Why I Am Not A Christian

[Newby]

Yanno, Newby I sorta regretted that this topic had arisen, as it is so divisive. But mebbe it can be instructive. Let's see.

You and I are in disagreement about abortion. The law says I can freely exercise my rights. Why is not enough for you to decide what to do with your OWN womb and leave me in peace? Am I over in your yard, bellyaching that YOUR choices are different than the ones I would make?

I don't understand why mutual respect is not valued by christian groups.

Guess what Mad, I'm not a 'christian group', I'm an individual. I will never respect a woman who chooses to kill her child because she was foolish enough to have unprotected sex, so her child has to pay the price. I don't understand what's so hard to understand about that. I don't understand how any woman that has carried a baby to term and given birth could ever support the murder of innocent children.

The law is based on non-existant words claimed to have been found in the Constitution. Murder is deemed against the law by our society. Killing your child is murder. Are you incapable of being responsible for your 'choice' to have unprotected sex?

 

[Madeline]

Newby, no birth control method is an absolute guarantee against pregnancy, not even sterilization. It's unlikely that "most aborted pregnancies result from unprotected sex". But even if it were true, my compassion lies with the female who's life is forever altered and the child who was not wanted, and it is with the female dying from the results of an illegal abortion.

Whether we agree or not about abortion is not really the point. I have asked you (and you have not yet answered) do you disapprove of the underhanded and even murderous routes taken by some christian groups to inhibit the rights of women? Do you subscribe to the "means justifies the ends" POV?

 

[Newby]

Newby, no birth control method is an absolute guarantee against pregnancy, not even sterilization. It's unlikely that "most aborted pregnancies result from unprotected sex". But even if it were true, my compassion lies with the female who's life is forever altered and the child who was not wanted, and it is with the female dying from the results of an illegal abortion.

Whether we agree or not about abortion is not really the point. I have asked you (and you have not yet answered) do you disapprove of the underhanded and even murderous routes taken by some christian groups to inhibit the rights of women? Do you subscribe to the "means justifies the ends" POV?

What 'underhanded and even murderous routes' are you referring too? What christian groups? What rights? Be specific.

 

[Madeline]

Newby, this is a little goofy. It's hard to believe you've missed the entire public discourse on the means used by the anti-abortion groups in the US.

* Murdering doctors who administer the procedures.

* Publishing their names and addresses and picketing their homes.

* Setting up phoney abortion clinics to draw in potential patients and "counsel" them.

* Blocking the release of safe abortificants by the FDA and keeping others on the prescription drug list unnecessarially.

If a person really opposes abortion and wants to reduce the incidence of it, why not instead:

* Advocate for meaningful sex ed in schools.

* Underwrite the cost of birth control and agitate for wider availability.

* Underwrite the costs of pregnancy and assist new parents.

Or any of 1,001 other sex-positive, non-judgmental means?

 

[Newby]

Newby, this is a little goofy. It's hard to believe you've missed the entire public discourse on the means used by the anti-abortion groups in the US.

* Murdering doctors who administer the procedures.

* Publishing their names and addresses and picketing their homes.

* Setting up phoney abortion clinics to draw in potential patients and "counsel" them.

* Blocking the release of safe abortificants by the FDA and keeping others on the prescription drug list unnecessarially.

If a person really opposes abortion and wants to reduce the incidence of it, why not instead:

* Advocate for meaningful sex ed in schools.

* Underwrite the cost of birth control and agitate for wider availability.

* Underwrite the costs of pregnancy and assist new parents.

Or any of 1,001 other sex-positive, non-judgmental means?

Could you please provide relevant and specific cases of each point you posted above?

* A link to 'murdering doctors' would be nice. Of course, that's what abortion doctors too, kind of ironic, isn't it?

* Publishing their names and addresses where? Aren't they public information to begin with? Picketing is their right, or would you take that away making you as bad as you claim they are?

* Link to 'phoney abortion clinics', never heard anything prior to your claim here.

* How do 'they' block safe abortificants exactly? Legislation of some kind? Link please?

* There already is meaningful sex ed in schools, where have you been? I'm sure you know of one that doesn't have sex ed as an example, right?

* Last time I checked, free birth control was widely available at any Planned Parenthood clinic. You want condoms and pills handed out in junior high?

* We already do that as well, it's called welfare.

You didn't say what christian groups you were referring too specifically either.

You think irresponsible sex is a positive thing? Sex at any cost, is that your motto? Society should have to pay for each person's irresponsible behavior?

 

[Sky Dancer]

I can't believe this thread is now about abortion politics.

 

[Newby]

I can't believe this thread is now about abortion politics.

Well, it's about Mad's feelings that evil Christians are trying to take women's reproductive freedom away, so we're technnically still on topic.

 

[Sky Dancer]

I can't believe this thread is now about abortion politics.

Well, it's about Mad's feelings that evil Christians are trying to take women's reproductive freedom away, so we're technnically still on topic.

IMO Abortion isn't a great topic for a spiritual discussion. It's political, it's judgmental, it's combative and rarely productive.

 

[Madeline]

Okay. What do you suggest, Sky Dancer? Gay marriage?

 

[Newby]

Okay. What do you suggest, Sky Dancer? Gay marriage?

How about answering my post? You made a lot of accusations without backing any of them up. You're the one that continually brought up abortion, so now I'm discussing it and you want to quit. Why is that?

 

[Newby]

I can't believe this thread is now about abortion politics.

Well, it's about Mad's feelings that evil Christians are trying to take women's reproductive freedom away, so we're technnically still on topic.

IMO Abortion isn't a great topic for a spiritual discussion. It's political, it's judgmental, it's combative and rarely productive.

Tell that to Mad, she brought it up, not me.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Okay. What do you suggest, Sky Dancer? Gay marriage?

I think it would be easier to stay with one or two of your points without going into every single issue you have with Christians.

For example, staying with the anti-sex or anti-female assertion. This is just a suggestion.

The thread is all over the map. Evil, abortion, etc. Any one of those topics could be it's own thread.

 

[Madeline]

Okay. What do you suggest, Sky Dancer? Gay marriage?

How about answering my post? You made a lot of accusations without backing any of them up. You're the one that continually brought up abortion, so now I'm discussing it and you want to quit. Why is that?

Because a simple google search would fully answer all your questions. Because Sky Dancer feels it's not the right topic for this thread, and on reflection, I agree with her.

 

[Anguille]

I've addressed all of your stupid, assinine, pompous, condescending 'issues'. When I do all you do is run away and then come back a day later and continue spewing the same shit that started this thread without batting an eye. It's become pretty amusing as a matter of fact, which is why I got a good laugh out of the last post. When you start calling people 'evil' along with all of the other crap you just posted, you're far worse than any self agrandizing, judgmental 'christian' I've ever come across. What's funny is the irony of that apparently goes right over your head. Have a nice afternoon, Mad. P.S. You might want to take Sky's advice and seek help.

Some behavior is evil, Newby. There aren't many people I'd discard altogether as evil. I know it's hard to read the posts with which you disagree carefully, but if you look, you'll see the error.

Your definition of 'evil' must then be very warped Mad. I would say the act of killing your own child is evil. You defend it. In my opinion, you're the one with evil behavior. See how that works? Probably not.

I'm beginning to think Booby is evil.

Just kidding! I'm with Sky and the Buddhists on the concept of evil. It is a Judeo-Christian concept. I don't believe it exists. The word suggests an active destructive force at work. Something I don't believe in either.

 

[Madeline]

Okay. What do you suggest, Sky Dancer? Gay marriage?

I think it would be easier to stay with one or two of your points without going into every single issue you have with Christians.

For example, staying with the anti-sex or anti-female assertion. This is just a suggestion.

The thread is all over the map. Evil, abortion, etc. Any one of those topics could be it's own thread.

I'm hot. I'm out of gas here, Sky Dancer. Care to give it a shot?

It isn't even so much that I see christianity as practiced by most Americans sects as anti-sexual and anti-female; it's that they insist on trying to shape the lives of others to their own values that truly bothers me.

Believe whatever you like, but why I cannot be permitted the same luxury is just beyond my comprehension.

 

[Anguille]

If I shared your POV, Newby, then I would agree. See how that works? We have a society that allows people to disagree, to have different values and beliefs, and to conduct their lives as they see fit.

Why is that so unappealing? Why try to force those who disagree with you to behave in accordance with your values...especially by such underhanded means as phoney abortion clinics, etc.?

So murder is a part of your values and beliefs?

Newby, abortion is and has been an American practice during at least all of the 20th and 21st centuries. It will not ever stop. All that can ever be done is forcing it back underground again and if that were to happen, it is the poor females who will suffer and die.

Seems to me that anyone who finds abortion repugnant could find 1,001 sex-positive, non-judgmental ways to curtail its use that do not denigrate women or impair their rights. Punishing women who choose to use the procedures and drugs to halt a pregnancy they do not want is wrong, IMO. That other person's choices are protected by the constitution that we all live under, and to attempt to interfere with their free exercise shows a terrific lack of respect and compassion.

IMO.

Just want to note that abortion was legal during Colonial times and for some time after that.

 

[Anguille]

Newby, no birth control method is an absolute guarantee against pregnancy, not even sterilization. It's unlikely that "most aborted pregnancies result from unprotected sex". But even if it were true, my compassion lies with the female who's life is forever altered and the child who was not wanted, and it is with the female dying from the results of an illegal abortion.

Whether we agree or not about abortion is not really the point. I have asked you (and you have not yet answered) do you disapprove of the underhanded and even murderous routes taken by some christian groups to inhibit the rights of women? Do you subscribe to the "means justifies the ends" POV?

Newby believes being forced to give birth is an appropriate punishment for a woman who has sex and gets pregnant. Imagine being brought into this word to serve as your mother's punishment!

 

[Sky Dancer]

Okay. What do you suggest, Sky Dancer? Gay marriage?

I think it would be easier to stay with one or two of your points without going into every single issue you have with Christians.

For example, staying with the anti-sex or anti-female assertion. This is just a suggestion.

The thread is all over the map. Evil, abortion, etc. Any one of those topics could be it's own thread.

I'm hot. I'm out of gas here, Sky Dancer. Care to give it a shot?

It isn't even so much that I see christianity as practiced by most Americans sects as anti-sexual and anti-female; it's that they insist on trying to shape the lives of others to their own values that truly bothers me.

Believe whatever you like, but why I cannot be permitted the same luxury is just beyond my comprehension.

I'm just trying to help you get to what really irks you about Christians. It sounds like you experience some Christians as wanting to interfere in your life and the lives of others. Is that the main issue? Christianity is about values. They're certainly welcome to shape the lives of their adherents to their own values.

 

[Anguille]

It isn't even so much that I see christianity as practiced by most Americans sects as anti-sexual and anti-female; it's that they insist on trying to shape the lives of others to their own values that truly bothers me.

Believe whatever you like, but why I cannot be permitted the same luxury is just beyond my comprehension.

Christianityhas had an enormous impact on American society, not much of which I can see was for the good of the country.

I don't understand why you would want to be "permitted that same luxury" of "trying to shape the lives of others"?? Perhaps I am misreading your post.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Some behavior is evil, Newby. There aren't many people I'd discard altogether as evil. I know it's hard to read the posts with which you disagree carefully, but if you look, you'll see the error.

Your definition of 'evil' must then be very warped Mad. I would say the act of killing your own child is evil. You defend it. In my opinion, you're the one with evil behavior. See how that works? Probably not.

I'm beginning to think Booby is evil.

Just kidding! I'm with Sky and the Buddhists on the concept of evil. It is a Judeo-Christian concept. I don't believe it exists. The word suggests an active destructive force at work. Something I don't believe in either.

The problem I have with the evil concept is that it's taken as absolute but it's actually a relative concept. Evil is in the eye of the beholder. What's identified as evil varies widely over time.

Edited to add. I just found this and thought it interesting:

"Carl Jung, depicted evil as the "dark side of God". People tend to believe evil is something external to them, because they project their shadow onto others. Jung interpreted the story of Jesus as an account of God facing his own shadow."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil