Why arent inner cities utopias?

[Annie]

#3 we had a lot of wusses, not "nearly every", but I'm ashamed of all of them.
Public schools are a disaster, mainly because of the unions. He supported until the day he died.
Clinton was smart enough to take a Republican idea and call it his own.

If Hillary wins, which you predict, I'll bow to you. How's that?

 

[Hamiltonian]

Public schools are a disaster, mainly because of the unions. He supported until the day he died.

I would greatly disagree with this. I know of many intelligent people that received a public high school and college education, and they seem to have come out of the system just fine.

 

[manu1959]

as an architect...licensed...5 years of university....graduate with honors...could have done better but I didn't buy books.....one year in Europe writing my thesis on architecture and its influence on the common man...25 years actually designing buildings....5 years as an apprentice carpenter....5 years as a city commissioner....I will tell you why cities suck....

Tonight I sat through a city meeting with seven of the dumbest people on the planet.....city commissions decide your fate and they are passing judgment on things they are not qualified to evaluate.

Go to a local commission meeting….you will see

 

[Avatar4321]

as an architect...licensed...5 years of university....graduate with honors...could have done better but I didn't buy books.....one year in Europe writing my thesis on architecture and its influence on the common man...25 years actually designing buildings....5 years as an apprentice carpenter....5 years as a city commissioner....I will tell you why cities suck....

Tonight I sat through a city meeting with seven of the dumbest people on the planet.....city commissions decide your fate and they are passing judgment on things they are not qualified to evaluate.

Go to a local commission meeting….you will see

I can believe that. Why dont you try to serve on the city commissions and raise the IQ 200 points?

 

[glockmail]

If Hillary wins, which you predict, I'll bow to you. How's that?

I will work to prevent that as much as you. But unfortunately it will happen.

 

[glockmail]

I would greatly disagree with this. I know of many intelligent people that received a public high school and college education, and they seem to have come out of the system just fine.

So did I. But the system has failed millions, and is getting worse. Vouchers can reverse this process. DPM was against them, as are most Damnocrats.

 

[Hamiltonian]

So did I. But the system has failed millions, and is getting worse. Vouchers can reverse this process. DPM was against them, as are most Damnocrats.

Well I guess it comes down to what you expect from the school system. As a student, school will always be what you make of it, whether it is private or public. The schools can't force students to learn. If a student doesn't want to try, he will not do well. I think it should be the goal of public schools is to be able to provide a good education to any person that wants one, and I think our public school system is able to do that. It is up to the parents to motivate the children to want a good education.

 

[Avatar4321]

Well I guess it comes down to what you expect from the school system. As a student, school will always be what you make of it, whether it is private or public. The schools can't force students to learn. If a student doesn't want to try, he will not do well. I think it should be the goal of public schools is to be able to provide a good education to any person that wants one, and I think our public school system is able to do that. It is up to the parents to motivate the children to want a good education.

I agree, parents need to take a more active role. And I think voucherrs help do that. Because it gives the parents imput on where their child goes to school and more say in how its run.

 

[Hamiltonian]

I agree, parents need to take a more active role. And I think voucherrs help do that. Because it gives the parents imput on where their child goes to school and more say in how its run.

Parents already have input in which school system they want by choosing which district to live in. That is not necessarily even a constraint, because I went to public school in a different state from the one I lived in.

I tend to not like vouchers. It means we'll need either additionally spending or to greatly cut funding to public schools, two things I am hesitant to do. In my experiences, decent private schools were a bit expensive, and I couldn't imagine their cost going down if the demand goes up due to the voucher program.

I think a different sort of voucher program would be much more helpful, and less expensive. I think that it is a great opportunity for students in high school to take college courses while they are in high school. Fortunately, my father worked at a University so it was free for me, and I received high school credit for it. I think we should concentrate more on fostering a connection between our local colleges and high schools, and provide vouchers if taking the college courses comes at an additional cost.

 

[Avatar4321]

Parents already have input in which school system they want by choosing which district to live in. That is not necessarily even a constraint, because I went to public school in a different state from the one I lived in.

I tend to not like vouchers. It means we'll need either additionally spending or to greatly cut funding to public schools, two things I am hesitant to do. In my experiences, decent private schools were a bit expensive, and I couldn't imagine their cost going down if the demand goes up due to the voucher program.

I think a different sort of voucher program would be much more helpful, and less expensive. I think that it is a great opportunity for students in high school to take college courses while they are in high school. Fortunately, my father worked at a University so it was free for me, and I received high school credit for it. I think we should concentrate more on fostering a connection between our local colleges and high schools, and provide vouchers if taking the college courses comes at an additional cost.

not all parents have the ability to choose where they live.

 

[Hamiltonian]

not all parents have the ability to choose where they live.

I went to a public school that was not in my district. I went to a public school that was not in my state. I don't think it is that big of an issue.

 

[The ClayTaurus]

not all parents have the ability to choose where they live.

How come this argument "works" for schools but not hurricane relief?

 

[glockmail]

Well I guess it comes down to what you expect from the school system. As a student, school will always be what you make of it, whether it is private or public. The schools can't force students to learn. If a student doesn't want to try, he will not do well. I think it should be the goal of public schools is to be able to provide a good education to any person that wants one, and I think our public school system is able to do that. It is up to the parents to motivate the children to want a good education.

In some districts there are schools full of students who don't want to learn, and no parental involvement. This is an environment that makes it impossible for the student that does want to excel to learn, and in many circumstances impossible for the student's parent(s) to send their child to an alternate school.

 

[glockmail]

Parents already have input in which school system they want by choosing which district to live in. That is not necessarily even a constraint, because I went to public school in a different state from the one I lived in......

That's usulally an option for middle America but what about the poor who are unlikey to have a choice where to live? It seems that if Liberals wanted to break the cycle of poverty they would support vouchers. And not just vouchers that you like but vouchers that the parents like.

I don't give a damn about schools or teachers, I give a damn about students.

 

[glockmail]

How come this argument "works" for schools but not hurricane relief?

Because there is affordable housing in many areas where hurricanes don't normally happen and the elevation is not several feet below sea level, but not many areas where there is both affordable houses and good public schools.

 

[Eightball]

I went to a public school that was not in my district. I went to a public school that was not in my state. I don't think it is that big of an issue.

Right in our progressive S.F. bay area you will find some very bad public schools where you and I would be very glad that we didn't have to attend.

You can be a real, "go getter" kid, but you won't learn much, because the classrooms are like zoos, where the teachers are just hired zoo keepers.

I'll name one, the East Palo Alto School District. Most new teachers or veterans will avoid trying for a job in that district if they can.

My Nephew, attempted to teach there as an Art Teacher. All he had to teach were little kids, from 3rd to 6th grade. Seem's like a job that wouldn't be that bad? Well, most of these kids didn't come from homes where the parents even cared whether their kid got an education or had a future in our society. Principals and teachers were just hired day care folks that tried to just keep kids seated. You want to teach them something? Well, if you can, you might have a minute percent of the kids that will respond, but the rest disrupt the classes so much that the ones that want to learn, don't.

Can you kick them out? Sure, but the district loses it's government moneys for every kid that isn't present. So you have this system that lives off the "Teats" of government to survive, yet it is only contributing to the dumbing-down of the children of a large geographic area.

Vouchers? A good idea, as this gives mobility to the parents to pick where they want their children to be taught. I think that the latter school district would go completey defunct, or would maybe lose 10-20% of their enrollment, as many of these economically disadvantaged families/parents would use those vouchers and get their kids into a school where the three R's are taught without hindrance.
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We have three grown, married sons. All three had some private school time in their earlier years. The oldest went into the public school system starting with his sophomore year of h.s.. The middle one started public school in his Freshman year of h.s.., and the youngest only received private school until the 4th grade and then entered public elementary school during the 5th grade.
*****
How did they do? Well, the oldest was hampered by numerous, serious physical problems, that caused him to miss school time while being in the hospital during H.S.. Never the less, he did graduate from H.S.. His grades were average. What's his life like now? He's married, has a 10 year old daughter and is about to adopt a 2 year old boy from the foster system. He/our son, has manual skill type jobs involving heavy, physical work. He's happy with his life, but wishes that he could do somethings over, such as school and be more serious about it. Hind sight is 20/20 you know.

Middle son, ended up at a H.S. that had what is called an open campus; meaning that students could come and go from the campus at will. For some students, this was no problem, for our middle son, this was a great opportunity to get into trouble and trouble he did. We made many trips to the dean's office, etc.. He eventually dropped out of H.S. in his Junior year. Did the school care? We did, but he didn't shine or stand out academically, so their loss wasn't a tear jerker. He his now a construction worker, and still doesn't have that H.S. diploma. He's married, and has a 4 year old son, and a 2 month old daughter. He and his wife are in a very strong marriage. Does he have regrets?........Oh, a basketful of them! Would he change things in the past and start over? In a heart beat! Can he right now? No. He's got to support and raise a family and stay committed to his wife. That's middle son's education right now. Learning to be a good dad, good husband, good provider, and just perservering.

Youngest son. When he left private school he was enrolled in a public school that was rated number 7 in California; number one being the best school. Did he do good? You bet. Classrooms were orderly, teachers were of high caliber and standards. Discipline was maintained, and parental support was unanimous. This school was just in an average middle class area of San Jose, Calif. This son went through middle school, H.S., State College, and is now in a medical/research Phd. program back East. He graduated Cum Laud from the State College, and was awarded full-ride scholarship to med school and research.
*****
What made the difference?

1. Not one child is a clone of another in the same family.
2. Every individual is endowed with a personality at birth, and along with that they must exercise some "will" in positive directions to achieve desired goals.
3. Parents must be supportive in a way that supports what the teachers are sending the kids home to do.
4. Parents need to continually be watchful that their "great" school follows good ethical standards, and is teaching with the aim of giving balance to their children's education/instruction. This may mean attending some school PTA, or board meetings to hold administrators accountable. Be ever watchful that your child's teacher is not politicizing the classroom in anyway. This is all-to common nowadays, as so many teachers are coming out of colleges that are very left-leaning progressive, and feel that it's a "duty" to set the children straight, despite parental influence.
5. If your child isn't doing good, get off your "butt" and talk to the school, i.e. their teacher or teacher's. Let the school know you as a concerned parent. Don't be a pest, but be pro-active in your kid's education if you see red flags in your estimation.
6. Don't defend your kid when they are actually being naughty!!!! I can't say this enough. Accountability starts at home, not at school!!! If they get expelled, or suspended, and it's because of bad conduct, don't hide in humiliation as a parent/s! Face the facts, your kid or kids are being just the way chose to be. Endowed with free-will! Now, you also must accept that you as a parent may have some responsibility in why your kid or kids have started faltering. Maybe you've been a model parent, yet your kid or kids haven't been model students. In fact maybe they have been "hell bent" on failing in every area academically and socially, in the school. That's a sad scenario, but it happens. You still have options, as parents. It's called, "tough love". It might mean just accepting what they/ your kid has done or is reaping as a result, and that's it. Parenting isn't easy. It doesn't mean beating them with "I told you so's", but be supportive in a way that teaches them to face the results of their decisions, yet gives them the "spark" inside to believe there is a possiblity to turn things around.
7. Again, there's only so much you, can do.
8. Schools in some areas of our country don't stand a chance, for most of the kids to prosper in a good environment. There just isn't that good learning environment. There will always be a few kids endowed with a measure of perserverance that makes us adults feel ashamed of our own lives. These kids will make it most likely.
9. What about the other kids that don't have that inner drive at a young age? Out of three sons, we had one, with that early, inner drive, the other two, just wanted to glide through school, and one just couldn't resist all kinds of temptations to leave the fold, and he paid dearly for it.
10. Actually most kids don't have goals, or that much inner drive when quite young. This drive can be "sparked" by a you or a teacher. I mean Teachers that actually enjoy what they are doing. They are well-paid, and have an actual interest in the future of those little "dough heads" that they have for 9 months.
11. Most kids just want someone/teacher, that is interested in them. Someone that points out and praises the few times they accomplish or even attempt to accomplish projects that are positive. One adult that praises one positive act in a child might be the one "jump start" in that kid's life that turns everything around.
******
All three of my sons were of high I.Q.. I actually think that the one that went to med school might have been the one that had the lowest of the three.

What made the difference? Son number 3 had a pliable personality, was willing to learn, and seemed to have a inner desire to learn. The other two, had a personality that seemed to fight the system in one way or another, and in varying amounts of intensity.
****
My Conclusion: Who's to blame?

Schools?
Parents?
Human Free will endowed in every child/student?
***
Put that mix together, and you may or may not have a lottery winner.

Remove one of those three from the mix, and you have something that isn't complete.

Schools must try to not leave behind the "average" kid. Often the "average" is a kid with so much potential, that it's mind boggling.

Parents must be proactive in their kids lives. They must not get so involved in their own personal lives that they ignore this life that they have brought into the world. Parental support, via love, and discipline, are integral with the school's job. Accountability is taught at home, not in a jail cell.

Free-will: That's the mystery element to the equation. You can't do much about that. One personality or individual seems to want to achieve, another doesn't so much. In some ways thats where parents need to be ever watchful and be the first-front in encouragement, and wisdom dispensed.
***
Public schools are not all equal, and in many cases are just darn-right impossible habitats for learning.
***
Government money can't replace or fill in for missing, home grown/taught ethics and values.

Prepare your kids to "work" the sytem, so that the system doesn't give them a working-over, and spits them out.

 

[Hamiltonian]

That's usulally an option for middle America but what about the poor who are unlikey to have a choice where to live? It seems that if Liberals wanted to break the cycle of poverty they would support vouchers. And not just vouchers that you like but vouchers that the parents like.

I don't give a damn about schools or teachers, I give a damn about students.

My family was between lower middle class and poor.

Education is a key to breaking the cycle of poverty. Don't make this about liberals and conservatives. I'm sure liberals want to break the poverty cycle as much as conservatives do.

Why do you think that vouchers will solve the problem? I can't really see them as a solution at all. Property prices and the quality of schools are linked you say, that living in good school districts is more expensive. Well with you voucher system, if you increase the demand for good private schools, that drives up their cost as well, and poor students won't be able to afford them even with a subsidized voucher. Even with a voucher system to subsidize school payment, the poor are not able to choose which school they want. You wind up with the richer families being able to afford the good private schools and the poor families only being able to afford the inferior schools again.

 

[Hamiltonian]

Can you kick them out? Sure, but the district loses it's government moneys for every kid that isn't present. So you have this system that lives off the "Teats" of government to survive, yet it is only contributing to the dumbing-down of the children of a large geographic area.

Vouchers? A good idea, as this gives mobility to the parents to pick where they want their children to be taught. I think that the latter school district would go completey defunct, or would maybe lose 10-20% of their enrollment, as many of these economically disadvantaged families/parents would use those vouchers and get their kids into a school where the three R's are taught without hindrance.

This is a rather long post, so I'll just focus on quoting this part.

Even private schools "live off the teat" of the tuition of the students attending, and wouldn't be any more likely to kick out students. I'll point out three quick conclusions that I think you're drawing:

1. The fault in the schools lies with the disruptive students. Even great teachers can't be good when they're being policemen.

2. These disruptive students tend to come from economically disadvantaged families.

3. It is the high concentration of disruptive students that makes schools bad.

When you leave school quality up to the market, you will have the same outcome. The rich will be able to afford good schools. The poor will remain concentrated in bad schools, and you will still have large numbers of disruptive students in bad schools.

 

[The ClayTaurus]

Because there is affordable housing in many areas where hurricanes don't normally happen and the elevation is not several feet below sea level, but not many areas where there is both affordable houses and good public schools.

So they're too poor to move out of a bad school district, but not poor enough to prevent them from relocating cities? Seriously?

 

[Eightball]

My family was between lower middle class and poor.

Education is a key to breaking the cycle of poverty. Don't make this about liberals and conservatives. I'm sure liberals want to break the poverty cycle as much as conservatives do.

Why do you think that vouchers will solve the problem? I can't really see them as a solution at all. Property prices and the quality of schools are linked you say, that living in good school districts is more expensive. Well with you voucher system, if you increase the demand for good private schools, that drives up their cost as well, and poor students won't be able to afford them even with a subsidized voucher. Even with a voucher system to subsidize school payment, the poor are not able to choose which school they want. You wind up with the richer families being able to afford the good private schools and the poor families only being able to afford the inferior schools again.

Right now if the State of California were to convert their per/student/monetary allotment into individual vouchers, every kid's parents could afford a nice private school education.

Right now the government money into public schools and their results is, "zero sum gain" in what level of preparedness for college or for just becoming economic contributors to our society at large is being turned-out at grade-level 12. The percentage of failings per capita are unacceptable.

Remember that Washington D.C. has one of the highest government monetary contributions per student, yet, they sorely lag, academically per capita student behind most of the country. Why?

Money isn't the utopian, one-answer, for education.

It starts at home. The schools that have the highest rates of academic achievement per capita students will be found in the areas of our nation where the students are being prepped at home with the "tools" of life in our society.

It's not the schools responsibility to teach ethics or our schools become zoo keepers.

As for the mention of politicizing in the classroom, it is present, and maybe it's dwindling away as a problem.
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I don't care if a teacher is a Marxist or a Libertarian. Just teach the three R's, and let the ethics and morals be reserved for the family. If the family doesn't support that area, then students who do have the support and don't hinder the in-class learning environment shouldn't be penalized by the one's that are lacking.

Should those sorely lacking be ignored? Hardly. Our local high school district actually has what is called a "continuation school" for those h.s. students that don't want to fit into the regular H.S.'s. This allows these students a chance to redeem themselves, and the environment is more strict, and not to forgiving.

Maybe, parents should be scrutinized(called to the carpet) in the area of how they are raising their off-spring. Are these parents supporting a peaceful learning environment via their discipline at home? Poor, middle class, Rich, black, yellow, brown, white.........These are not excuses for not establishing ground rules in your child prior to and during their tenure in the public school system.

We are a society that seems to not "own up" to our reasons for our failings. It's always, "them" that were born into opportunity, or they don't have to work the long hours, or it's them that don't endure one parent families.....etc.. We all are victims, and as long as we live in that "mire" we will hurt our children's chances of making it.