Why do atheists...

[Meriweather]

Really? So when Hobby Lobby insists on the right to deny their employees birth control becuase that makes Baby Jesus cry, that's not a political act?

You made my point. It's politics. Not religion. If we don't like lobbying, then no lobbying for any group. I am good with that. Are you?

 

[JoeB131]

You made my point. It's politics. Not religion. If we don't like lobbying, then no lobbying for any group. I am good with that. Are you?

No, I'm not.

Lobbyists aren't the problem. Lobbyists bring up legitimate concerns from constituents. I think we need lobbying reform, but lobbyists themselves aren't the problem.

The problem is, when someone goes out and tries to make policy based on their backward-ass bronze age superstitions rather than on good facts and science.

 

[Meriweather]

No, I'm not.

Lobbyists aren't the problem. Lobbyists bring up legitimate concerns from constituents. I think we need lobbying reform, but lobbyists themselves aren't the problem.

The problem is, when someone goes out and tries to make policy based on their backward-ass bronze age superstitions rather than on good facts and science.

Calling a position you disagree with politically as a "Bronze Age Superstition" begs the question, much like calling another group of lobbyists greedy, grasping entrepreneurs when they work on any issue that benefits their business. Once an issue falls into the political arena, people (by definition) take a political stand on that issue. Like Party Politics, different groups may take varying stances on the political argument. To ban people of faith from the political arena and prohibiting their participation is a blow against democracy and our Republic.

 

[JoeB131]

Calling a position you disagree with politically as a "Bronze Age Superstition" begs the question, much like calling another group of lobbyists greedy, grasping entrepreneurs when they work on any issue that benefits their business. Once an issue falls into the political arena, people (by definition) take a political stand on that issue. Like Party Politics, different groups may take varying stances on the political argument. To ban people of faith from the political arena and prohibiting their participation is a blow against democracy and our Republic.

Here's the thing. A lobbyist advocating a special interest can have their position evaluated and quantified. You can look at statistics and determine if their position is good policy or not.

Doing something because an imaginary pixie in the sky is going to be REALLY ANGRY if you don't, that's not something you can base policy on.

 

[Meriweather]

Here's the thing. A lobbyist advocating a special interest can have their position evaluated and quantified. You can look at statistics and determine if their position is good policy or not.

Doing something because an imaginary pixie in the sky is going to be REALLY ANGRY if you don't, that's not something you can base policy on.

That's not the reason people take an opposing position to something you want/don't want.

 

[Vandalshandle]

RW is not talking about family philosophical discussions. He is talking about the people who demand that the "...judeo-Christian tradition of this country" being codified into law.

Those are political views, not religious ones. I know of no religious group that demands a law be made for everyone to follow a particular religion. I believe you may be complaining about Lobbyists? I am in favor of disbanding them all.

You are kidding, right? I grew up in the South, and all the way through my mid 20's, it was illegal to open any stores except gas stations, pharmacists, and convience stores on Sunday. Even convience stores were not allowed to sell anything but consumables. You could buy a bag of potato chips, but not a spatula. When I was in the 7th grade, my public elementary school distributed New Testaments to all the kids in my 7th grade class, which was a direct slap in the face to the jews. Have you paid even the slightest bit of attention to Michele Bachmann, who very specifically wants to codify Christian values into law? Do you think that the LDS Church has really been passing laws in Utah for the last 150 years that were not motivated by religion?

 

[Meriweather]

You are kidding, right? I grew up in the South, and all the way through my mid 20's, it was illegal to open any stores except gas stations, pharmacists, and convience stores on Sunday. Even convience stores were not allowed to sell anything but consumables. You could buy a bag of potato chips, but not a spatula. When I was in the 7th grade, my public elementary school distributed New Testaments to all the kids in my 7th grade class, which was a direct slap in the face to the jews. Have you paid even the slightest bit of attention to Michele Bachmann, who very specifically wants to codify Christian values into law? Do you think that the LDS Church has really been passing laws in Utah for the last 150 years that were not motivated by religion?

Once again, you are talking politics. I grew up in the West and apparently our politics is different here. Yes, when we lived in Texas, they had that silly law (made by politicians) that prohibited me from buying alcohol on Sundays. The churches don't have the authority to enact such a law, so if people who live in these areas disagree with any law regarding alcohol, they should talk to their lawmakers not to their pastors.

When I was in seventh grade, we had Jewish couples and Rabbis come in to our school assemblies to talk to us about Judaism. But then, that was a Catholic school, and we didn't have to worry about people making a fuss about prayers and religion being topics during the school day.

 

[Vandalshandle]

You are kidding, right? I grew up in the South, and all the way through my mid 20's, it was illegal to open any stores except gas stations, pharmacists, and convience stores on Sunday. Even convience stores were not allowed to sell anything but consumables. You could buy a bag of potato chips, but not a spatula. When I was in the 7th grade, my public elementary school distributed New Testaments to all the kids in my 7th grade class, which was a direct slap in the face to the jews. Have you paid even the slightest bit of attention to Michele Bachmann, who very specifically wants to codify Christian values into law? Do you think that the LDS Church has really been passing laws in Utah for the last 150 years that were not motivated by religion?

Once again, you are talking politics. I grew up in the West and apparently our politics is different here. Yes, when we lived in Texas, they had that silly law (made by politicians) that prohibited me from buying alcohol on Sundays. The churches don't have the authority to enact such a law, so if people who live in these areas disagree with any law regarding alcohol, they should talk to their lawmakers not to their pastors.

When I was in seventh grade, we had Jewish couples and Rabbis come in to our school assemblies to talk to us about Judaism. But then, that was a Catholic school, and we didn't have to worry about people making a fuss about prayers and religion being topics during the school day.

You are the first person on this board that I have ever encountered who says that there is no organized effort of the part of churches in America to codify Christian values into law. When I was growing up in the South, it was illegal for people of color to go to school with white people. Preachers taught that segregation was "God's plan", which is why he put blacks in Africa. Apparently, god had failed to envision the invention of ships. You are either extremely naive, or in denial.

 

[Meriweather]

You are the first person on this board that I have ever encountered who says that there is no organized effort of the part of churches in America to codify Christian values into law. When I was growing up in the South, it was illegal for people of color to go to school with white people. Preachers taught that segregation was "God's plan", which is why he put blacks in Africa. Apparently, god had failed to envision the invention of ships. You are either extremely naive, or in denial.

1. I said churches do not codify laws. Politicians do that.
2. When I grew up, segregation was illegal. That means politics/law were changed unless you are saying churches changed that as well. In my day, God placed blacks and whites as roommates--and where I went to school, no one blinked twice at that or thought it in anyway odd.
3. I never once heard that "Segregation was God's plan." Not even from grandparents, great aunts or uncles. Again, we lived in the West.

However, I do understand things were different in different parts of the country. A colleague who grew up in pretty much the same area as I did, tells how her family did occasionally visit relatives in the south. When the day grew warm, she would insist on going to the swimming pool, something her family tried to discourage, gently telling her black people were looked at differently in that town. She didn't care. She went swimming, she was looked at differently--and she still didn't care. In her mind it was Southern people who were odd. .

I grew up Catholic. Catholics did not run City Hall--but nor were we banned from City Hall. I am neither naive nor in denial. Got gravel in my gut and spit in the eye (as the old Johnny Cash lyrics go). Still, it does appear I grew up in a time and a place that you may only have dreamed of. I would like to think that had I grown up in your time and place I would be exactly the same--but then that would be naive. What do you think: Do more children today grow up in the environment I describe or the environment you describe? Were things changed?

 

[JoeB131]

That's not the reason people take an opposing position to something you want/don't want.

It is in some cases, that's my point. Issues like gay marriage and birth control and teaching evolution in the schools, all of which are good things, really.

You have no rational argument against them other than "God".

I mean we've progress a long way from the time where you religious nutters could burn people you disagreed with at the stake, but not far enough as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Vandalshandle]

You are the first person on this board that I have ever encountered who says that there is no organized effort of the part of churches in America to codify Christian values into law. When I was growing up in the South, it was illegal for people of color to go to school with white people. Preachers taught that segregation was "God's plan", which is why he put blacks in Africa. Apparently, god had failed to envision the invention of ships. You are either extremely naive, or in denial.

1. I said churches do not codify laws. Politicians do that.
2. When I grew up, segregation was illegal. That means politics/law were changed unless you are saying churches changed that as well. In my day, God placed blacks and whites as roommates--and where I went to school, no one blinked twice at that or thought it in anyway odd.
3. I never once heard that "Segregation was God's plan." Not even from grandparents, great aunts or uncles. Again, we lived in the West.

However, I do understand things were different in different parts of the country. A colleague who grew up in pretty much the same area as I did, tells how her family did occasionally visit relatives in the south. When the day grew warm, she would insist on going to the swimming pool, something her family tried to discourage, gently telling her black people were looked at differently in that town. She didn't care. She went swimming, she was looked at differently--and she still didn't care. In her mind it was Southern people who were odd. .

I grew up Catholic. Catholics did not run City Hall--but nor were we banned from City Hall. I am neither naive nor in denial. Got gravel in my gut and spit in the eye (as the old Johnny Cash lyrics go). Still, it does appear I grew up in a time and a place that you may only have dreamed of. I would like to think that had I grown up in your time and place I would be exactly the same--but then that would be naive. What do you think: Do more children today grow up in the environment I describe or the environment you describe? Were things changed?

Yep. Naive AND denial:

Dominionism: Michele Bachmann and Rick Perry’s Dangerous Religious Bond

LDS donate millions to fight gay marriage

Planned Parenthood Concerned about Christian Action League’s Opposition to Abortion

 

[Meriweather]

Yep. Naive AND denial:

Dominionism: Michele Bachmann and Rick Perry’s Dangerous Religious Bond

LDS donate millions to fight gay marriage

Planned Parenthood Concerned about Christian Action League’s Opposition to Abortion

Once again, you make my point. These are groups lobbying on what has become a political issue. Some seem to think that if one is a person of faith, they should hold no opinion on political issues. Are you one of them? Churches. do. not. legislate. or. make. laws.

 

[Vandalshandle]

Yep. Naive AND denial:

Dominionism: Michele Bachmann and Rick Perry’s Dangerous Religious Bond

LDS donate millions to fight gay marriage

Planned Parenthood Concerned about Christian Action League’s Opposition to Abortion

Once again, you make my point. These are groups lobbying on what has become a political issue. Some seem to think that if one is a person of faith, they should hold no opinion on political issues. Are you one of them? Churches. do. not. legislate. or. make. laws.

MW, I never said that a church makes laws. I said from the beginning that churces want their beliefs codified, and that means for non believers, as well. You are playing with semantics. If you live in Utah, you are going to live in a society whose laws were framed, and initiated by the church. The same is true everywhere where it is allowed, and atheists have to fight that. When the church has no restraint, then society returns to the Inquisition of the Middle Ages. Atheists demand that the ten Commandments be removed from courtrooms for this reason.

 

[Meriweather]

MW, I never said that a church makes laws. I said from the beginning that churces want their beliefs codified, and that means for non believers, as well. You are playing with semantics. If you live in Utah, you are going to live in a society whose laws were framed, and initiated by the church. The same is true everywhere where it is allowed, and atheists have to fight that. When the church has no restraint, then society returns to the Inquisition of the Middle Ages. Atheists demand that the ten Commandments be removed from courtrooms for this reason.

This is not semantics. Our laws are made (and unmade) in a political venue. My daughter lives in Utah. When she wants to be involved in politics and laws, she does not go to the LDS Church. She starts with the city council. If atheists want to join her, they too, will approach lawmakers, not the LDS Church. Should the LDS faithful also have a say in government? Yes, they should. If those who are not LDS don't like members of the LDS faith involved in government, then they understand the frustration of many who do not like other large groups of lobbyists involved in government. That is the Republic we live in. But anyone can effect a change if they are determined and work hard at it. And, if the majority of the population is in agreement.

 

[Vandalshandle]

MW, I never said that a church makes laws. I said from the beginning that churces want their beliefs codified, and that means for non believers, as well. You are playing with semantics. If you live in Utah, you are going to live in a society whose laws were framed, and initiated by the church. The same is true everywhere where it is allowed, and atheists have to fight that. When the church has no restraint, then society returns to the Inquisition of the Middle Ages. Atheists demand that the ten Commandments be removed from courtrooms for this reason.

This is not semantics. Our laws are made (and unmade) in a political venue. My daughter lives in Utah. When she wants to be involved in politics and laws, she does not go to the LDS Church. She starts with the city council. If atheists want to join her, they too, will approach lawmakers, not the LDS Church. Should the LDS faithful also have a say in government? Yes, they should. If those who are not LDS don't like members of the LDS faith involved in government, then they understand the frustration of many who do not like other large groups of lobbyists involved in government. That is the Republic we live in. But anyone can effect a change if they are determined and work hard at it. And, if the majority of the population is in agreement.

Sure, like when the LDS in Utah spent millions fighting same sex marriage in California.