Why In Hell Are These Creeps Still Alive ?

[WinterBorn]

Proving again your desire to kill. You lower yourself to their level.

Put them away for life in secure conditions where they cannot order contract killings or kill other inmates: solitary confinement if need be. There is no reason for the State, which represents the public, to be a killer. It lowers all of us to the level of the murderer.

Exactly.
100% correct.

Sorry to rain on your parade, but it might have been correct, except for the JUSTICE factor and the CAPABILITY level of the prison system to accomplish these things. So far they haven't proven themselves to that degree, and even if they could get to that level, the whole thing crumbles because of one nagging factor that will always (unfortunately) be around >> CORRUPTION (which is especially problematic in cases of killers who have large amounts of money)

So it seems as if the only way you agree to stop the executions is if the prison system can guarantee that they will never be able to commit another crime, and the innocent population will be guaranteed 100% safe.

And yet, I posted a link to a study that shows that almost 10,000 people a year are wrongfully convicted of serious crimes. How many of those would you see executed before you consider capital punishment wrong?

 

[DriftingSand]

Exactly.
100% correct.

Sorry to rain on your parade, but it might have been correct, except for the JUSTICE factor and the CAPABILITY level of the prison system to accomplish these things. So far they haven't proven themselves to that degree, and even if they could get to that level, the whole thing crumbles because of one nagging factor that will always (unfortunately) be around >> CORRUPTION (which is especially problematic in cases of killers who have large amounts of money)

So it seems as if the only way you agree to stop the executions is if the prison system can guarantee that they will never be able to commit another crime, and the innocent population will be guaranteed 100% safe.

And yet, I posted a link to a study that shows that almost 10,000 people a year are wrongfully convicted of serious crimes. How many of those would you see executed before you consider capital punishment wrong?

Of the 10,000 "wrongfully convicted" how many are put to death?

It's my opinion that a sadistic murderer should be put to death for the benefit of society and the victim's family. It also sends a message to other would-be criminals. It probably wouldn't hinder many of them from committing crimes anyway but it may hinder some who are pondering committing a heinous crime.

Whatever the case may be, a person who is willing to take another person's life has announced to the world that life means nothing to him; thus, he forfeits his own. I do agree that the death penalty should only be meted out to them who are found guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt.

 

[WinterBorn]

Sorry to rain on your parade, but it might have been correct, except for the JUSTICE factor and the CAPABILITY level of the prison system to accomplish these things. So far they haven't proven themselves to that degree, and even if they could get to that level, the whole thing crumbles because of one nagging factor that will always (unfortunately) be around >> CORRUPTION (which is especially problematic in cases of killers who have large amounts of money)

So it seems as if the only way you agree to stop the executions is if the prison system can guarantee that they will never be able to commit another crime, and the innocent population will be guaranteed 100% safe.

And yet, I posted a link to a study that shows that almost 10,000 people a year are wrongfully convicted of serious crimes. How many of those would you see executed before you consider capital punishment wrong?

Of the 10,000 "wrongfully convicted" how many are put to death?

It's my opinion that a sadistic murderer should be put to death for the benefit of society and the victim's family. It also sends a message to other would-be criminals. It probably wouldn't hinder many of them from committing crimes anyway but it may hinder some who are pondering committing a heinous crime.

Whatever the case may be, a person who is willing to take another person's life has announced to the world that life means nothing to him; thus, he forfeits his own. I do agree that the death penalty should only be meted out to them who are found guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Every serious crime is tried on the idea that they are only convicted if the jurors believe they are guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. We have 10k of those per year. Eye witnesses are notoriously inaccurate. Judges and DAs have been shown to be corrupt as hell. And police depts have been shown to twist the evidence and coerce statements.

 

[protectionist]

In CA they've got 700+ inmates on death row.

Yes, the death penalty is a real deterrent...not.

Got themselves a shiny new lethal injection chamber, and a renovated gas chamber.
All they need now is the green light and the execution-slaughter will begin.

Statistics show that many of the convicteds on death could in fact be innocent.
It's what the People of CA have voted for.

I have no interest in having any innocent people be executed.This was addressed in Post # 16 when I said >> "I'll bet most people would say enter ALL related positive evidence (videos, audios, witnesses, DNA, fingerprints, etc),..." Everything I'm saying in this thread is only within the context of cases where the proof is beyond doubt, not convictions that were done half-ass by irresponsible cops, prosecutors, and judges.

As for the death penalty being a deterrent. Of course it is, for the most important person involved. The one who committed the murder. Posts # 9 and # 36 show lists of names of people who lost their lives because of killers who were NOT deterred by execution.

As for the rest the potential killers, one of the prime reasons that the death penalty is not as much of a deterrent to them, as it could be, is because it >>
1) is hidden away deep inside the prison and not shown to the public
2) is attempted to be made to be humane, instead of painful
3) is enacted only after decades of appeals.

 

[WinterBorn]

In CA they've got 700+ inmates on death row.

Yes, the death penalty is a real deterrent...not.

Got themselves a shiny new lethal injection chamber, and a renovated gas chamber.
All they need now is the green light and the execution-slaughter will begin.

Statistics show that many of the convicteds on death could in fact be innocent.
It's what the People of CA have voted for.

I have no interest in having any innocent people be executed.This was addressed in Post # 16 when I said >> "I'll bet most people would say enter ALL related positive evidence (videos, audios, witnesses, DNA, fingerprints, etc),..." Everything I'm saying in this thread is only within the context of cases where the proof is beyond doubt, not convictions that were done half-ass by irresponsible cops, prosecutors, and judges.

As for the death penalty being a deterrent. Of course it is, for the most important person involved. The one who committed the murder. Posts # 9 and shows lists of names of people who lost their lives because of killers who were NOT deterred by execution.

As for the rest the potential killers, one of the prime reasons that the death penalty is not as much of a deterrent to them, as it could be, is because it >>
1) is hidden away deep inside the prison and not shown to the public
2) is attempted to be made to be humane, instead of painful
3) is enacted only after decades of appeals.

Yes, in another thread you talked about executng only those who had been video-taped committing the crime. But the article in the OP shows only one that might have been videoed.

 

[WinterBorn]

Proving again your desire to kill. You lower yourself to their level.

Put them away for life in secure conditions where they cannot order contract killings or kill other inmates: solitary confinement if need be. There is no reason for the State, which represents the public, to be a killer. It lowers all of us to the level of the murderer.

I will agree with you that they should not be allowed communication with the outside world so they cannot order contract killings. I was rather amazed to see that, on a wide scale, this wasn't happening. Instead, dangerous gang leaders, capable of ordering hits ARE ALLOWED mail privileges. On a recent documentary, this was shown where mail was being checked by prison authorities, but CODE was being used by the gangs to still allow hits to occur.

Just another example of pandering to prisoners and their "rights" over the rights of the public to be protected from them. IF the public was really being protected (as it presently is not) THEN perhaps a case could be made for life imprisonment, although then there still would be the risk of escape, and/or danger to anyone else in the prison.

So is there a reason for "for the State, which represents the public, to be a killer" ? Of course there there is. MULTIPLE reasons.

Can the convicted killer ALWAYS be isolated from other people ? Example: What happens if he has a toothache > Or needs surgery of some kind ?

And then there is also a JUSTICE question here as well. Is it really proper to allow these heinous committers of horrible murders some kind of a long life, when there victims got death ? Why should they have what they denied to their victims (in many cases, young children. Seeing it from that perspective, perhaps it is the life sentences that is the lowered level.

As for my desire to kill the convicted killer ? Absolutely yes. And in a painful, slow, and relatively public way, and without ridiculous delays of decades of appeals. This is to promote justice, and expand the deterrent factor from only the executed killer, as a really is now, to other potential killers, thereby saving innocent lives (a factor that many of you here don't seem to be putting much of a priority on).

What, in your opinion, is the difference between "Justice" and "Revenge"?

Protectionist, perhaps you didn't see this question I asked you.

Any idea?

 

[protectionist]

In CA they've got 700+ inmates on death row.

Yes, the death penalty is a real deterrent...not.

Got themselves a shiny new lethal injection chamber, and a renovated gas chamber.
All they need now is the green light and the execution-slaughter will begin.

Statistics show that many of the convicteds on death could in fact be innocent.It's what the People of CA have voted for.

Exactly, which is the best argument for ending the dealth penalty.

FALSE! It IS an argument, but not for that. It is an argument for only responsibly having the death penalty in cases of absolute positive guilt, not those done with flimsy evidence tossed about by irresponsible cops, prosecutors, and/or judges.

 

[WinterBorn]

In CA they've got 700+ inmates on death row.

Yes, the death penalty is a real deterrent...not.

Got themselves a shiny new lethal injection chamber, and a renovated gas chamber.
All they need now is the green light and the execution-slaughter will begin.

Statistics show that many of the convicteds on death could in fact be innocent.It's what the People of CA have voted for.

Exactly, which is the best argument for ending the dealth penalty.

FALSE! It IS an argument, but not for that. It is an argument for only responsibly having the death penalty in cases of absolute positive guilt, not those done with flimsy evidence tossed about by irresponsible cops, prosecutors, and/or judges.

And how do you tell the difference? Especially when you want a time limit on the appeals process.

Every conviction looks legitimate. But look at studies on the reliability of witness testimony.

And, as I said, 10k a year are wrongfully convicted. If even a small portion of those are on death row it is inexcusable.

Causes of Wrongful Convictions | Death Penalty Information Center

That link discusses 86 wrongful convictions that put men on death row.

 

[protectionist]

Those who oppose capital punishment should examine how many people are being killed by convicted killers who were allowed to live, instead of being executed. They might furthermore examine how many people have been killed even by prison inmates who were NOT convicted killers.
Then they might ask how many of these deaths will they see occur, before they consider life imprisonment wrong ?

 

[WinterBorn]

Those who oppose capital punishment should examine how many people are being killed by convicted killers who were allowed to live, instead of being executed. They might furthermore examine how many people have been killed even by prison inmates who were NOT convicted killers.
Then they might ask themselves how many of these deaths will they see occur, before they consider life imprisonment wrong ?

I have no problem with life in prison. They have been convicted of a serious enough crime that they have forfeit their right to live in society.

It also allows the process to show if they were wrongfully convicted.

No one can say, with any certainty, that we have not executed innocent people. No one can ay with any certainty that we do not have innocent people on death row. Until you can say that with 100% accuracy, the state should not be in the murder business.

 

[WinterBorn]

Protectionist, I notice you are still refusing to answer my question.

Why is that?

 

[jillian]

When they should have been executed years (if not decades) ago. The one of the bunch shown in the link whose crime was the most recent, was in 2002. Twelve years ago. How ludicrous is this ?

One conviction was as far back as 1983 (31 years ago)

Ohio set to execute 13 men through 2016 | www.mydaytondailynews.com

That you have to ask exhibits your ignorance of, and contempt for, due process and the rule of law.

Which is consistent with your ignorance of, and contempt for, the Constitution and its case law.

^^^^

that

 

[protectionist]

Those who oppose capital punishment should examine how many people are being killed by convicted killers who were allowed to live, instead of being executed. They might furthermore examine how many people have been killed even by prison inmates who were NOT convicted killers.
Then they might ask how many of these deaths will they see occur, before they consider life imprisonment wrong ?

So the question is here then. And what might the lifers have for an answer to it ?

How many deaths will they tolerate ? How many Post # 36 examples ?

??????????

1. On October 22, 1983 at the federal penitentiary in Marion, Illinois, two prison guards were murdered in two SEPARATE instances, by SEPARATE inmates, who were both serving life terms for previously murdering inmates.

2. In 1995, two death-row inmates at the Florida State Prison in Starke were killed by their fellow inmates.

3. Jack Henry Abbott, who had murdered a fellow prison inmate, was released early from a Utah prison. On July 18, 1981, six-weeks after his release, Abbott stabbed actor Richard Adan to death in New York.

4. Thomas Eugene Creech, who had been convicted of three murders and had claimed a role in more than 40 killings in 13 states as a paid killer for a motorcycle gang, killed a fellow prison inmate in 1981 and was sentenced to death.

5. Benny Lee Chaffin, on December 7, 1984 kidnapped, raped, and murdered a 9-year-old Springfield, Oregon girl. He had been convicted of murder once before in Texas, but not executed.

6. Jimmy Lee Gray -- who was free on parole from an Arizona conviction for killing a 16-year-old high school girl, kidnapped, sodomized, and suffocated a three-year-old Mississippi girl.

7. Samuel D. Smith -- in prison for murdering Zita Casey, 79, during a burglary in St. Louis in 1978. While in prison he murdered another inmate, Marlin May, during a knife fight in 1987 in prison.

8. Martsay Bolder -- Missouri. Serving a sentence of life for first-degree murder in 1973. Murdered prison cellmate 1979.

9. Randolph Dial -- Oklahoma. Life for murder 1986. Escaped from prison with deputy warden's wife as kidnap victim. 1989. Still at large. Warden's wife never found.

10. Randy Greenawalt -- Escaped from Prison in 1978, while serving a life sentence for a 1974 murder. He then murdered a family of 4 people, shotgunning them to death, including a toddler.

 

[WinterBorn]

Those who oppose capital punishment should examine how many people are being killed by convicted killers who were allowed to live, instead of being executed. They might furthermore examine how many people have been killed even by prison inmates who were NOT convicted killers.
Then they might ask how many of these deaths will they see occur, before they consider life imprisonment wrong ?

So the question is here then. And what might the lifers have for an answer to it ?

How many deaths will they tolerate ? How many Post # 36 examples ?

??????????


1. On October 22, 1983 at the federal penitentiary in Marion, Illinois, two prison guards were murdered in two SEPARATE instances, by SEPARATE inmates, who were both serving life terms for previously murdering inmates.

2. In 1995, two death-row inmates at the Florida State Prison in Starke were killed by their fellow inmates.

3. Jack Henry Abbott, who had murdered a fellow prison inmate, was released early from a Utah prison. On July 18, 1981, six-weeks after his release, Abbott stabbed actor Richard Adan to death in New York.

4. Thomas Eugene Creech, who had been convicted of three murders and had claimed a role in more than 40 killings in 13 states as a paid killer for a motorcycle gang, killed a fellow prison inmate in 1981 and was sentenced to death.

5. Benny Lee Chaffin, on December 7, 1984 kidnapped, raped, and murdered a 9-year-old Springfield, Oregon girl. He had been convicted of murder once before in Texas, but not executed.

6. Jimmy Lee Gray -- who was free on parole from an Arizona conviction for killing a 16-year-old high school girl, kidnapped, sodomized, and suffocated a three-year-old Mississippi girl.

7. Samuel D. Smith -- in prison for murdering Zita Casey, 79, during a burglary in St. Louis in 1978. While in prison he murdered another inmate, Marlin May, during a knife fight in 1987 in prison.

8. Martsay Bolder -- Missouri. Serving a sentence of life for first-degree murder in 1973. Murdered prison cellmate 1979.

9. Randolph Dial -- Oklahoma. Life for murder 1986. Escaped from prison with deputy warden's wife as kidnap victim. 1989. Still at large. Warden's wife never found.

10. Randy Greenawalt -- Escaped from Prison in 1978, while serving a life sentence for a 1974 murder. He then murdered a family of 4 people, shotgunning them to death, including a toddler.

I think there are plenty of other ways to deal with prison violence besides killing people.

And your answer to my question???

 

[protectionist]

Note to Winterborn:

In Post # 63 (quotes) I see you are asking me a question. I HAVE YOU ON IGNORE. Thereby, I'm not seeing your posts (except in an occasional quote box). So you you shouldn't be asking me questions, knowing I'm not going to see them. For that matter, you have no reason to be talking to me at all. In this forum, for me, you don't exist.

 

[Meathead]

What, in your opinion, is the difference between "Justice" and "Revenge"?

You should more accurately ask what is the difference between punishment in revenge. At the levels of atrocity reached by the condemned, there is none. Criminal justice is only served when the punishment fits the crime.

 

[protectionist]

What, in your opinion, is the difference between "Justice" and "Revenge"?

You should more accurately ask what is the difference between punishment in revenge. At the levels of atrocity reached by the condemned, there is none. Criminal justice is only served when the punishment fits the crime.

Short, but one of the more meaningful posts of this thread.

 

[WinterBorn]

What, in your opinion, is the difference between "Justice" and "Revenge"?

You should more accurately ask what is the difference between punishment in revenge. At the levels of atrocity reached by the condemned, there is none. Criminal justice is only served when the punishment fits the crime.

Short, but one of the more meaningful posts of this thread.

Meathead, if the conviction is absolutely accurate, you are correct. My issue with the death penalty is not that the criminals do not deserve it. My issue is whether or not the conviction is accurate.

 

[WinterBorn]

Note to Winterborn:

In Post # 63 (quotes) I see you are asking me a question. I HAVE YOU ON IGNORE. Thereby, I'm not seeing your posts (except in an occasional quote box). So you you shouldn't be asking me questions, knowing I'm not going to see them. For that matter, you have no reason to be talking to me at all. In this forum, for me, you don't exist.

If someone would like to quote this, perhaps protectionist could see that I call him a coward.

If you were ignoring me for calling you names or for harassing you, it would be justified. But so far I have simply argued against your rather bloodthirsty attitude.

But I guess when you keep losing a debate, ignoring the other person does help you feel better about your argument.

 

[Flopper]

I'll buy that.

Proving again your desire to kill. You lower yourself to their level.

Put them away for life in secure conditions where they cannot order contract killings or kill other inmates: solitary confinement if need be. There is no reason for the State, which represents the public, to be a killer. It lowers all of us to the level of the murderer.

I agree. Capital punishment is not a deterrent, it is not cost effective, and the state has no business killing citizens.

And, as I have said before, with the number of wrongfully convicted people being released every year, we should be worried about executing the innocent. Then we become the murderers.

From a financial standpoint, the death penalty makes no sense. The added cost of trying a capital case and confinement is much more expensive than a typical life sentence. From the standpoint of punishment, life in a maximum security prison is worse than the death penalty. Also, there is no real evidence that the death penalty is even a deterrent.

This explains why only 20% of the countries in the world, mostly in Africa and Asia maintain the death penalty in both law and practice.