Debate Now Why Is Being "Politically Correct" A Bad Thing To Some People?

[Asclepias]

I tried to compose a response to your OP but couldn't because coming up with 'examples' would immediately put me in the politically incorrect category. Even saying PC has gone too far is condemned. It does hamper free self-expression at times, though if we've cut down on condoning intolerance by using PC, I guess it's better than the alternative.

Saying PC has gone to far is not condemned. Its merely your opinion masquerading as a fact. I have no problem with someone saying that. What I am trying to figure out is how do you expect to communicate if you dont observe the rules and goals of communication?

Because YOU are the one unilaterally changing the rules

Asking you not to use a term is not changing anything. Its asking you to change something.

 

[Correll]

In my experience, I have constantly seen the "offenders" being willing and able to continue discussion the topic but unable to get the offended person to discuss it any more, as they are now focused on personally attacking the alleged offender.

That only occurs when the offender doesnt correct their mistake which shuts down communication.

Who says there was a mistake?

The claim of offense is a tactic, a way of shutting down a line of debate that is not going to the "offendees" way.

Your assumption that there is a real offense is unsupported.

And furthermore the idea itself is often considered the offense, so there is NO POSSIBLE WAY to continue to discuss the idea under the rules of Political Correctness.

The offended person said your actions were a mistake.

Thats a silly claim.

There is no assumption the offense is real. Undoubtedly it was offensive or the person wouldnt say it was.

The person could be dishonest.

Or could be honestly offended and still purposefully using Political Correctness to suppress arguments they have no honest answer for.

If you think they are dishonest why are you talking to them then? That highly irrational.

Because they are half the political divide and growing. Ignoring them is not an option.

 

[Bonzi]

Okay I'll give an example of political incorrectness said out of ignorance. This is a true story and I make this "faux pas" myself.....

At work, I was talking to my boss (this was about 20 some years ago) anyway, I bought a car and was telling him about it and said I "Jew-ed them down" on the price. Well, I never really thought about the derivation of that statement, it was just something I had heard and knew what it meant in context (negotiating a price down) - and my boss was like "please be careful using that expression" (because in my job, I was in communication with several Jewish business men, mostly lawyer and bankers) -

My intent was not to be offensive to Jewish people and I wasn't really even aware of it.
I can understand how people might find it disrespectful, but I think only very immature and insecure people are going to get bent out of shape over it, unless it's said in a hateful way.....

 

[Asclepias]

Only dumb people. If my aim is to actually communicate I want to keep the lines of communication open.

Cool---then never ask me to use PC words.

Why would I want you to use words that create a barrier to communication?

Why would I kiss your ass in order to tell you something ?

Because you are trying to tell me something and you wouldnt want to waste your time. Or would you?

If you need him to kiss your ass before your able or willing to listen, the problem is you.

Could be but that doesnt make me hear your message. So you have failed in getting your point across.

 

[Bonzi]

d

I've seen many times on this board the term "politically correct" being used in derogatory manner. It baffles me to be honest. What is it that would make being politically correct something to frown upon as opposed to a tool to further communication?

Rules:

1. No off topic comments. Please address the question.
2. Be able to prove your position using common sense. No links

I think the issue comes where people want to be able to speak plainly as they ordinarily would and that some things the don't believe to be offensive, seems "over board" and "controlling" --- like you MUST phrase it a certain way - why? Not everything that is deemed a "politically correct" statement is necessarily offensive.

You can be quite offensive being politically correct as well. So you are not really cutting out offenses.
You are just masking them better.

In masking them better you are keeping the lines of communication open and able to delve into the issues.

More like, you can stab someone directly, or do it nicely and twist it.
Only someone ignorant would let it go - a smart person would recognize the offense and take just as much offense as if you said it in a non-politically correct way.

If the end game is to have constructive conversation, mature people should be able to see through politically incorrect expressions and get the gist of what they are saying. Ignorant people have a right to speak and sometimes have good ideas, they just are ignorant in how they talk.

Trying to come up with an example.....

Most people dont understand diplomacy. Not everyone is mature (or what you consider mature). If I refuse to let you define me as a dodo head does that make me immature? I submit the answer to that is no. Before we can have a conversation then you must acknowledge me as an equal. I believe too many people lack that basic leadership skill.

If you are mature, you know that no one can define you.
You can't control how others think and feel, and making them change the way they talk won't change that either.
It will just make it easier on the people that get easily offended and worry to much about what others think.

 

[dilloduck]

I tried to compose a response to your OP but couldn't because coming up with 'examples' would immediately put me in the politically incorrect category. Even saying PC has gone too far is condemned. It does hamper free self-expression at times, though if we've cut down on condoning intolerance by using PC, I guess it's better than the alternative.

Saying PC has gone to far is not condemned. Its merely your opinion masquerading as a fact. I have no problem with someone saying that. What I am trying to figure out is how do you expect to communicate if you dont observe the rules and goals of communication?

Because YOU are the one unilaterally changing the rules

Asking you not to use a term is not changing anything. Its asking you to change something.

I know-----why do I have to change what I do to talk to you ? Are you special ?

 

[Asclepias]

That only occurs when the offender doesnt correct their mistake which shuts down communication.

Who says there was a mistake?

The claim of offense is a tactic, a way of shutting down a line of debate that is not going to the "offendees" way.

Your assumption that there is a real offense is unsupported.

And furthermore the idea itself is often considered the offense, so there is NO POSSIBLE WAY to continue to discuss the idea under the rules of Political Correctness.

The offended person said your actions were a mistake.

Thats a silly claim.

There is no assumption the offense is real. Undoubtedly it was offensive or the person wouldnt say it was.

The person could be dishonest.

Or could be honestly offended and still purposefully using Political Correctness to suppress arguments they have no honest answer for.

If you think they are dishonest why are you talking to them then? That highly irrational.

Because they are half the political divide and growing. Ignoring them is not an option.

Ignoring them is better than making them more of a problem right? Of course this is all based on your refusal to find a way to communicate effectively.

 

[OldLady]

I tried to compose a response to your OP but couldn't because coming up with 'examples' would immediately put me in the politically incorrect category. Even saying PC has gone too far is condemned. It does hamper free self-expression at times, though if we've cut down on condoning intolerance by using PC, I guess it's better than the alternative.

Saying PC has gone to far is not condemned. Its merely your opinion masquerading as a fact. I have no problem with someone saying that. What I am trying to figure out is how do you expect to communicate if you dont observe the rules and goals of communication?

Can't say. You've confused me. I'll leave this thread to those who understand what you're talking about.

 

[Correll]

Okay I'll give an example of political incorrectness said out of ignorance. This is a true story and I make this "faux pas" myself.....

At work, I was talking to my boss (this was about 20 some years ago) anyway, I bought a car and was telling him about it and said I "Jew-ed them down" on the price. Well, I never really thought about the derivation of that statement, it was just something I hard heard and knew what it mean (negotiating a price down) - and my boss was like "please be careful using that expression" (because in my job, I was in communication with several Jewish business men, mostly lawyer and bankers) -

My intent was not to be offensive to Jewish people and I wasn't really even aware of it.
I can understand how people might find it disrespectful, but I think only very immature and insecure people are going to get bent out of shape over it, unless it's said in a hateful way.....

That is a very minor example.

It would be a better example if instead of just warning you, your boss then choose to decide you were lying when you said you were not trying to be offensive and sent you to diversity training, and gave the teacher of the "class" a warning that you needed special attention.

 

[emilynghiem]

Examples are best to work with - like what is an example of something that would be said that is politically INCORRECT that would be a barrier to discussion?

* if both speakers have to profess belief in Christ Jesus before they can agree they are talking about the same truth and not some "false prophet/interpretation" of truth

* if both sides have to profess faith in "global warming" before they can discuss conservation and cleaning up pollution

I run into nontheists all the time who find references to God and Christianity, even creation, as barriers to being able to talk rationally in a way that makes sense or feels safe to them. Likewise I have friends who can only think of monkeys turning into men at the sound of the word "evolution" and cannot discuss this seriously because of deep rooted associations with that word. the arguments go nowhere but get stuck on attacking people over words that the other side objects to because they mean things that don't exist and have no rationale for discussion.

I find conservatives already go off on def con level 4, 5, or 10 at the word global warming or gun control
and can't have a conversation if someone keeps pushing that agenda in their faces.

 

[dilloduck]

Why would I kiss your ass in order to tell you something ?

Because you are trying to tell me something and you wouldnt want to waste your time. Or would you?

That's what we are approaching. There is no point in me trying to tell you something if I have to kiss your ass in order to do so.

So you admit that you being able to talk at me is more important than me getting your point?

No----I am saying that if you insist on me using YOUR vocabulary you will not hear from me. I don't require YOU to speak MY vocabulary. What is so special about you ?

So you are saying that you wont get your point across then? Yes you are requiring me to speak your vocabulary. Thats why I was offended in the first place. Your vocabulary offended me and instead of changing your vocabulary you decided youd rather not communicate right?

Why bother to continue to communicate when someone has tuned you out ? You're not that damn important.

 

[Asclepias]

Okay I'll give an example of political incorrectness said out of ignorance. This is a true story and I make this "faux pas" myself.....

At work, I was talking to my boss (this was about 20 some years ago) anyway, I bought a car and was telling him about it and said I "Jew-ed them down" on the price. Well, I never really thought about the derivation of that statement, it was just something I had heard and knew what it meant in context (negotiating a price down) - and my boss was like "please be careful using that expression" (because in my job, I was in communication with several Jewish business men, mostly lawyer and bankers) -

My intent was not to be offensive to Jewish people and I wasn't really even aware of it.
I can understand how people might find it disrespectful, but I think only very immature and insecure people are going to get bent out of shape over it, unless it's said in a hateful way.....

But you are basing that on your assumption of what is immature or insecure right? They may believe your use of the term is immature. hateful, insecure, etc. What makes you the definer for other people? What makes you right in your evaluation?

 

[Ravi]

Examples are best to work with - like what is an example of something that would be said that is politically INCORRECT that would be a barrier to discussion?

"All black people are thugs"

 

[Asclepias]

Because you are trying to tell me something and you wouldnt want to waste your time. Or would you?

That's what we are approaching. There is no point in me trying to tell you something if I have to kiss your ass in order to do so.

So you admit that you being able to talk at me is more important than me getting your point?

No----I am saying that if you insist on me using YOUR vocabulary you will not hear from me. I don't require YOU to speak MY vocabulary. What is so special about you ?

So you are saying that you wont get your point across then? Yes you are requiring me to speak your vocabulary. Thats why I was offended in the first place. Your vocabulary offended me and instead of changing your vocabulary you decided youd rather not communicate right?

Why bother to continue to communicate when someone has tuned you out ? You're not that damn important.

I must have been important. You tried to communicate with me and because you wanted to use certain terms and that was more important to you than actually communicating you failed in your initial goal.

 

[Correll]

Who says there was a mistake?

The claim of offense is a tactic, a way of shutting down a line of debate that is not going to the "offendees" way.

Your assumption that there is a real offense is unsupported.

And furthermore the idea itself is often considered the offense, so there is NO POSSIBLE WAY to continue to discuss the idea under the rules of Political Correctness.

The offended person said your actions were a mistake.

Thats a silly claim.

There is no assumption the offense is real. Undoubtedly it was offensive or the person wouldnt say it was.

The person could be dishonest.

Or could be honestly offended and still purposefully using Political Correctness to suppress arguments they have no honest answer for.

If you think they are dishonest why are you talking to them then? That highly irrational.

Because they are half the political divide and growing. Ignoring them is not an option.

Ignoring them is better than making them more of a problem right? Of course this is all based on your refusal to find a way to communicate effectively.

Wrong on all counts.

1. It is not my job to find a way to communicate with them. If they are engaging is debate it is on them to be ready for normal discourse.

2. I am not refusing to find a way to communicate. I am constantly working to improve my communication skills. They are choosing to avoid the topic by launching a hissy fit/personal attacks.

3. Nothing I am doing is making them more of a problem. They are choosing to attack me instead of discussing the topic.

 

[dilloduck]

Who says there was a mistake?

The claim of offense is a tactic, a way of shutting down a line of debate that is not going to the "offendees" way.

Your assumption that there is a real offense is unsupported.

And furthermore the idea itself is often considered the offense, so there is NO POSSIBLE WAY to continue to discuss the idea under the rules of Political Correctness.

The offended person said your actions were a mistake.

Thats a silly claim.

There is no assumption the offense is real. Undoubtedly it was offensive or the person wouldnt say it was.

The person could be dishonest.

Or could be honestly offended and still purposefully using Political Correctness to suppress arguments they have no honest answer for.

If you think they are dishonest why are you talking to them then? That highly irrational.

Because they are half the political divide and growing. Ignoring them is not an option.

Ignoring them is better than making them more of a problem right? Of course this is all based on your refusal to find a way to communicate effectively.

I am willing to listen to you without censoring your free speech. You however are unwilling to do the same.

 

[emilynghiem]

I tried to compose a response to your OP but couldn't because coming up with 'examples' would immediately put me in the politically incorrect category. Even saying PC has gone too far is condemned. It does hamper free self-expression at times, though if we've cut down on condoning intolerance by using PC, I guess it's better than the alternative.

Dear OldLady please do not give up, please jump back in if someone posts something that answers the questions you were worried you couldn't answer.

Asclepias IS trying to hear the objections without "condemning" anyone.
He WANTS free speech here, but not the distracting kind, he wants to stick to the topics.
He isn't policing on expression, but wants us to stick to the issues and not drift off topic.

You are right, others may use PC as a trap, but Asclepias is sincere

I posted some examples of where the words used can get so volatile, they become a barrier.
These are common examples, will those work for you?

Do you agree that BOTH sides should be equally respected when we say the
approach or words of the other side is a barrier to us? That the problem is the "PC process"
should be two sided and equal exchange and criticism/correction, not onesided.
Does that help?

 

[Correll]

Examples are best to work with - like what is an example of something that would be said that is politically INCORRECT that would be a barrier to discussion?

"All black people are thugs"

That is not Politically Incorrect. That is racist.

A better example would be to call a Black Thug a BLack Thug.

The term "black thug" is POlitically Incorrect, regardless of whether it is true or not.

Using the term itself, or even the idea is taboo.

 

[Asclepias]

d

I've seen many times on this board the term "politically correct" being used in derogatory manner. It baffles me to be honest. What is it that would make being politically correct something to frown upon as opposed to a tool to further communication?

Rules:

1. No off topic comments. Please address the question.
2. Be able to prove your position using common sense. No links

I think the issue comes where people want to be able to speak plainly as they ordinarily would and that some things the don't believe to be offensive, seems "over board" and "controlling" --- like you MUST phrase it a certain way - why? Not everything that is deemed a "politically correct" statement is necessarily offensive.

You can be quite offensive being politically correct as well. So you are not really cutting out offenses.
You are just masking them better.

In masking them better you are keeping the lines of communication open and able to delve into the issues.

More like, you can stab someone directly, or do it nicely and twist it.
Only someone ignorant would let it go - a smart person would recognize the offense and take just as much offense as if you said it in a non-politically correct way.

If the end game is to have constructive conversation, mature people should be able to see through politically incorrect expressions and get the gist of what they are saying. Ignorant people have a right to speak and sometimes have good ideas, they just are ignorant in how they talk.

Trying to come up with an example.....

Most people dont understand diplomacy. Not everyone is mature (or what you consider mature). If I refuse to let you define me as a dodo head does that make me immature? I submit the answer to that is no. Before we can have a conversation then you must acknowledge me as an equal. I believe too many people lack that basic leadership skill.

If you are mature, you know that no one can define you.
You can't control how others think and feel, and making them change the way they talk won't change that either.
It will just make it easier on the people that get easily offended and worry to much about what others think.

Thats an opinion but lets say its true. What does that have to do with keeping someone from attempting to define you? Now instead of listening to you I have moved to making sure you know that I wont tolerate you attempting to define me. Now your goal of attempting to communicate with me just failed.

 

[Correll]

Cool---then never ask me to use PC words.

Why would I want you to use words that create a barrier to communication?

Why would I kiss your ass in order to tell you something ?

Because you are trying to tell me something and you wouldnt want to waste your time. Or would you?

If you need him to kiss your ass before your able or willing to listen, the problem is you.

Could be but that doesnt make me hear your message. So you have failed in getting your point across.

If you close your mind and refuse to listen it is no failure of mine.