you a link, but if you can't look up insurance well there is no hope for you.

They would suggest that you settle, because if you don't, then it goes to a jury. A jury who is going to hear about how Mrs. Herbert Thubwhumper is in pain all the time since you shot her with your Dirty Harry signature model pistol. The plaintiff's attorney is going to talk about all the less powerful guns you could have chosen, but you went with the baddest one you could find.

The insurance has a limit, and when the jury awards a bazillion dollars to Mrs. Herbert Thubwhumper you have to pay all that is left after the insurance runs out.

The cases that Cleveland settled came to just over 13 million. The ones they fought in court, two of them, came to $17 million. Now, most of us who went to a decent public school see it like this. $13,000,000 < $17,000,000. Now, Cleveland is fighting the $17 Mil, but if they lose they have to pay. Or the Judge will order the city property seized and the assets sold to pay the debt.

Now, before you post a reply about how things ought to be, just remember that Civil is different and not excluded by criminal activity. That's the way it has always been since the nation was founded. Civil court, lawsuits, seek to recover money or property for a wrong or damages. Abraham Lincoln as a lawyer was involved in more than one of these. So while you are decrying how fucked up it is that good cops who beat up people in handcuffs are sued, know that it not only is it not going to change, it shouldn't.

Your scenario is ridiculous. If I accidentally shot somebody, I would be arrested and prosecuted. It's my legal duty to insure that nobody is "downrange" of my target. It's called involuntary manslaughter and if nobody was killed, assault with a deadly weapon.

The problem is even if I shot that scary black man, killed him, his family has the legal right to sue me even though the police investigation ruled it justified. In other words, I did the right thing, I obeyed all laws, I used deadly force to protect my own life, and yet I can get sued anyway.

A more fair comparison is if I seen a house on fire, and a child screaming for help. I bust down the front door and save the child. But then, the parents of the child sues me for breaking down the door. The police would not charge me for the damage or forced entry. It would be perfectly legal considering the circumstance.

 

[SavannahMann]

Ray, you haven't told me yet how you pay for thos police. You mention the dirt bike park. You really are an idiot. Instead of having the cops chase dirt bikes on the street, a chase that often ends in the bikers getting way, wasting the time of the cops, the idea is to give them a place to play.

Yeah, one place to play in the entire city of Cleveland. You call me an idiot? Did you ever ask yourself how these ghetto people are going to get those bikes to the bike park? Think those lowlifes will tow their two thousand dollar bike trailer with their twenty thousand dollar pickup truck there?

Use your brains for crying out loud!

Inner City Basketball programs gets the kids off the streets where they are going to do something eventually, and into something if not constructive, then at least less destructive.

Oh, basketball programs like Clinton's midnight basketball courts that resulted in three separate shootings?

This is the reality of the situation. The City spent way more paying out on lawsuits than they did on a dirt bike park, and you think that the city wouldn't pay ten times that amount if it went to a jury? For some of those cases, the city would likely just sign over all of it to the victim of police brutality.

Once you show the public you will not fight a lawsuit, you become a target. Ambulance chasers swarm in from everywhere just to get a cut in the payout.

If a police officer is found not to be doing anything illegal, you fight it until the end. Even if it costs more money to fight lawsuits, you set a precedent for those in the future that are looking to cash in.

Finally, the idea that if the cops aren't prosecuted, and convicted, there was no crime is the dumbest argument I've ever heard of in all my long life.

Sorry, but that's the way it works. In any shooting, multiple investigations take place. If the officer broke no laws, no charges are filed. if it's questionable such as the Tamir Rice case, it goes to a grand jury. If the GJ believes an officer broke a law, that officer is charged for the crime per the OP.

What you're saying (as so many liberals do) is that we should prosecute officers even though they didn't break any laws. WTF kind of country do you think we would have if we conducted ourselves with that jungle mentality? How would you like it if a police officer arrested you for having a supped up car, but didn't break any speed limits? If you broke no laws, WTF should you pay any penalty for not breaking any laws?

Cleveland may be dangerous, but again, where do you want the limited resources spent? Chasing some dirt bikes on the street? Or chasing the muggers, robbers, rapists, and murderers? Obviously, to show how intolerant you are on crime, you want hours long pursuits where dirt bikes take over the city center. How many hours would you suggest the police spend chasing dirt bikes on the streets every week?

Well genius, riddle me this: what do you think the parents will do when one of their children gets seriously hurt in that bike park? Think they will just pay the bill and say "oh well, it was my sons fault?" Of course not, there will be lawsuit after lawsuit with kids getting injured or even killed. And when a large enough suit is awarded, they will have to close down that two million dollar park, and then drug addicts and pushers will hang around there.

The city of Cleveland awarded Rice's mother 6 million dollars without the case being heard. The investigations and video showed that the police officers broke no laws. Now add that 2 million dollar bike path money, and we have 8 million dollars we could use to keep our police and maybe upgrade their vehicles.

Those inner city programs work. They reduce crime. Ohio has a massive Opioid crisis, and the Police, and Judges, and Prosecutors are figuring out that just tossing the people into the clink is not the answer. I know, i cn't tell you the time of day without a link to prove it. But for some reason you almost never provide a link, unless you happen to have it handy.

The state of Ohio put an issue on the ballot several years ago which would have allowed first time drug offenders to enter rehab instead of prison. I voted for that measure, but it was beat by a two-to-one margin. So what are police supposed to do about that?

My cousin lost her 28 year old son to dope almost two years ago. It tore her and her husband apart. He was addicted since the age of 15. They tried everything including several rehabs. Nothing worked. I also have a friend who's two sons spent years in prison. When they got out, they went right back to the dope again.

So you tell me, what would work? Rehab doesn't work in many cases. Keeping them away from drugs even for years doesn't work. So what are we supposed to do?

So I ask you again, how are you going to afford these costs? The lousy $2 million dirt bike park seems like a drop in the bucket that just from the links I've posted have cost more than $25 million, and another $17 million pending. You could pass a law that says the population can't sue the police, but I think even the Conservative members of the Supreme Court would object.

What we need is a law that states if no law was broken, you cannot sue anybody in a civil court. The stupidity that you can sue somebody who broke no laws is what leads to these ridiculous lawsuits that are sometimes won.

Civil court is where you determine liability. Not criminality. That simple fact keeps escaping you. I'll give you a for example you can relate to. Let's say you are walking to your car in the dark of the night in mean old dangerous Cleveland. There, a scary black guy steps out and shows you his gun in his waistband. You pretend to go for your wallet but pull your pistol out. He sees this and pulls his. You start firing, and he starts firing. You put him down since you have the Dirty Harry signature model pistol. But two of your rounds went stray. They did not hit the target.

The police show up and after beating on any blacks who happened to be there, give the corpse a ticket for littering and decide you were totally justified in shooting the baddie. They even stand and pose with you as you hold the head up of your game kill.

But we mentioned the two stray rounds didn't we? One of those struck Mrs. Herbert Thubwhumper who was pouring herself a cup of coffee in her kitchen. It requires a hip replacement to fix what was damaged.

You broke no laws, but you can be sued, and you would probably lose. It was your bullet that went flying. Now, if you are smart you have some sort of insurance. There are several, the USCCA is just one. I'd give you a link, but if you can't look up insurance well there is no hope for you.

They would suggest that you settle, because if you don't, then it goes to a jury. A jury who is going to hear about how Mrs. Herbert Thubwhumper is in pain all the time since you shot her with your Dirty Harry signature model pistol. The plaintiff's attorney is going to talk about all the less powerful guns you could have chosen, but you went with the baddest one you could find.

The insurance has a limit, and when the jury awards a bazillion dollars to Mrs. Herbert Thubwhumper you have to pay all that is left after the insurance runs out.

The cases that Cleveland settled came to just over 13 million. The ones they fought in court, two of them, came to $17 million. Now, most of us who went to a decent public school see it like this. $13,000,000 < $17,000,000. Now, Cleveland is fighting the $17 Mil, but if they lose they have to pay. Or the Judge will order the city property seized and the assets sold to pay the debt.

Now, before you post a reply about how things ought to be, just remember that Civil is different and not excluded by criminal activity. That's the way it has always been since the nation was founded. Civil court, lawsuits, seek to recover money or property for a wrong or damages. Abraham Lincoln as a lawyer was involved in more than one of these. So while you are decrying how fucked up it is that good cops who beat up people in handcuffs are sued, know that it not only is it not going to change, it shouldn't.

Your scenario is ridiculous. If I accidentally shot somebody, I would be arrested and prosecuted. It's my legal duty to insure that nobody is "downrange" of my target. It's called involuntary manslaughter and if nobody was killed, assault with a deadly weapon.

The problem is even if I shot that scary black man, killed him, his family has the legal right to sue me even though the police investigation ruled it justified. In other words, I did the right thing, I obeyed all laws, I used deadly force to protect my own life, and yet I can get sued anyway.

A more fair comparison is if I seen a house on fire, and a child screaming for help. I bust down the front door and save the child. But then, the parents of the child sues me for breaking down the door. The police would not charge me for the damage or forced entry. It would be perfectly legal considering the circumstance.

Um no. You wouldn't. You were by criminal law taking a reasonable self defense action. This is why police are not charged with murder when they shoot the hostage. Their intent was to shoot the bad guy so that is just fine.

The criminal suing rarely wins. Unless the actions are excessive. So the baddie you shot wouldn't have much of a case.

You refused to look at the cases the city settled. In every one the Department of Justice said the actions of the police were excessive or unjustified. The police did punch and kick a man in handcuffs on the ground. They had every right to catch him. They had every right to use the force necessary to restrain him. They did not have the right. No one has the right to beat up a man who is helpless and defenseless. That is not the actions of caliber defenders of anything. Those are thugs.

The city paid him $600,000 to drop the suit. There would have been at least another zero if it had gone to a jury.

Civil is about liability and damages. It has everything to do with responsibility and nothing to do with criminal activity.

I know this is hard for you to understand. I keep repeating it. It can't be said any more simply. Your cops are thugs and are costing the city a fortune.

 

[JoeB131]

No, wrong again. The American consumer is focused on cheap. We won't support those union jobs you speak of.

Actually, you buy Cheap, Trailer Boy. I look for quality. The thing is, thanks to corporate greed, you want quality, you go German or Japanese.

It wasn't the Republicans, it wasn't big business, it's the American consumer. Businesses cater to their customer demands, and Americans are obsessed with getting the cheapest price.

Well, then the consumer is an idiot. So now instead of having a local gas station that can provide cheap repairs and where your kid might be able to learn a trade, we end up having to take our cars to dealerships where they charge an arm and a leg.

True, modern cars are a lot more complex now than they were in the days of Full Serve.

So here's the problem, In our quest for cheap, we've eliminated the jobs. Capitalism has failed. What's the alternative?

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Actually, you buy Cheap, Trailer Boy. I look for quality. The thing is, thanks to corporate greed, you want quality, you go German or Japanese.

Then you are a minority of the consumer pool. Most people look for price and not quality. Walmart did not become the largest chain in the country because they sell quality. And trust me, we lost some work because of Walmart so I don't sing their praise, it's just that you can't deny reality.

Well, then the consumer is an idiot. So now instead of having a local gas station that can provide cheap repairs and where your kid might be able to learn a trade, we end up having to take our cars to dealerships where they charge an arm and a leg.

True, modern cars are a lot more complex now than they were in the days of Full Serve.

So here's the problem, In our quest for cheap, we've eliminated the jobs. Capitalism has failed. What's the alternative?

Capitalism has not failed, it created the greatest country on earth. Even our so-called poor have it better than many working in the world.

In the mire of blaming Republicans, blaming big business, blaming Ronald Reagan, we forget to point the finger at who's really to blame--the American consumer.

Until we the consumers decide that price isn't everything, then there is no solution to the problem, because companies will continue to produce products cheaper by paying low wages, moving operations overseas, or replacing humans with robots.

What really needs to be done is have a Made in USA sticker on products produced here large enough for people to take notice. We need government to push consumers to buy American like they push for global warming. We need them to run commercials on the importance of buying American instead of running commercials on getting food stamps.

Trump is trying to get that message out, but instead of joining the choir, the Democrats are quick to point out how he has used foreign labor in the past, or had some of his products produced overseas.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Ray, you haven't told me yet how you pay for thos police. You mention the dirt bike park. You really are an idiot. Instead of having the cops chase dirt bikes on the street, a chase that often ends in the bikers getting way, wasting the time of the cops, the idea is to give them a place to play.

Yeah, one place to play in the entire city of Cleveland. You call me an idiot? Did you ever ask yourself how these ghetto people are going to get those bikes to the bike park? Think those lowlifes will tow their two thousand dollar bike trailer with their twenty thousand dollar pickup truck there?

Use your brains for crying out loud!

Inner City Basketball programs gets the kids off the streets where they are going to do something eventually, and into something if not constructive, then at least less destructive.

Oh, basketball programs like Clinton's midnight basketball courts that resulted in three separate shootings?

This is the reality of the situation. The City spent way more paying out on lawsuits than they did on a dirt bike park, and you think that the city wouldn't pay ten times that amount if it went to a jury? For some of those cases, the city would likely just sign over all of it to the victim of police brutality.

Once you show the public you will not fight a lawsuit, you become a target. Ambulance chasers swarm in from everywhere just to get a cut in the payout.

If a police officer is found not to be doing anything illegal, you fight it until the end. Even if it costs more money to fight lawsuits, you set a precedent for those in the future that are looking to cash in.

Finally, the idea that if the cops aren't prosecuted, and convicted, there was no crime is the dumbest argument I've ever heard of in all my long life.

Sorry, but that's the way it works. In any shooting, multiple investigations take place. If the officer broke no laws, no charges are filed. if it's questionable such as the Tamir Rice case, it goes to a grand jury. If the GJ believes an officer broke a law, that officer is charged for the crime per the OP.

What you're saying (as so many liberals do) is that we should prosecute officers even though they didn't break any laws. WTF kind of country do you think we would have if we conducted ourselves with that jungle mentality? How would you like it if a police officer arrested you for having a supped up car, but didn't break any speed limits? If you broke no laws, WTF should you pay any penalty for not breaking any laws?

Cleveland may be dangerous, but again, where do you want the limited resources spent? Chasing some dirt bikes on the street? Or chasing the muggers, robbers, rapists, and murderers? Obviously, to show how intolerant you are on crime, you want hours long pursuits where dirt bikes take over the city center. How many hours would you suggest the police spend chasing dirt bikes on the streets every week?

Well genius, riddle me this: what do you think the parents will do when one of their children gets seriously hurt in that bike park? Think they will just pay the bill and say "oh well, it was my sons fault?" Of course not, there will be lawsuit after lawsuit with kids getting injured or even killed. And when a large enough suit is awarded, they will have to close down that two million dollar park, and then drug addicts and pushers will hang around there.

The city of Cleveland awarded Rice's mother 6 million dollars without the case being heard. The investigations and video showed that the police officers broke no laws. Now add that 2 million dollar bike path money, and we have 8 million dollars we could use to keep our police and maybe upgrade their vehicles.

Those inner city programs work. They reduce crime. Ohio has a massive Opioid crisis, and the Police, and Judges, and Prosecutors are figuring out that just tossing the people into the clink is not the answer. I know, i cn't tell you the time of day without a link to prove it. But for some reason you almost never provide a link, unless you happen to have it handy.

The state of Ohio put an issue on the ballot several years ago which would have allowed first time drug offenders to enter rehab instead of prison. I voted for that measure, but it was beat by a two-to-one margin. So what are police supposed to do about that?

My cousin lost her 28 year old son to dope almost two years ago. It tore her and her husband apart. He was addicted since the age of 15. They tried everything including several rehabs. Nothing worked. I also have a friend who's two sons spent years in prison. When they got out, they went right back to the dope again.

So you tell me, what would work? Rehab doesn't work in many cases. Keeping them away from drugs even for years doesn't work. So what are we supposed to do?

So I ask you again, how are you going to afford these costs? The lousy $2 million dirt bike park seems like a drop in the bucket that just from the links I've posted have cost more than $25 million, and another $17 million pending. You could pass a law that says the population can't sue the police, but I think even the Conservative members of the Supreme Court would object.

What we need is a law that states if no law was broken, you cannot sue anybody in a civil court. The stupidity that you can sue somebody who broke no laws is what leads to these ridiculous lawsuits that are sometimes won.

Civil court is where you determine liability. Not criminality. That simple fact keeps escaping you. I'll give you a for example you can relate to. Let's say you are walking to your car in the dark of the night in mean old dangerous Cleveland. There, a scary black guy steps out and shows you his gun in his waistband. You pretend to go for your wallet but pull your pistol out. He sees this and pulls his. You start firing, and he starts firing. You put him down since you have the Dirty Harry signature model pistol. But two of your rounds went stray. They did not hit the target.

The police show up and after beating on any blacks who happened to be there, give the corpse a ticket for littering and decide you were totally justified in shooting the baddie. They even stand and pose with you as you hold the head up of your game kill.

But we mentioned the two stray rounds didn't we? One of those struck Mrs. Herbert Thubwhumper who was pouring herself a cup of coffee in her kitchen. It requires a hip replacement to fix what was damaged.

You broke no laws, but you can be sued, and you would probably lose. It was your bullet that went flying. Now, if you are smart you have some sort of insurance. There are several, the USCCA is just one. I'd give you a link, but if you can't look up insurance well there is no hope for you.

They would suggest that you settle, because if you don't, then it goes to a jury. A jury who is going to hear about how Mrs. Herbert Thubwhumper is in pain all the time since you shot her with your Dirty Harry signature model pistol. The plaintiff's attorney is going to talk about all the less powerful guns you could have chosen, but you went with the baddest one you could find.

The insurance has a limit, and when the jury awards a bazillion dollars to Mrs. Herbert Thubwhumper you have to pay all that is left after the insurance runs out.

The cases that Cleveland settled came to just over 13 million. The ones they fought in court, two of them, came to $17 million. Now, most of us who went to a decent public school see it like this. $13,000,000 < $17,000,000. Now, Cleveland is fighting the $17 Mil, but if they lose they have to pay. Or the Judge will order the city property seized and the assets sold to pay the debt.

Now, before you post a reply about how things ought to be, just remember that Civil is different and not excluded by criminal activity. That's the way it has always been since the nation was founded. Civil court, lawsuits, seek to recover money or property for a wrong or damages. Abraham Lincoln as a lawyer was involved in more than one of these. So while you are decrying how fucked up it is that good cops who beat up people in handcuffs are sued, know that it not only is it not going to change, it shouldn't.

Your scenario is ridiculous. If I accidentally shot somebody, I would be arrested and prosecuted. It's my legal duty to insure that nobody is "downrange" of my target. It's called involuntary manslaughter and if nobody was killed, assault with a deadly weapon.

The problem is even if I shot that scary black man, killed him, his family has the legal right to sue me even though the police investigation ruled it justified. In other words, I did the right thing, I obeyed all laws, I used deadly force to protect my own life, and yet I can get sued anyway.

A more fair comparison is if I seen a house on fire, and a child screaming for help. I bust down the front door and save the child. But then, the parents of the child sues me for breaking down the door. The police would not charge me for the damage or forced entry. It would be perfectly legal considering the circumstance.

Um no. You wouldn't. You were by criminal law taking a reasonable self defense action. This is why police are not charged with murder when they shoot the hostage. Their intent was to shoot the bad guy so that is just fine.

The criminal suing rarely wins. Unless the actions are excessive. So the baddie you shot wouldn't have much of a case.

You refused to look at the cases the city settled. In every one the Department of Justice said the actions of the police were excessive or unjustified. The police did punch and kick a man in handcuffs on the ground. They had every right to catch him. They had every right to use the force necessary to restrain him. They did not have the right. No one has the right to beat up a man who is helpless and defenseless. That is not the actions of caliber defenders of anything. Those are thugs.

The city paid him $600,000 to drop the suit. There would have been at least another zero if it had gone to a jury.

Civil is about liability and damages. It has everything to do with responsibility and nothing to do with criminal activity.

I know this is hard for you to understand. I keep repeating it. It can't be said any more simply. Your cops are thugs and are costing the city a fortune.

What you posted was from a very liberal site, Cleveland.com. Cleveland.com is an internet extension of the Cleveland Plain Dealer which of course is a very liberal newspaper.

So instead of talking about a bunch of stories (most I've never heard of) why don't you take one at a time, so I can find out what really happened by looking into unbiased sources.

The problem in our country is you can sue for anything. We need a loser pays all system, and that would reduce the amount of phony suits greatly, because anytime a suit is discussed, cities and businesses pay out just to get it out of the way, and that encourages even more phony suits:

Group protesting Michael Brelo verdict settles civil rights suit with city of Cleveland