Why Can't the Pro-Choice Crowd Be Honest?

[AllieBaba]

I don't disagree with you one bit. The goal is to not have so many pregnancies.

I've asked this before and don't know if it was answered (long thread)

Why?

I thought the goal was to reduce abortions...

If we're reducing pregnancy, then you might as well keep abortion because it's certainly effective for THAT.

 

[Anguille]

Why do you want us to make an argument we don't agree with?

A fetus is human. No more or less human then it was when it was a Blastocyst or that it will be when he or she reaches the ripe old age of 99.

The vast majority of us who are pro-life are not interested in punishing the woman or the abortionist for that matter. What we want is fewer abortions and ultimately zero abortions or at least as close as we can get to that number. We will probably never see anywhere close to that and as long as people such as yourself promote abortion on demand from conception through birth (if that is your position as it seems to be) then the hope of ever reducing the number of abortions is pie in the sky.

Accomplishing our goals through the threat of punishment may seem to some to be achievable, but for me, I don't think that will work. We have to undertake alternative methods which don't include the threat of punishment and quite frankly about the only way I can think of is through education and ultimately changing the hearts of women and men bringing them to accept that abortion is not the answer.

Immie

I don't disagree with you one bit. The goal is to not have so many pregnancies.

Stop ******* every Tom, Dick, and Harry without birth control

Take the pill, use a condom, wash with foam, stop being a slut. With these simple steps, you can avoid pregnancy.

Clearly, Puke-Enema has not been gettin' any for a long time.

 

[syrenn]

And what pray tell gives you the right to make the decision that it does not have life as far as you are concerned?

Forgive me because you and I are friends and I respect much of what you say but dagnamit, who made you God?

Immie

Will 4 week old C-sectioned out tissue live? Will it be a baby? That is what gives me the right to say it is not a life as far as i am concerned. The tissue is living, the tissue is human but the tissue does not have stand alone life.

I do not pretend to be god. I do understand life and what a baby is. 4 week old tissue is not a baby.

I get the part where everyone is crying "murder" over an abortion. A C-sections is not an abortion. A C-section would be giving birth to what ever it is that is there. How hard is that for everyone to understand?

If 4 week old tissue has a life of its own..i am saying give it that life. Give it a c-sectioned birth. The woman no longer has it inside her body, it has not been destroyed in an abortion. If the tissue is a baby let it have it live if it has a life. You could also say..let god decide.

No, Syrenn you are not saying give it life. As of today's medical technology you know full well that removing it from the womb is a death sentence. You are in fact, playing God.

4 week old tissue is not a baby.

This is nothing more than your opinion. My opinion is that you are 100% wrong. It is a baby in a very early stage of development and I am pretty sure that biology back me up on that.

Immie

Yes, i do know very well that 4 week old tissue will not survive. Therefor it is not a stand alone life and is dependent on a host. If god is going to come into this then god has the ability to make it live.

The whole abortion issue is ALL about opinion. No ones opinions are ever in line with others.

 

[JBeukema]

I don't disagree with you one bit. The goal is to not have so many pregnancies.

Stop ******* every Tom, Dick, and Harry without birth control

Take the pill, use a condom, wash with foam, stop being a slut. With these simple steps, you can avoid pregnancy.

Clearly, Puke-Enema has not been gettin' any for a long time.

I don't believe in sleeping with someone if I can't fathom myself being the father of her children and being happy rearing our child together.

Maybe if you people adopted a similar standard you wouldn't have to struggle with knowing you're murderers.

 

[R.D.]

I've asked this before and don't know if it was answered (long thread)

Why?

I thought the goal was to reduce abortions...

If we're reducing pregnancy, then you might as well keep abortion because it's certainly effective for THAT.

Tru dat


I just can wrap my brain around a defender of abortion agreeing that they should be reduced.

 

[Ravi]

I'm surprised Buttemia isn't arguing that anyone under 18 isn't a person because they aren't allowed to vote. He thinks women only became persons when they were allowed to vote.



The guy is just that stupid.

 

[Anguille]

Stop ******* every Tom, Dick, and Harry without birth control

Take the pill, use a condom, wash with foam, stop being a slut. With these simple steps, you can avoid pregnancy.

Clearly, Puke-Enema has not been gettin' any for a long time.

I don't believe in sleeping with someone if I can't fathom myself being the father of her children and being happy rearing our child together.

Maybe if you people adopted a similar standard you wouldn't have to struggle with knowing you're murderers.

So I was right. You ain't been gettin' none.

 

[JBeukema]

So they were people but not citizens?

Or citizens but not people?

I'm pretty sure they were recognized as citizens.

It's your argument. I don't give a shit what the law has to say.

Spousal rape was legal until the early 90s in the U.S.

When you appeal to the Law, you prove yourself a Statist with no principles.

 

[Immanuel]

Will 4 week old C-sectioned out tissue live? Will it be a baby? That is what gives me the right to say it is not a life as far as i am concerned. The tissue is living, the tissue is human but the tissue does not have stand alone life.

I do not pretend to be god. I do understand life and what a baby is. 4 week old tissue is not a baby.

I get the part where everyone is crying "murder" over an abortion. A C-sections is not an abortion. A C-section would be giving birth to what ever it is that is there. How hard is that for everyone to understand?

If 4 week old tissue has a life of its own..i am saying give it that life. Give it a c-sectioned birth. The woman no longer has it inside her body, it has not been destroyed in an abortion. If the tissue is a baby let it have it live if it has a life. You could also say..let god decide.

No, Syrenn you are not saying give it life. As of today's medical technology you know full well that removing it from the womb is a death sentence. You are in fact, playing God.

4 week old tissue is not a baby.

This is nothing more than your opinion. My opinion is that you are 100% wrong. It is a baby in a very early stage of development and I am pretty sure that biology back me up on that.

Immie

Except biology doesn't back you up. It's crazy forced birthers who call fetuses babies, not scientists.

I think we can all agree, however, that there is a big difference between something that breathes on it's own and something that does not.

Biology does back me up that a human zygote is a human.
Biology does back me up that a human embryo is a human.
Biology does back me up that a human fetus is a human.
Biology does back me up that a human infant is a human.
Biology does back me up that a human toddler is a human.
Biology does back me up that a human teenager is a human. Well, I think I had better check on that one first.
Biology does back me up that a human adult is a human.

No, we cannot come to that agreement using the apparent definition of "difference" you seem to want to use.

Immie

 

[Ravi]

So they were people but not citizens?

Or citizens but not people?

I'm pretty sure they were recognized as citizens.

It's your argument. I don't give a shit what the law has to say.

Spousal rape was legal until the early 90s in the U.S.

When you appeal to the Law, you prove yourself a Statist with no principles.

Who are you talking to, Buttemia? It has always been your argument that slaves weren't persons but you've been proven wrong. By the constitution, the very document you pretend to understand and worship.

Delicious!

 

[syrenn]

The only people in this thread who seem to think abortion is murder are the pro-abortionists. If you didn't know in your own heart that you advocate the cold-blooded murder of a child, you wouldn't have to lie to yourself about what you advocate and try to convince yourself that we're somehow dealing with a not-alive non-human- non-organism.

I have never said that fetal tissue was not alive, non human or a non organism. You do however do say that abortions is = to murder.

If used to end the pregnancy and end bring about the child's death, yet it is.

The procedures for an abortion and a c-section are very different. A c- section is a from of birth

So it is 'stand-alone life'? Can you please one story and stick with it?

Then if it IS a stand alone life and not just living tissue... give it birth so that it can live. How hard is that to understand?

I don't believe in your god

What makes you think its my god?

.

 

[Anguille]

No, Syrenn you are not saying give it life. As of today's medical technology you know full well that removing it from the womb is a death sentence. You are in fact, playing God.



This is nothing more than your opinion. My opinion is that you are 100% wrong. It is a baby in a very early stage of development and I am pretty sure that biology back me up on that.

Immie

Except biology doesn't back you up. It's crazy forced birthers who call fetuses babies, not scientists.

I think we can all agree, however, that there is a big difference between something that breathes on it's own and something that does not.

Biology does back me up that a human zygote is a human.
Biology does back me up that a human embryo is a human.
Biology does back me up that a human fetus is a human.
Biology does back me up that a human infant is a human.
Biology does back me up that a human toddler is a human.
Biology does back me up that a human teenager is a human. Well, I think I had better check on that one first.
Biology does back me up that a human adult is a human.

No, we cannot come to that agreement using the apparent definition of "difference" you seem to want to use.

Immie

This was not your original statement.

 

[Anguille]

So they were people but not citizens?

Or citizens but not people?

I'm pretty sure they were recognized as citizens.

It's your argument. I don't give a shit what the law has to say.

Spousal rape was legal until the early 90s in the U.S.

When you appeal to the Law, you prove yourself a Statist with no principles.

Who are you talking to, Buttemia? It has always been your argument that slaves weren't persons but you've been proven wrong. By the constitution, the very document you pretend to understand and worship.

Delicious!

He will say anything, anything at all, to get a little attention.

 

[JBeukema]

So they were people but not citizens?

Or citizens but not people?

I'm pretty sure they were recognized as citizens.

It's your argument. I don't give a shit what the law has to say.

Spousal rape was legal until the early 90s in the U.S.

When you appeal to the Law, you prove yourself a Statist with no principles.

Who are you talking to, Buttemia? It has always been your argument that slaves weren't persons

You're the only one to claim that the Constitution had anything to do with whether or not a human being is a person

They were included in the phrase "all other persons." And you know who wasn't included in that phrase? The unborn. The founders didn't count the unborn as persons and neither do rational people.

Because they're not and the constitution backs that up.

By the constitution, the very document you pretend to understand and worship.

 

[JBeukema]

The procedures for an abortion and a c-section are very different. A c- section is a from of birth

An abortion is anything done that ends the life of the unborn child. Methodology has nothing to do with it.

What makes you think its my god?

.

You're the only one bringing your god into it

 

[Immanuel]

Since the original theme of this epic was cogent argument...

...someone on the anti-abortion side please make an argument to us that demonstrates that a fertilized egg is NO DIFFERENT than a fully developed person,

and therefore must be treated NO DIFFERENTLY when it comes to the issue of abortion/termination/killing, call it what you want.

I will stipulate that it is human. I will stipulate that it is an organism. I contend that both of those stipulations are immaterial to the question presented.

Please...begin...

Why do you want us to make an argument we don't agree with?

A fetus is human. No more or less human then it was when it was a Blastocyst or that it will be when he or she reaches the ripe old age of 99.

The vast majority of us who are pro-life are not interested in punishing the woman or the abortionist for that matter. What we want is fewer abortions and ultimately zero abortions or at least as close as we can get to that number. We will probably never see anywhere close to that and as long as people such as yourself promote abortion on demand from conception through birth (if that is your position as it seems to be) then the hope of ever reducing the number of abortions is pie in the sky.

Accomplishing our goals through the threat of punishment may seem to some to be achievable, but for me, I don't think that will work. We have to undertake alternative methods which don't include the threat of punishment and quite frankly about the only way I can think of is through education and ultimately changing the hearts of women and men bringing them to accept that abortion is not the answer.

Immie

I don't disagree with you one bit. The goal is to not have so many pregnancies.

The problem i have with the pro life people is that they do not adopt the children that are unwanted. They talk the talk but refuse to walk the walk when it comes time to raise up all of these little people. I dont see many pro lifers who are willing to give up their time and money and homes to support the masses in the foster care system now.

The alternative would be for every who is pro life to register as pro life and get in line for the adoption of next baby that is born who is wanted. I don't see that happening any time soon.

I would hope that you meant so many unwanted pregnancies.

I have not yet adopted nor have I been privileged enough to take in foster children. It has been our goal to do so when our children grow up and move out. So far they have achieved the grow up part, but I have not found the key to get them to move out

But we have in the past supported organizations that support mothers in crisis pregnancies.

Situations do not always warrant the taking in of other children.

I dont see many pro lifers who are willing to give up their time and money and homes to support the masses in the foster care system now.

Maybe you just aren't looking? And maybe if you are talking about people on sites such as this one, they simply are not talking about it. The bible says (paraphrased) not to toot your own horn.

The alternative would be for every who is pro life to register as pro life and get in line for the adoption of next baby that is born who is wanted. I don't see that happening any time soon.

I would actually love to be foster parents, but truthfully, I am not even sure they would allow me to be as we were at one time accused of a crime we did not commit... we were accused of neglect and I said, we did not commit that crime. Nothing worse than having a damned bureaucrat knocking on your door threatening to take your children away from you if you don't drop your drawers and bend over!

Immie

 

[syrenn]

Of course not. But whether it lives outside of its environment doesn't determine its humanness or not. Humans beget humans. From conception to delivery and beyond, they are human beings. Different stages to be sure, but human beings at each and every stage.

If I took you as you are right now and plopped you in the middle of Siberia you'd be dead within the hour. Does that make you less human because you're unprepared and unequipped to survive in a hostile environment?

This is the part that I think many are not getting. Developmental stages of a human being are just that . . . stages of development. But what is living and growing inside of a woman is a human being. How can you possibly say it is anything else? That it is just a blob of tissue? If it were just a blob of tissue, if it isn't "life" as you claim . . . then an abortion wouldn't be something a woman would seek.

I posted these definitions earlier and they went ignored.

Abortion: the removal of an embryo or fetus from the uterus in order to end a pregnancy.

Pregnancy: 1. the state or condition of being pregnant 2. the period from conception to childbirth

Where do i say that the tissue is not human? Where do i ever say it is not living tissue? Don't misunderstand what i am saying.

Do i say plop the tissue out into Siberia? I say put it on the table. Have that 4 week old mass of tissue worked over any way you want and given all the life support it can get. Will it live?

No one has the right to force someone else to be an incubator for a something that can be construed as a parasite. I know those are harsh terms but it is what it is. 4 week old fetal human tissue cannot survive without its host.

Again, i do not say abortion do i? I say c- section, a form of birth. Birth effectively ends pregnancy.

JB asks is it human from conception. Yes it is
Jb asks is that tissue alive. Yes it is

Alive and having a life of its own are two very different things.

Do you not understand that human beings develop through various stages before they are fully capable of living outside of the womb? Whether you c-section it out, deliver it out, abort . . .what means you use . . . how can you expect a human being in the earliest stages to survive in an environment it is not yet equipped to survive in? Surviving -- viability -- doesn't determine if a fetus is a human being or not. That 'blob of living tissue' you refer to IS a human being in one of the earliest stages of development. To state otherwise is a lie.

I never said to put a 4 week fetus into Siberia . . . I said if you were to be plopped into Siberia, as you are right at this moment, you'd die within an hour because you are neither prepared nor equipped to survive in that environment. . . just as a human being taken from it's environment too soon is not prepared or equipped to survive in that environment.

Does putting you into a hostile environment (in which you will surely die) make you less human? Because if I'm understanding your argument, you're saying that putting a 4 week fetus into a hostile environment (in which it will surely die) makes it less human.

Yes, i know the developmental cycle of humans.

Again, i don't not dispute that the tissue is human. Nor have i stated that it is not human.

As you say yourself, 4 week old fetal tissue is not viable. And that is rather my point. Viability is what gives it life. It has nothing to do with it being more, or less, human.

 

[syrenn]

Why do you want us to make an argument we don't agree with?

A fetus is human. No more or less human then it was when it was a Blastocyst or that it will be when he or she reaches the ripe old age of 99.

The vast majority of us who are pro-life are not interested in punishing the woman or the abortionist for that matter. What we want is fewer abortions and ultimately zero abortions or at least as close as we can get to that number. We will probably never see anywhere close to that and as long as people such as yourself promote abortion on demand from conception through birth (if that is your position as it seems to be) then the hope of ever reducing the number of abortions is pie in the sky.

Accomplishing our goals through the threat of punishment may seem to some to be achievable, but for me, I don't think that will work. We have to undertake alternative methods which don't include the threat of punishment and quite frankly about the only way I can think of is through education and ultimately changing the hearts of women and men bringing them to accept that abortion is not the answer.

Immie

I don't disagree with you one bit. The goal is to not have so many pregnancies.

Stop ******* every Tom, Dick, and Harry without birth control

Take the pill, use a condom, wash with foam, stop being a slut. With these simple steps, you can avoid pregnancy.

Stop ******* every Tina, Donna and Harriot, stop being a man whore and use a condom.

Do i say anything to disagree with birth control?

 

[JBeukema]

Viability is what gives it life.

Viability is a meaningless subjective term.

You cannot survive without your gut flora


You cannot survive out of your environment


If I cut your femoral artery, you cannot survive without drastic medical intervention


None of these facts make you 'not a life'

How remain a twit, however

I'm sorry for you. Hopefully some day you can accept that you are a murderer, forgive yourself, and move truly move on.

 

[syrenn]

I don't disagree with you one bit. The goal is to not have so many pregnancies.

I've asked this before and don't know if it was answered (long thread)

Why?

Why in the world would anyone ever try to get pregnant only to end it? The goal of less unplanned pregnancies would be less abortions.