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Late Night Rambling
Posted by Stephen Green · 19 June 2005
Had lunch on Friday with Ashley Kindergan, a young reporter for Colorado Springs' own Gazette. It's a pretty damn good paper, with a libertarian-leaning editorial page or at least it leaned that way six years ago, the last time I subscribed. Anyway, Ashley was assigned a story on local bloggers, which led to a really fun 90-minute sitdown with yours truly.
There was no drinking involved. We were on Ashley's dime, and she's a young reporter in a smallish city. I didn't know if her pockets are as deep as my liver, and it wouldn't have been gentlemanly to find out.
Naturally, Iraq was one of the topics we discussed. Poor thing. She asked one little question and I went off on an iced-tea fueled rant. I didn't mean to rant, but this one has been a long time coming. Ashley just happened to be in the way when the pressure valve finally let loose. The subject was exit dates.
Last week, there was some hubbub in Congress demanding President Bush announce a firm date for pulling out of Iraq. Announcing an exit date would be dumber than using a taffy puller to epilate your scrotum.
Granted, an exit date would have one positive effect: There would be an immediate and sustained reduction in terror attacks. Right up until the day we left. Let me explain.
Wars aren't won by killing every single bad guy. Even at the end of World War Two, there were still plenty of Nazis around. Rather, wars are generally won in one of two ways:
1. By completely eliminating the enemy's ability to resist.
2. By convincing the enemy that he's beaten.
For brevity's sake, we'll call these two routes "Means" and "Will." In the first option, the enemy's means of fighting are taken away from him. In the second, it's his will to fight that you take away.
For reasons discussed during another war two years ago, the first option just ain't gonna happen in Iraq. Could we make it so that Iraq's "insurgents" lost their Means? Well, yes. But doing so would entail the kind of destruction we haven't seen since WWII and in a circle of nations around Iraq, not merely in Iraq itself. While the outcome would be desirable, the method (probably nuclear) would haunt us for years to come. So right now, let's take Means off the table.
All we're left with is the Will making sure the enemy loses his will to fight us.
I'm not certain how you take the Will away from people who take their inspiration from God but I'm pretty sure that, eventually, killing enough of them in large enough numbers would do the trick. Do we have enough soldiers on the ground to do the job? Do we, as a people, have the political will? Will the Iraqi forces evolve quickly enough to help us in this vital task? Can all this be done without completely alienating the Iraqi people?
I don't have the answers to those questions. Neither do you. History will decide. The best we can do is maintain our will, and keep the pressure on our leadership to do what must be done. And in the meantime, we should all support the hell our of our troops which means we should, at the very least, refrain from accusing them of Nazi atrocities.
But here's what I do know.
It's for damn sure you won't sap the enemies will by telling him exactly how long to keep his head down. If we announce an exit date of six months or a year from now or even in five years or a century then we'll already have lost. An exit date is a signal of retreat. An exit date says, "We've given up. Just keep quiet until we're gone, and then the place will be all yours."
The best case we could hope for would be a new Iraqi strongman to keep a lid on the place Saddam Lite, if you will. The worst case: A Baathist/Qaeda condominium the Taliban with Soviet-scale repression and petrodollars.
For our sake and Iraq's, we have to be in this for the long haul. Announcing an exit date would tell our enemies we were never really in it to begin with.
Kathianne said:The whole topic is stupid, yet the left keeps at it. Links at site, but I'll tell ya, anyone with a lick of common sense, gets the point.
http://vodkapundit.com/archives/007899.php
theim said:I don't even understand why we NEED an exit yet. The war is going stupendously. The WOT has been going on longer than American involvement in WWII and less than 2000 have been killed, which is less than one battle 60 years ago.
Kathianne said:The whole topic is stupid, yet the left keeps at it. Links at site, but I'll tell ya, anyone with a lick of common sense, gets the point.
http://vodkapundit.com/archives/007899.php
Again, do you think we should just pull out? Give them a date to hold out for? What?zigomanis18 said:Again, this is easy for you to say. tell this to the troops that are on their third deployment like myself. It is always easy to say things when you are not actually doing it
zigomanis18 said:Again, this is easy for you to say. tell this to the troops that are on their third deployment like myself. It is always easy to say things when you are not actually doing it
GunnyL said:You suck it up and finish the job, regardless how long it takes. If you can't, just convince the Commandant to let us "old folks" put our utilities back on and we'll show you how it's done.
zigomanis18 said:Thak you for your arrogance gentlemen, but there is NO need for it. I will be there in October for the third time, I have done 21 years and counting of honorable service, and so therefore I CAN talk. I simply cannot stand those who say " you joined so suck it up" Tell that to brave vietnam soldiers who are shell shocked for NOTHING! Tell this to Mr. Bush who never went anywhere. It is easy for those staying at home to wave the flag and talk sh-t, because most who do have never gonme to war. Now Gunny, I'm sure you probably have, so I give you an alibi, but many others on this post have not and therefore should not be telling ME what I SHOULD DO!
I have seen many reserve soldiers I serve with lives destroyed because of extended deployments and lies told to them by their military superiors. I have seen the full tilt panic the administration is putting of recrutiers to the point where recruiting is becoming a flat out evil venture. We all have heard about the recent recruiting scandal. Well, I can tell you that many of us really don't blame the recrutiers because they are burdened with so much pressure and degridation from their superiors that they will do anything to get numbers and keep the heat off their back. IT didn't have to be this way had the planning for this war had been better. But, I have already gone into that in another post. All I can say is shame on Mr. Rumsfeld for ignoring General Shinseski's advice prior to the invasion of Iraq. Now, because of faulty planning, of which many top military brass will admit to if not on the record but off it, the full brunt ( as always ) and the full payment is once again taken by the troops. And, because the american troops are the BEST in the world, we will take it I assure you that much. But forgive me for speaking out because I see alot of corruption on the "other side" and I speak out ONLY because I love my troops and feel they are often the "giunea pig" for washington's screw-ups.
The last thing I want to hear is some country music buffon belting out schmoozy lame patriotic songs when they haven't and never will go anywhere!
21 years and counting!
GunnyL said:You suck it up and finish the job, regardless how long it takes. If you can't, just convince the Commandant to let us "old folks" put our utilities back on and we'll show you how it's done.
:coffee3:
zigomanis18 said:Again, this is easy for you to say. tell this to the troops that are on their third deployment like myself. It is always easy to say things when you are not actually doing it
zigomanis18 said:Thak you for your arrogance gentlemen, but there is NO need for it. I will be there in October for the third time, I have done 21 years and counting of honorable service, and so therefore I CAN talk. I simply cannot stand those who say " you joined so suck it up" Tell that to brave vietnam soldiers who are shell shocked for NOTHING! Tell this to Mr. Bush who never went anywhere. It is easy for those staying at home to wave the flag and talk sh-t, because most who do have never gonme to war. Now Gunny, I'm sure you probably have, so I give you an alibi, but many others on this post have not and therefore should not be telling ME what I SHOULD DO!
I have seen many reserve soldiers I serve with lives destroyed because of extended deployments and lies told to them by their military superiors. I have seen the full tilt panic the administration is putting of recrutiers to the point where recruiting is becoming a flat out evil venture. We all have heard about the recent recruiting scandal. Well, I can tell you that many of us really don't blame the recrutiers because they are burdened with so much pressure and degridation from their superiors that they will do anything to get numbers and keep the heat off their back. IT didn't have to be this way had the planning for this war had been better. But, I have already gone into that in another post. All I can say is shame on Mr. Rumsfeld for ignoring General Shinseski's advice prior to the invasion of Iraq. Now, because of faulty planning, of which many top military brass will admit to if not on the record but off it, the full brunt ( as always ) and the full payment is once again taken by the troops. And, because the american troops are the BEST in the world, we will take it I assure you that much. But forgive me for speaking out because I see alot of corruption on the "other side" and I speak out ONLY because I love my troops and feel they are often the "giunea pig" for washington's screw-ups.
The last thing I want to hear is some country music buffon belting out schmoozy lame patriotic songs when they haven't and never will go anywhere!
21 years and counting!
dilloduck said:I don't think we do either but the left needs talking points so now we have "exit strategies", Gitmo, and how terrible religion is. Just rhetoric until some new bs happens.
Unlike Vietnam, there are alternatives:Bonnie said:Because the left is setting up a Vietnam type mantra using Gitmo and the war to win back some seats in 06. Which again illustrates how little they care for this country and how much they care for their own political asses.
Kathianne said:
Kathianne said:The alternative media, yes. What were you referring to? There was an exit strategy, flawed in aspects.
The Office of Reconstruction and Humanitarian Assistance is charged with establishing links with the United Nations specialized agencies and with non-governmental organizations that will play a role in post-war Iraq. It will reach out also to the counterpart offices in the governments of coalition countries, and, in coordination with the Presidents Special Envoy to the Free Iraqis, to the various Free Iraqi groups.
The immediate responsibility for administering post-war Iraq will fall upon the Commander of the U.S. Central Command, as the commander of the U.S. and coalition forces in the field. The purpose of the Office of Reconstruction and Humanitarian Assistance is to develop the detailed plans that he and his subordinates will draw on in meeting these responsibilities.
Various parts of the government have done a great deal of work on aspects of post-war planning for months now. Several planning efforts are underway.
Feith went on to list various agencies and task groups, along with their responsibilities in the postwar planning. You can read the full statement here.
