Why is the West pretending Iran is winning the war against Israel, the US?

[mudwhistle]

Yep; that’s what we did.

However on the flip side you’re saying that anyone who is “provoked” can bomb the shit out of the other guy? So you must have been a fan of the 10/7 attack by HAMAS, right?

One could argue they were provoked too.

No but you sure as sh!t are.

Provoked? Give me a ******* break. We both know this about you....you’re a racist whose only outlet in life is this board. It’s basically your life.

How many times did you decry the “provocation” of Iran in the first 2 months of this year (before our unwarranted attack)? Once. One god-damned time you mentioned the word Iran. And that was to ***** about a 47 year old attack on our embassy. An attack so egregious that the blob didn’t mention it during his first term much less attack them.

You’re head is so far up your ass that you cough up dandruff.

Jesus....you're really confused.

I spent over 35 years in the federal service, active-duty and civilian.

I personally spent time in combat fighting proxy elements of Iran and training their neighbors.

I think the best way to find out about Iran is talk to the people who live in that region and have had to put up with their crap most of their lives. Most IEDs that killed are troops were either built by Iran or trained the people who planted them in Iraq and Afghanistan. Iranians trained Somalis how to shoot down our Blackhawks in Mogadishu. I saw the intel briefs myself.

I don't need a lecture from a dirtbag that probably never left the continental United States, much less spent time in the region.

If you say that we weren't provoked it's because you've been watching too many late night comedians.

"Iran utilizes a "Axis of Resistance" network of proxies to advance its regional interests and project power without direct involvement, primarily supporting Shiite militias in Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, Yemen, and Sunni groups like Hamas in Gaza. Key proxies include Hezbollah (Lebanon), the Houthis (Yemen), and several Iraqi militias, which have surged attacks against U.S. and Israeli targets since Oct 2023.
Key Iranian Proxy Groups

• Hezbollah (Lebanon): Considered Iran's most potent and oldest proxy, heavily involved in regional operations.
• Houthis (Ansar Allah, Yemen):Engaged in attacking international shipping in the Red Sea and Saudi Arabia, heavily supported by Iran
  .
  • Hamas (Gaza): Sunni group supported by Iran with funding and weapons, heavily engaged in conflict with Israel.
  • Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ): A top recipient of Iranian funding and training in Gaza and the West Bank.
  • Iraqi Militias (Popular Mobilization Forces - PMF):
    • Kataib Hezbollah: Trained and armed by the IRGC to target U.S. forces.
    • Asaib Ahl al Haq: A designated Iraqi proxy engaged in regional activities.
    • Harakat Hezbollah al Nujaba: Active in Iraq and supporting the Assad regime in Syria.
  • Syria/Regional Militias:
    • Fatemiyoun Division: Afghan Shia militia, largely used in Syria.
    • Zaynabiyoun Brigade: Pakistani Shia militia working for Iran.
  • Bahraini Militias: Saraya al-Ashtar and Saraya al-Mukhtar, aiming to undermine the Bahraini government.

Key Network Features

• Ideological Alignment: Most groups are aligned with Iran's "Shiite crescent" ideology, though it includes Sunni partners.
• Support Mechanisms: Iran provides advanced weapons (drones, missiles), financial funding, and strategic training through the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC).
• Current Status: While Hezbollah and Hamas have been strained by recent conflicts, the network, particularly the Houthis and Iraqi groups, remains active, according to reports from. "

 

[Greenbeard]

We just spent $200 billion and lost more than a dozen American lives to get Iran to open a strait—with new tolls—that wasn’t closed before Trump started this war.

My bad, the strait is closed again.

 

[Doc7505]

Yes, until... Hitler committed suicide and Germany accepted unconditional surrender. Which was the declared wargoal. Until... Japan accepted unconditional surrender and was subsequently administratively ruled by McCarthur again achieving the stated wargoal. Until Lee surrendered and the Union was restored. THE STATED WARGOAL.

If the wargoal in Iran is regime change and that wargoal isn't reached you sure as hell didn't win.

Now to the general commentary to your OP.

We have to split the question into 2 first. Did Iran win vis a vis Israel, add did it win vis a vis the US which in my opinion are 2 different answers.

And to answer that question we have to first determine what the wargoals where (hard to do when the people who started the war have given about 6 different answers) and wether or not ending it now under the proposed conditions achieves those goals. Or

So let's start with Israel. What did they wanted to achieve and did they achieve it? Well Israel would have liked regime change. So that's a no, but they also wanted to hit Iran's military capability both conventional and nuclear. That's been achieved at least in the short and medium turn. They also got a convinient excuse to take parts of Lebanon and weaken their government. They lost some money, took a neglible amount of damage and a spike in oil and gas prices and increased inflation caused by the supply disruption. What Iran got is their current government still in power and probably in my opinion the abilty to derive long term income from controlling the straight. This will in the long term increase their economic prospects.

Did they win vis a vis the US. Well, if the goal was regime change then yes. If the goal was developing nukes. I thinkthat's completely up in the air.

See, here's the issue. Trump's constant TACO'ing says a great deal about how far he is willing to go and where the limits of his and the US power are. Before he started it, there was ambigiuty to those things Trump has ended that.

It showed that when push comes to shove the US can bomb whatever, whenever.

But it also showed that Iran can keep the straight shut down if they so please despite all the bombing, and that Trump doesn't have the political will to prevent that. What I mean by that is that it would take ground forces, a lot of ground forces in an indefinite deployment. Something Trump is unwilling to do.

So not only didn't the US achieve amy wargoal stated or otherwise. But it cleared up strategic ambiguity over what the US and Trump could do amd would do, it likely will improve the Iranian regime's hold on power and long term economic outlook.

<~~~~~~~~~~>
The primary logic in this operation was to permanently stop Iran from building a nuclear bomb by refining uranium. Second, the goal was to stop the manufacture of missiles, Shahed drones and Iran's military complex. The third and last is the free passage through the Hormuz straits.
I'm not happy about the facts that we will be debating the free passage through the straits.
As it is Iran has agreed to a cease fire although they've already violated the agreement by sending missiles into their once allies in the region including sending cluster bomb missiles into Israel.

 

[toobfreak]

The "reality" is, is that the US started a conflict without so much as a heads up.

Oh no! You needed a heads up! What, so you could better prepare?

It's the ******* arrogance that makes not just Europe but the entire world mad.

Poor baby. Maybe that is just tough toenails for the EU like UK, Spain and France who combined don't have enough Navy to sink a battleship in my grandmother's bubblebath. Sorry Honey, we don't need to ask Europe's opinion since they've made it clear they don't value ours.

Let me give you an example. The price for diesel in Belgium has gone up from around 6 euro per gallon to 10. I'll repeat 10 EURO.

I don't see no Belgiums down helping out nowhere around the Persian Gulf neither, so I guess they will take what they get.

See, while the US, thanks to the shale revolution they have some insulation from the global market, most other countries don't. This will cause inflation on everything and I fear it will be massive inflation.

Too bad then that none of these countries did jack about Iran these past 50 years.

So my question is this. If Europe would do something lile that to the US would you applaud?

Better question, if Europe COULD do anything like that, then where the hell have they been these past 5 weeks helping out down in the Gulf? Funny, I predicted the attack on Iran to within a few hours on the right day, amazing I knew it was coming weeks before but the EU all had their heads in the sand too busy bad-mouthing the USA.

 

[GLASNOST]

<~~~~~~~~~~>
The primary logic in this operation was to permanently stop Iran from building a nuclear bomb by refining uranium. Second, the goal was to stop the manufacture of missiles, Shahed drones and Iran's military complex. The third and last is the free passage through the Hormuz straits.
.....

You are so full of crap. You don't understand anything at all about it.

 

[mudwhistle]

My bad, the strait is closed again.

At least you hope it is.

You Dipshits cannot afford for Trump to be perceived to have a victory.

 

[mudwhistle]

You are so full of crap. You don't understand anything at all about it.

Why don't you try explaining what he doesn't understand.

Maybe providing a link that proves he doesn't understand......and not something from the Daiy Kos.

 

[schmidlap]

We just spent $200 billion and lost more than a dozen American lives to get Iran to open a strait—with new tolls—that wasn’t closed before Trump started this war.

The same, repressive, ultra-conservative regime will remain in power, in control of the Strait of Hormuz, and in possession of its stock of enriched uranium, its centrifuges for enriching more uranium, and its parts for more centrifuges.

They'll pay off the hysteric who threatened Iran's destruction with a percentage of the protection money they'll now charge.

Trump will call it a victory.

And so it goes.

Iran closes Strait of Hormuz over Israeli barrage in Lebanon

Trump's bottom line?

"Big money will be made."​

 

[Greenbeard]

At least you hope it is.

You Dipshits cannot afford for Trump to be perceived to have a victory.

Nobody perceives this fiasco as a victory for the United States. Huge fuckup.

 

[mudwhistle]

Nobody perceives this fiasco as a victory for the United States. Huge fuckup.

Of course with such a shitty attitude the only thing you can perceive is shit.

Please show me your proof that it's such a tremendous goatfuck. And I don't want to see opinions. I want facts on the ground.

 

[Lockback]

Nobody perceives this fiasco as a victory for the United States. Huge fuckup.

You're representative of the Loser Mentality.
You would have hated D-Day and been rooting for America to quit.
Disgusting.

 

[Lockback]

Of course with such a shitty attitude the only thing you can perceive is shit.

Please show me your proof that it's such a tremendous goatfuck. And I don't want to see opinions. I want facts on the ground.

It's unbelievable.
It's like them saying, "The sun rises in the West! Why don't you see that??"
They're batshit nuts.

 

[Greenbeard]

You're representative of the Loser Mentality.
You would have hated D-Day and been rooting for America to quit.
Disgusting.

Comparing starting and losing a war to Iran to D-Day is deranged.

 

[Lockback]

Comparing starting and losing a war to Iran to D-Day is deranged.

I'm not the one who's deranged, IDIOT.

 

[mudwhistle]